do upsized 17/18 volk CE28N wheels perform as well as stock 16/17's?

[robbiedawg]

i'm wondering how performance (ie weight,ride, handling and acceleration) compares to the stock 16/17 setup. i don't want to upsize and have a slower car that doesn't handle as well. these are high quality wheels,and I think the total wheel/tire combo should be lighter than stock,but I wanted to see what peoples' experience had been. i'm also wondering what tire sizes people are running on these in 17x7.5" fronts and 18x9.5" rears ( sos standard sizes). thanks in advance,all.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Why don't you just compare weights? The stock wheel weights are listed on the wiki.

http://www.nsxprime.com/wiki/Wheel-Tech-OEM

Volks are forged so they are as strong if not stronger. That leaves your tire weights, which will probably be a bit heavier depending on the tire. So long as you don't increase weight you won't decrease performance, so long as you increase tire quality you increase performance. But on a street car the differences may not be as visible. 215/40/17 front and 255/35/18 rears. Don't use plastic hubcentric rings, and make sure you tighten lugnuts to OEM spec. If you can, get a ROAD FORCE balance on a hunter machine, and get an alignment to performance specs. The slight extra grip, slight lighter weight, and the performance alignment will combine to give you a much better feel.

 

[docjohn]

265 rears may open up more tire selection.

 

[TURBO2GO]

For the money you can't get much better than the Dunlop Star Spec ZII that just came out. But again... they will wear faster, ride harder, and be more noisy than other less grippy tires. Understand that ultimate track grip is not the equivalent of road "feel". After having run all kinds of tires like the bridgstones, Falkens, Dunlop Star specs, and Yokohama AD08 I think on the street most of these super grippy tires are overkill. Continental makes a great compromise tire with a lot better wear and ride and less noise and you will not miss the extra grip unless on a track. And for that you can get a set of R comps or slicks and kill the best street tire anyway.

I personally would probably get a set of these for a street driven NSX:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Continental&tireModel=ExtremeContact+DW

And you can go to a 265 rear on that. This tire is very responsive, so it has a great feel.

 

[docjohn]

ken is that you?:wink:

 

[TURBO2GO]

You know you can also get as light as the Volks with a flow formed wheel and spend a lot less than a fully forged wheel. Again, I think full forging is great if you are a serious track guy placing enormous stress on the wheels. For the street its mostly overkill. Just don't get cast wheels. An Advan RSII is a flow formed wheel as light as the lightest forged volks.

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ken is that you?:wink:

The pupil has surpassed the master.

 

[docjohn]

the enkei rpf1 I just got are also a good track wheel..but nsx fitment is a compromise.

 

[CB72]

I've been running on CE 28Ns for years and have been very happy with them.
I chose to have 17*8 upfront with the 38 mm offset to clear BBKs.
The rears are 18*9.5 but I forgot which offset?
Initially I was running with 215/40*17 and 265/35*18 tires but when I upgraded to Toyo R 888s I was forced to go with 235/40*17 upfront.
I was glad to have chosen the 8" wheels!

 

[robbiedawg]

thanks for the input guys.did anybody notice an annoyingly harsher ride,or slower acceleration from larger size wheels?i know the total diameter ends up being about the same,but you've got some weight a bit farther from the center.car and driver talked about this a few years ago-
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/effects-of-upsized-wheels-and-tires-tested
but that assumed larger wheels were heavier.lighter ones hopefully negate that problem.


btw,just for fun,i looked up list price on the oem wheels.... about $6000 for the four!

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Dave I am gonna disagree with you about forged wheels for street use. The big advantage of forged wheels is their incredible strength when compared to flow formed or gravity cast wheels. Forged is compacted and the molecules are aligned under immense pressure so the density is extremely high. This is really for street use more than track use since the road surface on track is usually better than street paving and drivers are more focused too. Take for example the fact that race wheels are not meant for street use and are weaker than their street counterparts because they save weight and can be replaced often.

 

[jwmelvin]

Forged is compacted and the molecules are aligned under immense pressure so the density is extremely high.

I believe forging increases strength through a phenomenon known as strain hardening, rather than an increase in density. That is less so for hot-forged products, which still benefit from characteristics of the grain structure resulting from forging.

In any event, it makes sense to me that wheel strength is especially relevant to street conditions.

-Jason

 

[Nero Tenebre]

Forged wheels are more dense and cast wheels are more porous. There is physically more metal in less space with forging.

www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/techpage.jsp?techid=90

 

[TURBO2GO]

Nero I didn't mean to say there is NO benefit, yes, forged is stronger for street as well, and holds up to potholes better as well. By track I am not talking about your average street car in a DE day. I am talking about race cars. They do put tremendous loads on the wheel. You can still bend a fully forged wheel. I've done it before on my cars. And I've also bent flow formed wheels. I'm just saying at some point there are dimishing returns for the dollars spent and I think flow forming provides near forged strength at a much lower cost.

To the OP.... Ride and acceleration are based on weight. Not size. If you don't increase weight, you will not decrease ride quality, handling, braking, or acceleration.

 

[jwmelvin]

Forged wheels are more dense and cast wheels are more porous.

While I question Tire Rack as an authoritative source, I wasn't aware of porosity reduction from forging. This is a highly informative paper: http://www.jim.or.jp/journal/e/pdf3/45/06/1886.pdf

In particular, figure 6 shows the porosity reduction from forging. Pretty neat. Thanks for the motivation.

 

[Midnight_Raven]

To the OP.... Ride and acceleration are based on weight. Not size. If you don't increase weight, you will not decrease ride quality, handling, braking, or acceleration.

Not necessarily Dave, if mass stays the same the further the distance from the axis of rotation it is, the larger the moment of inertia gets. That's why most beams are shaped like "I" vs just being "|" because the mass being furthest away from the centerline makes it more difficult to rotate. Simple formula for Inertia is I=mr^2.

 

[MrHugo]

Not necessarily Dave, if mass stays the same the further the distance from the axis of rotation it is, the larger the moment of inertia gets. That's why most beams are shaped like "I" vs just being "|" because the mass being furthest away from the centerline makes it more difficult to rotate. Simple formula for Inertia is I=mr^2.

I believe so, and that is a reason why most believe that NA1 Clutch (Twin Disc) is better than NA2 (Single) because most weight are closest to the center-line comparing to the single clutch. Right?

 

[TURBO2GO]

Not necessarily Dave, if mass stays the same the further the distance from the axis of rotation it is, the larger the moment of inertia gets. That's why most beams are shaped like "I" vs just being "|" because the mass being furthest away from the centerline makes it more difficult to rotate. Simple formula for Inertia is I=mr^2.

LOL... I know this, and I said to myself "watch someone will nitpick what I just said"... and sure enough... LOL... I am trying to keep things simple and basic and at a level where it makes a realistic difference. You are replacing 1/2" of distance from the center with weight from a tire, to weight from a wheel. The wheel is actually usually lighter than tire material especially the sidewall. For practical purposes, what you are stating has no real world difference and may actually be a benefit to the larger wheel if anything. Though technically, your statement is correct.

 

[nsxbuilder]

I too have had the CE28Ns for years, 17x8 and 18x9.5 and have done 60k miles on the road and a good 1000 on the track with both stock rims and the Volks, there is no downside to running the bigger wheels once you've got the adjustable suspension and sways, you kind of pick your ride quality and handling dynamics, and while a part of it, the thinner wheel is not as noticeable a thing for me. I love their light weight and look - its the way it should be.

 

[raytrix]

^ thats some meaty tire.

 

[robbiedawg]

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BUMPING MY THREAD TO ASK A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT QUESTION-I UNDERSTAND THE BIGGER LIGHTER WHEELS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY ADVERSE EFFECT ON PERFORMANCE.WHAT ABOUT CHANGING THE QUALITY OF THE ORIGINAL HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I AM RELUCTANT TO CHANGE WHAT THESE FINE ENGINEERS,WITH AT LEAST SOME HELP FROM AYRTON SENNA,CAME UP WITH.IF I GO WITH,SAY THE 17/18'S FROM SOS,THEY ALSO HAVE A DIFFERENT OFFSET FROM STOCK.WILL THAT ADVERSELY AFFECT HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE OR MESS THAT UP FOR BIGGER WHEELS,EVEN IF THEY LOOK GREAT AND EVEN IF THEY ARE LIGHTER,WHICH COULD MARGINALLY IMPROVE RIDE AND ACCELERATION.I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT WHEELS AND OFFSETS TO KNOW HOW STEERING FEEL AND HANDLING WOULD BE IMPACTED.

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[stuntman]

It'll typically be improved with the larger wheel, wider stance, wider tires, more grip, and shorter side-walls. I wouldn't get into the whole "OEM's know best" thought process, but technology has come a long way since the NSX was designed in the late 80's. Personally I like the performance, handling, feel, and look of 17/18 setup and there probably a lot more choices than a 16/17 setup (although I don't look at those sizes).

 

[NSXCessive]

Bumping my thread to ask a slightly different question-i understand the bigger lighter wheels should not have any adverse effect on performance.what about changing the quality of the original handling and steering feel.i am reluctant to change what these fine engineers,with at least some help from ayrton senna,came up with.if i go with,say the 17/18's from sos,they also have a different offset from stock.will that adversely affect handling and steering feel.i don't want to change or mess that up for bigger wheels,even if they look great and even if they are lighter,which could marginally improve ride and acceleration.i don't know enough about wheels and offsets to know how steering feel and handling would be impacted.

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BUMPING MY THREAD TO ASK A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT QUESTION-I UNDERSTAND THE BIGGER LIGHTER WHEELS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY ADVERSE EFFECT ON PERFORMANCE.WHAT ABOUT CHANGING THE QUALITY OF THE ORIGINAL HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I AM RELUCTANT TO CHANGE WHAT THESE FINE ENGINEERS,WITH AT LEAST SOME HELP FROM AYRTON SENNA,CAME UP WITH.IF I GO WITH,SAY THE 17/18'S FROM SOS,THEY ALSO HAVE A DIFFERENT OFFSET FROM STOCK.WILL THAT ADVERSELY AFFECT HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE OR MESS THAT UP FOR BIGGER WHEELS,EVEN IF THEY LOOK GREAT AND EVEN IF THEY ARE LIGHTER,WHICH COULD MARGINALLY IMPROVE RIDE AND ACCELERATION.I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT WHEELS AND OFFSETS TO KNOW HOW STEERING FEEL AND HANDLING WOULD BE IMPACTED.

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BUMPING MY THREAD TO ASK A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT QUESTION-I UNDERSTAND THE BIGGER LIGHTER WHEELS SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY ADVERSE EFFECT ON PERFORMANCE.WHAT ABOUT CHANGING THE QUALITY OF THE ORIGINAL HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I AM RELUCTANT TO CHANGE WHAT THESE FINE ENGINEERS,WITH AT LEAST SOME HELP FROM AYRTON SENNA,CAME UP WITH.IF I GO WITH,SAY THE 17/18'S FROM SOS,THEY ALSO HAVE A DIFFERENT OFFSET FROM STOCK.WILL THAT ADVERSELY AFFECT HANDLING AND STEERING FEEL.I DON'T WANT TO CHANGE OR MESS THAT UP FOR BIGGER WHEELS,EVEN IF THEY LOOK GREAT AND EVEN IF THEY ARE LIGHTER,WHICH COULD MARGINALLY IMPROVE RIDE AND ACCELERATION.I DON'T KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT WHEELS AND OFFSETS TO KNOW HOW STEERING FEEL AND HANDLING WOULD BE IMPACTED.

I do believe your over thinking this I've been running Volk LE28N's (CE28N) in 17/18's I purchased back in '03 mainly street driven I've had them on '91 and not '00 NSX-T. I have to agree with Billy larger wheel, wider tires offer more grip. All I can say is I've had them over a decade and they still look like they were just put on the car, timeless design an amazing wheel all around your not going to notice much of a difference if your streeting the car. Every season I switch back and fourth from OEM 16 & 17's during winter storage and usually drive on OEM for a few weeks until I swap back to the Volks. In terms of acceleration and handling it minimal and not much of a difference, but if you go to 18 & 19's then your rolling diameter changes a lot and tinkering with Offsets with great variance from stock and you will notice a difference in acceleration and handling. Also don't forget Honda ditched the 16/17 with 17/17 in '02+ models so don't feel you have to stick to 17/18's you could run 17/17 and 18/18 all 4 corners.

Some pics of my car: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/127732-My-2000-Berlina-Black-NSX-T

 

[robbiedawg]

THANKS,GUYS,OVERTHINKING IS ONE OF MY SPECIALTIES, I OFTEN MAKE THINGS TOO HARD.SO IF I RUN THE SOS 17 X 7.5 AND 18 X 9.5 CE28 N'S SHOWN HERE-
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exterior_performance_products/NSX/Rays/Volk/mono-block/ce28n/

MY TIRE SIZES SHOULD BE 215/40-17 F AND 255 0R 265/35-18 R, CORRECT? THAT WOULD ALLOW YOU TO RUN DIREZZA ZII'S, ADVAN NEOVA AD08'S OR AD08R'S,WHICH KEEPS SOME HIGH PERFORMANCE TIRES IN THE MIX. YOU GUYS THINK THAT COMBO WILL HANDLE AND STEER FINE, NO NOTICEABLE DETRIMENT FROM STOCK BUT AN IMPROVEMENT?

AND THEN WHAT OFFSETS ARE BEST TO GET? THANKS ALL.

 

[docjohn]

The only minor fly in the whole oem tire /steering feel ointment is that the original yokos and maybe bridgstones were unidirectional tires meaning they were each unique to a corner and produced some scrub that increased steering feel...don't know how that feels anymore since i long left the stock wheels/tires.

 

[stuntman]

I do believe your over thinking this I've been running Volk LE28N's (CE28N) in 17/18's I purchased back in '03 mainly street driven I've had them on '91 and not '00 NSX-T. I have to agree with Billy larger wheel, wider tires offer more grip. All I can say is I've had them over a decade and they still look like they were just put on the car, timeless design an amazing wheel all around your not going to notice much of a difference if your streeting the car. Every season I switch back and fourth from OEM 16 & 17's during winter storage and usually drive on OEM for a few weeks until I swap back to the Volks. In terms of acceleration and handling it minimal and not much of a difference, but if you go to 18 & 19's then your rolling diameter changes a lot and tinkering with Offsets with great variance from stock and you will notice a difference in acceleration and handling. Also don't forget Honda ditched the 16/17 with 17/17 in '02+ models so don't feel you have to stick to 17/18's you could run 17/17 and 18/18 all 4 corners.

Some pics of my car: http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/127732-My-2000-Berlina-Black-NSX-T

FYI - 19x10 TE37s and Advan RGs weigh the same as stock 17" rear wheels.

Robbiedawg - Try unclicking the caps lock and i'd go with a 17x8 front and either a 215/40-17 or 235/40-17.