Your kidding..........right?
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Your kidding..........right?
I think it is plausible that Honda concluded that the odds of a fully drained HV are so remote that the design solution is "flatbed to dealer." The HV battery would have to be "dead dead" to not be able to start the car. I wouldn't be surprised it the car starts sending you texts if the HV SoC drops below safe storage level (which would be WELL above the juice required to start the car).
Also, if you're going to park to car for several months, you probably know that in advance. It would be nice if you could force the car to charge itself to optimal storage charge (prob about 70% SoC) to extend the safe storage time. Maybe this is simply driving around in Track mode for your final pre-storage drive.
Also, if you're going to park to car for several months, you probably know that in advance. It would be nice if you could force the car to charge itself to optimal storage charge (prob about 70% SoC) to extend the safe storage time. Maybe this is simply driving around in Track mode for your final pre-storage drive.
Based on my experience with my RLX this is a non-issue if you drive or start the car on a regular basis. The hybrid batteries charge either from brake regen or from the ICE, thus car must be started or moving to charge the battery. You are correct that the ICE starts up from the big hybrid battery, not the 12v battery.
In short, since the ICE is one charging source for the hybrid battery, starting the car regularly during periods of long storage (once a month?) should help in theory.
This is relevant to me because I use my CTS-V as a warm weather daily driver and the RLX can sit for two weeks or more at a time, outside. Never had a problem restarting it after that short a time, and if I planned long storage, starting it up monthly would help.
Would be ideal if Acura had another way to charge the hybrid battery externally, though, just in case.
In short, since the ICE is one charging source for the hybrid battery, starting the car regularly during periods of long storage (once a month?) should help in theory.
This is relevant to me because I use my CTS-V as a warm weather daily driver and the RLX can sit for two weeks or more at a time, outside. Never had a problem restarting it after that short a time, and if I planned long storage, starting it up monthly would help.
Would be ideal if Acura had another way to charge the hybrid battery externally, though, just in case.
I think it is obvious that before long term storage/lay-ups, the Li Ion Battery sys. should be topped off. Perhaps best with MILD driving in track mode since, I believe, that attempts to keep them topped off as much as possible. And realistically, Li Ion by design should hold charge well over time. (But How well?) Only the E motors use it (we assume) so parasite drains should all be only on the 12V battery. And starting the ICE is not as demanding as propelling the car with many ponies. But at 56 ponies, that motor alone (w/o consideration of the attached ICE ) is going to require some serious inrush current. Most motors require a brief inrush current of ~ 5 -7 times running current to just start.
I live in N/E. When I put a toy in storage/lay-up , it typically remains as such with only a tender on Battery. I do not believe in routine starts while in layup if it is to remain that way for just several months. If I'm going to start a car up, then it should be run (and rolling) for some time to heat all components to operating temp and then for some time more, else risk issues from moisture build up etc. If car is on a lift (I keep several on lifts over others) it is not desirable (let alone far from convenient) to shift a lot of toys around to start and run them (each) during winter. Even on good weather days, there is still a lot of nasty residual chemicals on roadways which I don't want on the pampered toys.
As mentioned above, an RLX will be fine as the ICE does not have a EM attached and requires a conventional 12V to start the ICE... just like my '05 RL.
With all the extended engineering and debugging (& related delays) ACURA has put into this HALO car, I'm sure (or hope) they have considered plenty variations of storage/lay up and hybrid battery degradation issues. Hopefully ones well beyond those we can conjure up. With so little info publicized, we are stuck guessing at issues an solutions.
Many of which may be moot if they have been addressed to point of being a non issue or easily to resolve. And YES, I agree a way to maintain Hybrid Battery charge externally (via plug in) is optimal. Something similar may be needed to address Jump Starting ?
I wonder how difficult would it have been to incorporate a standard starter (as a back up) into the rear drive propulsion system. Though that would be added weigh and complexity they (and many others) prefer to leave out. (Hmmm how how about a Model T like crank we insert to manually turn it over... sorry I couldn't resist)
OK, I give up. we'll just have to wait until someone at ACURA can answer the questions.
I may see what my dealers NSX tech or NSX sales rep can look into. Maybe some others can do similar, or ones with connections can do better?
I live in N/E. When I put a toy in storage/lay-up , it typically remains as such with only a tender on Battery. I do not believe in routine starts while in layup if it is to remain that way for just several months. If I'm going to start a car up, then it should be run (and rolling) for some time to heat all components to operating temp and then for some time more, else risk issues from moisture build up etc. If car is on a lift (I keep several on lifts over others) it is not desirable (let alone far from convenient) to shift a lot of toys around to start and run them (each) during winter. Even on good weather days, there is still a lot of nasty residual chemicals on roadways which I don't want on the pampered toys.
As mentioned above, an RLX will be fine as the ICE does not have a EM attached and requires a conventional 12V to start the ICE... just like my '05 RL.
With all the extended engineering and debugging (& related delays) ACURA has put into this HALO car, I'm sure (or hope) they have considered plenty variations of storage/lay up and hybrid battery degradation issues. Hopefully ones well beyond those we can conjure up. With so little info publicized, we are stuck guessing at issues an solutions.
Many of which may be moot if they have been addressed to point of being a non issue or easily to resolve. And YES, I agree a way to maintain Hybrid Battery charge externally (via plug in) is optimal. Something similar may be needed to address Jump Starting ?
I wonder how difficult would it have been to incorporate a standard starter (as a back up) into the rear drive propulsion system. Though that would be added weigh and complexity they (and many others) prefer to leave out. (Hmmm how how about a Model T like crank we insert to manually turn it over... sorry I couldn't resist)
OK, I give up. we'll just have to wait until someone at ACURA can answer the questions.
I may see what my dealers NSX tech or NSX sales rep can look into. Maybe some others can do similar, or ones with connections can do better?
LiPo batteries put out a LOT of juice and tend to explode when they short out. As a result, cars are designed to physically isolate the HV battery via air-gap relays when not in use / during crash. So the HV battery is essentially "unplugged" when sitting in garage. So: good news, no parasitic loss. Bad news: hard to monitor or "trickle charge" (even if car had a charger built-in, which I don't think it does).
I assume that with a proper starting SoC (say 70%), the car can sit for many many months without any problem from the HV (although your 12V will prob die before that).
I really think we're talking about an extreme edge case here: hard driving in Quiet mode to draw down SoC of HV battery near its safe minimum, followed by shutting off the car and storing it for many many weeks. Even in that situation, the primary danger is to the HV battery from being over-discharged. This can permanently reduce capacity. That's the main concern. By the time the HV is so dead that it can't crank the ICE, I think you're bigger problem is that you've damaged your HV battery. The flat bed to the dealer is not what makes that day a bad day.... Remember that the "exposed" SoC window is not the true chemical/electrical window. Meaning that a reported 0% SoC is not really "dead dead," but rather the minimum safe discharge level. I suspect that, even at a reported 0% SoC, you could still start the car in an emergency.
Agree that it's all speculation. But, given that they aren't building my car or telling me any new information, it's a decent way to pass the time.....
I assume that with a proper starting SoC (say 70%), the car can sit for many many months without any problem from the HV (although your 12V will prob die before that).
I really think we're talking about an extreme edge case here: hard driving in Quiet mode to draw down SoC of HV battery near its safe minimum, followed by shutting off the car and storing it for many many weeks. Even in that situation, the primary danger is to the HV battery from being over-discharged. This can permanently reduce capacity. That's the main concern. By the time the HV is so dead that it can't crank the ICE, I think you're bigger problem is that you've damaged your HV battery. The flat bed to the dealer is not what makes that day a bad day.... Remember that the "exposed" SoC window is not the true chemical/electrical window. Meaning that a reported 0% SoC is not really "dead dead," but rather the minimum safe discharge level. I suspect that, even at a reported 0% SoC, you could still start the car in an emergency.
Agree that it's all speculation. But, given that they aren't building my car or telling me any new information, it's a decent way to pass the time.....
My ignorance showing here but what does SoC mean?
I'd imagine the car's electronic monitoring would put up plenty of warnings about a low charge in the hybrid battery
The 50 hp electric motor would act as a generator when the hybrid battery is low correct?
As the hybrid motor turns with the ICE wouldn't starting the car and letting it idle charge the hybrid battery?
This might be something as simple as idling the car for 20 mins in the garage every three months or so.
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State of Charge I believe
In my industry it would be Standard of Care
In my industry it would be Standard of Care
You guys are about to be Hybrid owners. Gotta get hip with the lingo and the sanctimonious attitude. Here's a tutorial:
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SoC = State of charge. Sorry. Too much time on the Volt and i3 forums.
The charging rate from a cold idle in the BMW i3 and Chevy Volt (even in a mode where the car's objective is to ADD charge) is very low. Perhaps the NSX will be different and/or configurable. Various explanations have been offered as to why the other cars refuse to charge themselves: (i) don't want to load ICE until fully warmed up; (ii) not enough air flow hen stationary to cool a loaded ICE; (iii) consumers will be confused with behavior and will freak out; (iv) consumer could be in an enclosed space and this behavior would violate safety standards for carbon monoxide poisoning / etc; and (v) inconsistent with brand image of economy/efficiency (perhaps not applicable to NSX), as the behavior is inherently less efficient than any other way to power the car (Gas-->ICE-->Generator-->Battery then Battery -->Motor, with no regen possible and round-tripping electrons through the battery).
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To correct Gadgetman: In the RLX Sport Hybrid, the ICE and main hybrid battery ARE connected, and the hybrid battery starts the ICE up.
Preliminary word I got was in total agreement The Kid's info on 1'st page. Start the car and run for 30 minutes (in any mode) while still, at max of 3 month intervals. So the only work the ICE is doing then is driving the rear moto/gen to charge or top off the LI battery. Word I got is if they go dead (for time lapse unknown at this time), they could die and need $$$ replacement ! A bit of a hassle (pending where and how car is stored) plus need to ensure that area is well ventilated for safety. It is what it is... for now anyway.
They should offer a built in hidden plug and optional HV charger ... but I hate to guess what THAT option/accessory would cost us based on mats and 12v charger!
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Sorry Neuronbob
My Bad.
I forgot the the RLX DOES have a front elec motor and thought only rear had elec.
In my defense I think morning coffee wore off and I need a beer to re-waken the brain cells.
They should offer a built in hidden plug and optional HV charger ... but I hate to guess what THAT option/accessory would cost us based on mats and 12v charger!
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Sorry Neuronbob
My Bad.
I forgot the the RLX DOES have a front elec motor and thought only rear had elec.
In my defense I think morning coffee wore off and I need a beer to re-waken the brain cells.
I agreed with everything else. I am simply glad to see that the "open beta" we RLX owners did for ya will yield some dividends in the NSX project. I only wish i could adjust my financial priorities to include a new NSX Sport Hybrid. I'll be a 2nd or 3rd owner in a few years.
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Thanks for the video chrisn.
In Chicago, most of the hybrids are Taxis and those drivers haven't picked up their smug licenses.
I have had my Q50S Hybrid for nearly 3 years and had to Google SoC, oops.
In Chicago, most of the hybrids are Taxis and those drivers haven't picked up their smug licenses.
I have had my Q50S Hybrid for nearly 3 years and had to Google SoC, oops.
Quote from Popular Mechanics:
"However, Ford has also brainstormed what might happen if a customer drives too far and depletes the propulsion battery: On early Escape hybrids, the battery compartment contained a "bump start" electronic module that could actually siphon electrons from the 12-volt battery used to start the car, or a parallel 12-volt battery attached by jumper cables to a running car, and charge up the main 330-volt drive battery enough to start the gasoline engine. Ford, however, found that there has never been a case of the main battery depleting itself so far that it couldn't fire up the gasoline engine, even after freezing the vehicle for two days at minus 30 C in Alaska, and so it removed the module on newer hybrids, battery engineer Pat Maguire says"
Will be interesting to learn how Honda is tackling this.
"However, Ford has also brainstormed what might happen if a customer drives too far and depletes the propulsion battery: On early Escape hybrids, the battery compartment contained a "bump start" electronic module that could actually siphon electrons from the 12-volt battery used to start the car, or a parallel 12-volt battery attached by jumper cables to a running car, and charge up the main 330-volt drive battery enough to start the gasoline engine. Ford, however, found that there has never been a case of the main battery depleting itself so far that it couldn't fire up the gasoline engine, even after freezing the vehicle for two days at minus 30 C in Alaska, and so it removed the module on newer hybrids, battery engineer Pat Maguire says"
Will be interesting to learn how Honda is tackling this.
I owned a 2003 Civic Hybrid and it had a small backup starter for situations where there was a failure. It had to be used once when my hybrid battery pack was dying (later replaced under warranty) and the starter noise frightened me! It normally started completely silently. I think NSX 2.0 will be fine 
I think they did. The new NSX has no spare tire.
I know that lots of new cars have no spare tire but that's not much consolation if you're stranded.
I've been reading the owners manual that Bruce Winter has just posted a link for.
On page 434 it shows how to jump start your NSX.
I read into that we don't have to worry about the hybrid battery etc. to get the car running.
Here is Order submittals Details/Stats as of ~ near end of May '16.
Interesting mix.
Based on stats, I'm guessing Nord Gray would be the collectible color in distant future due to minimal ordering (so far anyway) which I'd assume would lead to it being dropped in following production years?
Regardless, I 'd hope most buyers will order their personal color of choice and not based on guessing what might or might not be desirable by others in future. Heck, it will look grand in all colors schemes.
Interesting mix.
Based on stats, I'm guessing Nord Gray would be the collectible color in distant future due to minimal ordering (so far anyway) which I'd assume would lead to it being dropped in following production years?
Regardless, I 'd hope most buyers will order their personal color of choice and not based on guessing what might or might not be desirable by others in future. Heck, it will look grand in all colors schemes.
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Thanks again Gadgetman,
I love chewing into data.
Here are some knee jerk perceptions:
Nord gray will be replaced in the future
I would have thought more black cars would have been ordered
Over half went with the interwoven wheel
Red calipers are ruling at 70%
The customers are going conservative for the interior with almost half opting for the all black but red did well at 1/3 of orders
I am surprised that saddle didn't sell better, low orchid sales are expectable it will be tough to keep clean
Only 5% skipped the power seats.
Alcantara is beloved, 65% take rate for the seats and near 80% for the headliner
The take rate for CF is also huge; 70% for the interior, 60% for the engine cover, near 60% for the roof (adding the XM and non XM together)
Around 90% took the upgraded hifi, nav, sensor combo with the vast majority including XM (not me)(for reference, only a couple of the 170ish US LFAs didn't have XM)
I love chewing into data.
Here are some knee jerk perceptions:
Nord gray will be replaced in the future
I would have thought more black cars would have been ordered
Over half went with the interwoven wheel
Red calipers are ruling at 70%
The customers are going conservative for the interior with almost half opting for the all black but red did well at 1/3 of orders
I am surprised that saddle didn't sell better, low orchid sales are expectable it will be tough to keep clean
Only 5% skipped the power seats.
Alcantara is beloved, 65% take rate for the seats and near 80% for the headliner
The take rate for CF is also huge; 70% for the interior, 60% for the engine cover, near 60% for the roof (adding the XM and non XM together)
Around 90% took the upgraded hifi, nav, sensor combo with the vast majority including XM (not me)(for reference, only a couple of the 170ish US LFAs didn't have XM)
The stats are tilted for Alcantara on seats as you have to get that with 2 of the 4 colors. I was and remain bummed I could not get saddle in full leather for a more classy vs sporty look. Since I have no track plans I have no need for extra grippy seats. Oh well. I was surprised with large XM orders. With the audio connectivity for smart phones I see no need for the added expense including script. Maybe I feel that more since it performs poorly in my N/E hilly areas and becomes quite annoying with fade in and outs... even on many highway streches.
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