Don't Expect a V-8 in Next Gen NSX
- Thread starter nsxtasy
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I will save you the click and give you highlights....actually the bad news IMO.
"A senior Honda Motor Co . (HMC) executive said the No. 2 Japanese auto maker likely won't build a V8 engine unless it could improve the engine's fuel economy and emissions beyond the industry's norm.
Honda vehicles may be to create a propulsion system that combines a V6 engine with an electric motor to offer V8-like power."
All I can say is .... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
What a pile! Seriously. Their complaint is about gas mileage. Not weight, not size, not power, but GAS Mileage! Do we need to remind Honda that a Corvette with a 5.7 L V8 gets better gas mileage than the NSX!!
"A senior Honda Motor Co . (HMC) executive said the No. 2 Japanese auto maker likely won't build a V8 engine unless it could improve the engine's fuel economy and emissions beyond the industry's norm.
Honda vehicles may be to create a propulsion system that combines a V6 engine with an electric motor to offer V8-like power."
All I can say is .... NOOOOOOOOO!!!!
What a pile! Seriously. Their complaint is about gas mileage. Not weight, not size, not power, but GAS Mileage! Do we need to remind Honda that a Corvette with a 5.7 L V8 gets better gas mileage than the NSX!!
I'll withhold judgment until I see what they've actually got up their sleeve.
If they can produce a V-6 with electric assist (a la DualNote), and it can produce (just to throw out a number) 450 hp without weighing more than the current NSX, I'll be quite impressed, and in all likelihood, so too will the rest of the automotive world.
If they can produce a V-6 with electric assist (a la DualNote), and it can produce (just to throw out a number) 450 hp without weighing more than the current NSX, I'll be quite impressed, and in all likelihood, so too will the rest of the automotive world.
I don't car how they get the power as long as they get it. I think a V6 putting down near 400 would be perfectly fine.
In fact, they can have 4000 gerbils running on wheels for all I care, as long as the results are in line with current standards. I don't think they will disappoint. They may just find a unique way of doing it.
In fact, they can have 4000 gerbils running on wheels for all I care, as long as the results are in line with current standards. I don't think they will disappoint. They may just find a unique way of doing it.
4000 gerbils producing 400 HP. I would be impressed with THAT. That's 1/10 of a horsepower per gerbil.
Those would be some pretty big gerbals! Better keep Richard Gere away! LOL!!
But seriously, they will have to make a V8 for the nextgen, if for not other reason then for marketing and the perception of "keeping up with the Jonses" if the NSX is going to remain a flagship car.
If it was *ALL* about economy and emissions, why would Honda spend the millions upon millions it does every year with its various (V8) racing programs?
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 21 June 2002).]
But seriously, they will have to make a V8 for the nextgen, if for not other reason then for marketing and the perception of "keeping up with the Jonses" if the NSX is going to remain a flagship car.
If it was *ALL* about economy and emissions, why would Honda spend the millions upon millions it does every year with its various (V8) racing programs?
[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 21 June 2002).]
While, I'm still skeptical about a V6+IMA-like powerplant in a performance, I am confident Honda will come up with a suitable powerplant in the next NSX.
Personally, I think it's great that Honda does not see a V8 as the only option to more power. To me, this demonstrates that Honda, as a company, is still as innovative as it has always been, more than a decade after Soichiro's passing.
Just my $0.02
[This message has been edited by Ojas (edited 21 June 2002).]
Personally, I think it's great that Honda does not see a V8 as the only option to more power. To me, this demonstrates that Honda, as a company, is still as innovative as it has always been, more than a decade after Soichiro's passing.
Just my $0.02
[This message has been edited by Ojas (edited 21 June 2002).]
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Personally, I don't think that an eight banger engine over 3.6 liters belongs in a sports car. As the displacement increases, the hp per liter seems to go downhill quickly. The goal of a sports car should be light weight and supreme handling, but I think that the NSX may be too motorcycle-like in it's power delivery. If Honda can come up with a way to make torque off the line, before the hp comes in at high rpm, that would be half the equation.
Interesting... many people point to the Porsche 911 (996 series) as an example of a car that Honda needs to "keep up with"... it has a 3.4L 6 cylinder engine.
I don't think engine configuration or HP are as important as people think. My opinion is that people generally put too much emphasis on this, along with things like 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.
EDR
I know that the hibrid system is getting alot of press ,just look at the latest acura driver.My gut tells me the new car will be a 110-120 hp/liter v6 ~3.5 liters not too shabby.If they can attain s2000 like vtec in the bigger motor it will impress.Of course they could "glue" two s2000 motors together for a wonderful honker.After all the smoke and mirrors we'll be left with a fairly traditional powertrain on a new chassis.imo
As long as a girl is capable and loving why should it matter that she's from the US or Mexico...?
2.0L 4cyl. making 240 HP and 153 Tq.
x 2
= a 4L v8 with 480 HP and 306 Tq.
I like it
It's not about fitting all the gerbils into the engine compartment as much as how to clean up all the poop. Maybe it can drive the turbo and exit through the exhaust.... giving a new meaning to 'wastegate'. Who needs 0-60 when you can pummel the car behind you with steaming-300 degree-projectile-gerbil-berries!
Close your eyes and picture that for a moment.
Ok... it's obviously getting late. Time to go home.
[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 21 June 2002).]
Ok... it's obviously getting late. Time to go home.
[This message has been edited by ilya (edited 21 June 2002).]
That sounds self contradictory. If enough people an emphasis on it, then it is important, at least to the manufacturer. So if, as you believe, "generally put too much emphasis on this" then it is exactly "as important as people think".
But, Honda has avoided being trapped by that mind set and instead impress with hp/ltr and I would expect that to continue even if it means a somewhat larger V6.
As for dual power, no thanks. No one has managed a decent pounds/hp from any electric battery/motor combo so it is a given that overall weight would be heavier than otherwise necessary. Plus you need a place to put all that. Plus the added complexity and expense. Forget it, not for me. I want a sports car and I hope Honda isn't dumb enough to stop building one for the sake of publicity. They can build and sell zillions of dual-power cars, but it should never be more than an option on cars like the NSX and S2000.
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I seriously think that it will be powered by a six cylinder engine. I don't think that Honda likes the rev characteristics of the 8 & 10 cylinder cars. Placing a twelve cylinder engine in the car isn't economical, and an oval pistoned six that acts like a twelve is too big and heavy. Four cylinder four liter engine, anyone?
A sports car already exists that has the rough output of the equvalent of (2) S2000 2.0L engines mated together:
The Ferrari 360.
And it also has the eqivalent gas mileage too: 9MPG in the city.
I don't favor any hybrid technology in a sports car, no matter if it's Honda behind it or not. In my book, the closer a sports car is to either a Lotus Elise or a McLaren F1, the better, meaning minimalist/low weight/instant response should always be the goal. Colin Chapman got it right decades ago, and it still applies today. If it doesn't, then why aren't we all driving Supras?
This is also the same reason why Car and Driver and other magazines rate the Ferrari 360 higher on the sports car food chain versus the all-world Porsche 911 Turbo, even though the 911 is likely to be faster around a track. The 360 is more visceral, more responsive to driver input, and just more of what the enthusiast wants to feel/hear/experienece when going full-tilt in a modern supercar.
At this point I could car less about an all-new NSX, I'd be much happier if Honda just made the new NSX Type-R available for order over here at a decent price (say $80K).
The Ferrari 360.
And it also has the eqivalent gas mileage too: 9MPG in the city.
I don't favor any hybrid technology in a sports car, no matter if it's Honda behind it or not. In my book, the closer a sports car is to either a Lotus Elise or a McLaren F1, the better, meaning minimalist/low weight/instant response should always be the goal. Colin Chapman got it right decades ago, and it still applies today. If it doesn't, then why aren't we all driving Supras?
This is also the same reason why Car and Driver and other magazines rate the Ferrari 360 higher on the sports car food chain versus the all-world Porsche 911 Turbo, even though the 911 is likely to be faster around a track. The 360 is more visceral, more responsive to driver input, and just more of what the enthusiast wants to feel/hear/experienece when going full-tilt in a modern supercar.
At this point I could car less about an all-new NSX, I'd be much happier if Honda just made the new NSX Type-R available for order over here at a decent price (say $80K).
I think you're making an invalid assumption. Honda, even more than all of us put together, is well aware of the advantages of light weight. If there's one car company that's not likely to come up with a system that's going to make a car substantially heavier and therefore substantially slower, it's Honda. In addition to light weight, they also strive for fuel efficiency, which is hurt by light weight. They know they will be criticized if they come out with a dual-power car that's very heavy. But if they manage to do it and keep the weight down, it will be a laudable achievement. More power (without extra weight) is a good thing, however it's achieved.
Are you sure about that? I haven't kept track, but I thought that the current 911 Turbo is generally considered higher on the food chain by the car mags than the 360 Modena. And I'm not even talking about the GT2 version.
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 21 June 2002).]
Not if you read my post again where I said "...overall weight would be heavier than otherwise necessary." Meaning, that they can't possibly add additional power in the form of a second complete system (electric motor, batteries, and all the necessary hardware & wiring to accomplish the whole thing) and not end up much heavier than if they increased displacement and/or HP/ltr to get the same total output from a single engine. It isn't that they aren't talented, but they also can't build a perpetual motion machine.
Anyone have the curb weight of current dual powered cars?
DualNote "MuleNote" whatever you call it. I'm a traditionalist. Don't care for the idea, but it could be done. GE developed something called AC traction power for diesel engines in the Railroad industry. Its converted via generator from the motor and provides all wheel traction and actually saves weight from the older methods of power while increasing HP at the same time. Its been used for quite awhile. If they could incorporate this type of system for power to the front wheels @ 3000lbs it could rip asphalt, although its sound would be noticeable from the generator. Would rather see the new engine straight from the IRL specs as a base, and I think that what their gonna do. Win Indy in 03 with a new engine and give it to us in 04.
SORRY DOUBLE POST, ITS TIME TO GO TO BED, MAY ALL OF US BE BLESSED WITH 500 HP IN THE MORNING.
[This message has been edited by Tom Larkins (edited 22 June 2002).]
Civic Hybrid
MT 2661
CVT 2732
compare to Civic Sedan
MT 2421-2564
CVT 2471-2615
I still don't think they're going to come out with an NSX that's a pig, if that's your point. If they come out with a car with a great power-to-weight ratio, it will have great performance numbers and everyone will oooh and ahhh, and if it has innovative technology, so much the better. If they come out with a car with a so-so power-to-weight ratio, it will have so-so performance numbers and no one will care. I think they're well aware of this.
[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 22 June 2002).]
Only as sure as the September 2000 issue I'm reading as I type this...
C & D did a supercar roundup called "1224 Horses, No Cup Holders", and the 360 while losing each category in terms of speed measurements, beat the 996 T for first overall place in each of the various editor's personal voting.
They listed the reasons I mentioned in my post above as to why a machine that won each measured test could lose an overall roundup in their minds, and I totally agree.
It's not always about 1/4 mile times. Surprised that I'd have to state that on this particular forum....
I think you are all missing the real problem with hybrids. Apparently nobody read my post from a few days ago:
DualNote design only good on paper?
The electric motor/battery for hybrids is only meant to supplement the motor during intermittent acceleration. The system does not have the endurance of a plain gas engine. In fact, after only 5 minutes of WOT up a big steep mountain, the batteries will be depleted. At this point, you will be down to your base engine or worse, the car will be trying desparately to recharge the batteries and will steal power from the base engine to do it. Imagine AC lag but 3-5 times worse!
Although that might be enough to please those going to the drag strip, would you really be happy with only 5 minutes of 400HP on a track? Thats only good for 2-3 laps... Would you be willing to drive the rest of the event with only ~350HP?
Number9
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Just got the most recent Acura Style mag. Has an interesting article on the DN-X (i.e., DualNote) and ends with this teaser:
"Rest assured, in other words, that Honda is well on its way to creating a sports car without compromises - no ifs, ands or buts."
"Rest assured, in other words, that Honda is well on its way to creating a sports car without compromises - no ifs, ands or buts."
