Dealer sues customer over messages posted on Message Board!

[rcarlos]

I have to say I don't think the kid, his name is George, did anythink wrong except to blast the dealer a little more than necessary considering the damage done. And yes you should get the same service at the dealer as the next guy, even if you bought somewhere else. I have complained about every dealer I went to but not publicly, and I went back to most of them because what they did was not so bad and/or they are the only dealer for 300 miles.

So this guy complained a little too much and the dealer, by suing, has earned the scorn of everyone who was ever wronged by a dealer, and that's a lot of people.

[This message has been edited by rcarlos (edited 21 November 2001).]

 

[Nsxotic]

I suspect if the dealers always skipped the haggling, they'd be in tough shape, eh? I totally understand what you are saying, but seriously, how on earth could the dealer just say ok to everyone's offers? Do customers just say yes when the dealer shows them their number first? No. I'm on your side Kenric, but how could this happen on a negotiable item? It can't. If it were a one price item and someone tried to negotiate, then you could just say yes or no. Negotiation can be friendly, try to make it fun. Otherwise offer them addendum price and you won't have to bother negotiating.

Right?

------------------
Todd Arnold

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html

 

[NSXocto]

So now I understand a bit better.

The problem with the automotive business model is that the repair tech can race into jobs to get paid say 14 hours in an 8 hour day.

Why not leave things unfixed that will be hard to fix ... like little rattle or something. Or rushing might break something or dent something or scratch something.

Also you bring up a good point. Service Writers are the guys that need more control. I get tierd of having to negotiate a new clutch when I almost fall over the first time they tell me how much it is going to cost.

I think the weak link in the auto industry is the Tech and Writers not getting their pay tied to there preformance.

 

[Ag NSX]

I just want to get a decent price. If my research had shown that the vehicles were going for $500 over invoice, then I would have offered that. I'm all for good negotiations as long as they don't involve lying or insulting your intelligence. Unfortunately, many salespeople don't have the ability to negotiate without doing it.

This is a really bad example, but it really happened: When looking for a NSX, one salesman said, "we don't have any here but we have a Legend coupe in black with a Type 2 engine". I said, "that's not even in the same ballpark." He said, "You'd be suprised, that's pretty quick!" I said "sure" and left.

 

[KGP]

Originally posted by NSXotic:

Salesmen, Sales managers, Finance managers, GSM's and GM's get whacked, why not techs and service writers...........?

Originally posted by NSXocto:

I think the weak link in the auto industry is the Tech and Writers not getting their pay tied to there preformance.

You guys are forgetting something here! Does the word UNION mean anything to you?

[This message has been edited by KGP (edited 22 November 2001).]

 

[NSXocto]

Union? See I never thought about that.
I keep digging and I keep learning.
There has to be some useful info I can use next time I have to deal with a dealer. This is good stuff.

The rushing thing is most intersting to me so far. Last time I got my car back it had a big deep crack in the platic around the mirror. I wonderred why car always seemed to get banged up when I took it in.

Also I have gotten use to asking for one thing at at time. When I'd ask for 4 or 5 little tiny things to be checked on a new car, they would never get to them all. I started taking cars in and asking for just for one thing and hope to get it done right.
(again the rushing against the clock thing makes this all fit together) so many dealers seemed to but it off would rather have me keep bringing a car back in, rather then really take time and fix it right first time. You know... the old "I didn't hear any rattle" or the "well it worked fine when we tried it"

 

[sjs]

I'll reframe from the 300 or more pages I could right on the subject of customer service and how businesses in general are run today. However, I am going to hit a few highlights and share one relevant experience. Bored already? Well, at least read this next part, it's a hoot.

The first time I needed a state safety inspection after having lowered my NSX, I made an early morning appointment at one of the two local Acura dealers, the same one that inspected it the last time and from whom I had bought a few hundred bucks worth of parts in the past. So, I arrived early and waited for them to open up. By the time the mechs got in and the service person got me processed I was already getting a bit impatient (work awaited) but no big deal. I let them know the car had been lowered and might be tough to get on a rack. No problem, they "dealt with lowered cars all the time". I was pleased that they took it in stride and mentally gave them one gold star.

The mech came for the car and pulled it in the garage. Sure enough, it wouldn't clear the lift. He then asked another guy to move a car that wasn't being serviced at that moment so he could use that lift which was different and probably shorter. While they hunted for the keys I went for a soda. When I returned, my car was sitting over the lift with arms spread wide. Apparently the lift pads were still too tall to swing under the car. There were four guys lined up along the driver's side, two per wheel well, with their backs to the car and their hands wrapped around the fender lip. The morons were about to lift that side of the car by the aluminum fenders!! Have you ever had a fender off an NSX, or pulled the plastic liner from inside a rear wheel well? The aluminum is very thin and can't possibly withstand the force necessary to lift one side of the car. Unfortunately, I managed to stop them (very politely). Unfortunate because neither of those panels is all that nice and free new ones would have been great. Anyway, I then offered the suggestion that they grab any stock scissors jack, from a used car on the lot if necessary, and in a few seconds per corner we could get the lift arms under it no problem. The mech excused himself to speak with his boss, who returned and said that they weren't able to help me and I'd have to take it somewhere else. He complained that they don't make any money on state inspections as it is and this was just too much trouble. We talked a bit and I informed him of their near attempt to lift the car by the fenders, but his only response was that they would have covered any damages. (Sure, if I noticed before I left and could prove it.) Then the lady service writer joined the conversation and assured me they had worked on plenty of them and had to lift them the same way. BS!!! So, now they score a zero for service and a zero on credibility.

I regret that I still have not written the owner of the dealership and the national Acura customer service department. Which leads me into my other points.

A tired old cliché amongst service and retail businesses. "For every person that a happy customer tells about a good consumer experience, an unhappy customer will tell ten people about their negative experience." I've always doubted that such convenient round numbers were based on scientific studies, but the point was no doubt valid. Unhappy people are much more vocal than happy ones. Clearly, the web magnifies the potential damage by dissatisfied customers to levels never before imagined. Power to the consumer!!! Of course there will be abuses along the way, but I disagree with anyone who writes that kid off as just a whiner who should have shut up. The real problem is that too few people bother to speak up. The other day I was at KFC for lunch by 11:30 and the rush was just ramping up. The soda machine was out of CO2 and the ice hopper was empty. I got the manager's attention and he went to get the soda (no ice) from the drive-up window area. The diet was out of syrup. I embarrassed my colleague by suggesting to the manager that it might make sense to check these things before the rush started and all I got was lame excuses that the ice machine was full just a while ago. My grunt made it clear that I didn't believe him and he mumbled something else as he got back to work. On the way out I offered to bet my colleague that there would be lots of ice in the machine at 11:30 the next day, and the rest of the week. He wisely declined.

Another cliché, in education and business alike, (especially low paying service oriented businesses) is that "if you expect more from people, you will get more". The truth is, there will always be a significant percentage that can't be motivated by anything short of a cattle prod, if then. However, I am a firm believer that a reverse twist on that cliché proves extremely accurate. If you expect less, you will almost certainly get it. With rare exception, even the good employees will eventually perform below their ability if they are unmonitored and not held accountable, as will most students. That same principal is at least as true for most businesses as a whole. The more consumers accept mediocrity the lower the bar gets. Even those companies making an honest effort to monitor customer complaints are lulled into complacency when they cease to get feedback that alerts them of possible problems. My point is, if we as consumers don't speak up when there are problems, we are doing everyone a disservice. It is so evident in everything from restaurant food to customer service from the worlds largest companies. I am constantly amazed at how poorly trained and informed most employees are, even those few making a sincere effort to be friendly and helpful are typically incompetent or at least ineffective.

And yet, in many ways we as consumers are also our own worst enemy for what we do expect. We want everything dirt cheap, and right now. We constantly send the message that we are willing to accept crap if it's a little cheaper than the next option. For example, how many people plunk down the money for one of the worlds greatest sports cars and then settle for crappy tires because it saves them a few hundred bucks per year, only to spend it instead on pieces that add nothing but flash to the car. (Yea, yea, to each his or her own, but you get my point.) If everyone buys junk, how long do you think they'll bother to make true performance equipment? People are also increasingly willing pay ridiculous sums of money for trendy designer junk regardless of real quality or value.

Well, I for one am ready to start paying more because I'm damn sure going to be demanding more.

End Rant.

 

[Nsxotic]

Very well said.

By the way, KGP, the large majority of auto dealers do NOT have unioned employees. Some do, of couse, but they could still be whacked for bad CSI.

------------------
Todd Arnold

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html

 

[Lud]

I do not care about cheap, I care about honesty, good work and quality service. That doesn't just apply to cars - I do not go to Wal-Mart for the same reasons. I do not haggle or complain about prices as long as I the work or product is good. In fact I am happy to pay extra for a product or service I know is very good.

I've never haggled a car beyond two cycles of offer/counter-offer. If we don't come to an agreement after the second round, I look elsewhere. I understand that it's just business. I don't take it personally.

The service guys usually don't even have to troubleshoot things; I have the skill, I simply do not have the time or all the tools to do the work myself. I am HAPPY to pay for quality service; if I wasn't, I would spend the time and buy the tools to do it all myself. It's just that it is becoming increasingly difficult to FIND quality service even though I would be HAPPY to pay a premium for it.

NSXOTIC says most dealerships have the customer's best interests at heart. That may be true in a vague "I hope all our customers are happy" way, but I honestly do not believe it is true when it comes down to brass tacks and, for example, the Service department screws something up. Then the emphasis quickly switches to "cover our ass" and "get the customer to pay for it" at every dealer I've ever personally dealt with.

What would change my mind about the average car dealer? I just were to have personal dealings with ONE, just ONE dealer who, either in Sales or Service, would never FLAT OUT LIE to me. Some of them do it for absolutely no reason at all. I'll walk into the showroom while I'm waiting for some quick maintenance on my NSX (oil change, etc.) and the sales guys will start lying to me.. Example: I was getting an NSX oil change at an Acura dealer near Monterey, CA during NSXPO '99 and walked into the showroom while I waited. The sales guys start flat out lying about how their regional sales manager had officially briefed them on the new NSX and it would be here in 2001 and it would be a V8 and 400HP, etc. Yeah, I read the same magazine speculation you guys do; why lie to me and try to make it sound official just to make conversation? I've had the same "inside info on the next NSX" crap from Acura sales guys at two other Acura dealers (and I don't even go to all that many Acura dealers!) How many of these sales assoiates even know how to properly open and close the engine compartment on an NSX? I could probably comfortably entertain in my living room every Acura sales associate in the country with enough product knowledge about the NSX to take a potential customer on a basic walkthrough of the car. That is a pathetic way to represent your flagship supercar to the general buying public. Why do they deserve a comission - what value have they added?

Every service department I've dealt with is either incompetent or lies and tries to make me pay for their error whenever things do not go well. Example: I had my springs/shocks changed out earlier this year at an Acura dealer. The dealer charged WAY more (probably at least twice as much) as the job would have cost at a number of other places, but they are the only local Acura dealer so I didn't sweat it, I just wanted it done right. Well, the service tech forgot to install the bushings which act as a "stopper" for the shock body on all four corners. This is nothing aftermarket-related, there are OEM parts. The result was an over-tightened shock which sheared the mounting bolt off the shock assembly and some cosmetic damage (luckily not to any painted surfaces, though it easily could have been). The dealer called and tried to blame ME because they were aftermarket shocks and told me the problem was they did not come with all the necessary parts. I knew what they had done wrong from the explanation of the problem, so I got my camera and went down there. The camera made them really nervous. I asked them explain exactly what the problem was and then to pull up the parts diagram. After much resistance I got them to agree that yes, it was an OEM part they had left out and no, it wasn't really my fault and I shouldn't have to pay labor on a suspension job twice plus replace the brand new shock they had broken as they had originally insisted. This was just the latest example of a number of similar incidents I've had over the last couple years with this dealer. They used to be good so I kept trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but now I will never, ever go back to them for anything. My car is under warranty, but I will have it flat-bedded to Barney in Tennessee if it ever needs major warranty work.

If I did not know as much as I do about cars, I probably never would have known I was about to be taken advantage of in most cases. I've had girlfriends who are lied to and over-charged for service more often than not (literally - more than half the time), simply because they does not know cars very well, and thus they are a huge target for being ripped off. I've dissected their invoices and gone back and gotten them a large refund for BS charges several times. Things like selling them all new brakes (rotors, lines, etc.) when all they needed were pads on one axle, etc. These are things I consider to be flat out criminal! How would you feel if you had a minor illness but your doctor told you that you had cancer just so he could charge you for the more expensive treatments??? It is really just SICKENING.

Heck, we see it from other NSX owners on these message forums and mailing lists all the time. The guy whose ABS is running too often and the dealer, without doing any troubleshooting, says the entire ABS system has to be replaced. The parts guys who are too ignorant, lazy or crooked to find out individual part numbers and insist that a part can only be purchased as part of a very expensive assembly when it is in fact available for a couple bucks by itself. The owners who have to use information from the NSX mailing lists or websites to save themselves hundreds or even thousands of dollars in unnecessary parts-swapping.

We even put up with the systemic rip-off from dealers who are not able or willing to repair NSX transmissions, a policy encouraged Acura because they know so many of their dealer service shops really can't do it quite right and it will result in too much customer dissatisfaction and re-work. Well dammnit, it's an Acura car and it should be their responsibility to have people trained to fix major $5000+ mechanical assemblies. Next will we have to only swap entire engines out so the "technicians" don't have to open them up either? "Sounds the valves are out of adjustment; that'll be $22,000 for a new engine."

I KNOW good dealerships are out there like Acura of Brookfield. I know there are good independant service shops like Mark Basch. It's just that in my entire life I have never personally dealt with one or known of one where I feel don't feel I have to double check everything they tell me. I have found a local shop with good mechanics who, while they don't know the NSX, can do what I request so I am sticking with them. But I think it is absurd that I should be afraid to take my top-of-the-line Acura to my Acura dealer.

I believe YOU are a good guy NSXOTIC, but I do not know the rest of the people at your dealership so I can only say that I hope and want to believe your dealership is one of what appear to me to be the few good ones.

I am really a pretty laid back guy. If I sound angry in this thread, it is because I have been treated so poorly by every car dealer I have experience with at some point and I am flat out sick of it. Unfortunately I know I am not alone in my experiences, as is evident from the enormous response to the thread on VW Vortex which started this topic.

 

[NSXocto]

So it looks like the old saying…
"Power Corrupts… absolute power corrupts absolutely"

If Lud didn't know about the bushing (and most of the car buying public wouldn't have known ) then the dealerships employees would have made him pay for their mistake.
Why? "Because they can"

Why did the guy lie about the new NSX to Lud?
When you get use to thinking you know all, an the customer knows nothing… you get condition to lie, before you would tell the truth. Its not that you want to do anything bad…. But the conditioning…esily leads you down a slippery slope. (not all but many)

I've been in sales before and found myself getting better and better at always making the sale! but it didn't feel right. I started to notice that telling a lie was not as bad as losing a sale. So I got out of the sales business. Success had come at a Moral price, and that is not my personality… but the nature of the work took me there. I was ambitious and an ambitious salesman… well…after enough practice I had too much power and it was too easy to abuse it.
I was not in the car business. But same kind of sales. And I worked for a company with an Outstanding reputation for treating the customer right, educating the customer, and putting the customer first. And with all that going for us… ambition still leads to the slippery slope when your salary and advancement in the company depended on your sales figures. Life is so much better now that I don't work in a sales type position.
Sales jobs can be great... but the company I worked for tore us apart by saying "treat the customer right but sales dollars are how you will be judged".

What is the average guy to do? As cars get more complex the dealers knows he can say anything and the customer won't have a leg to stand on.

So they get use to feeling like they know all and the customer knows nothing.
Then you mix in the motivation to make a buck. …"Money Corrupts….

So I guess are best course of action is to become very smart, and do their job for them…
( look up the parts numbers, reminder notes "don't forget the bushings")

As the VW case shows… A big car dealer can mistreat a single customer, unless that customer has- Great wealth, publicity, or connections.

Do all dealers do this? NO
Do all sales guys have trouble not telling a lie? NO
But it sure is a slippery slope that so many fall down.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by Nsxotic:
...By the way, KGP, the large majority of auto dealers do NOT have unioned employees. Some do, of couse, but they could still be whacked for bad CSI.

Must vary from place to place. Around here a non-union dealership is extremely rare. One of the few folded a while back but mostly because the owner (a friend) was ready to retire and the people who bought it ran it into the ground in record time.

 

[Nsxotic]

It is very much by area actually. Overall throughout the country, it is less common to be unioned.... But that still shouldn't affect how CSI is dealt with by it's employees.

------------------
Todd Arnold

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html

 

[Jim]

I think the bottom line is the VW guy has a right to complain. The dealership took an offensive position, rather a defensive position because they know he is right! They know the things he said were probably true so now they are bitter and want to sue him. Just imagine for a moment the dealership responded on the forum and apologized to the guy, in front of the whole forum. If they made this one guy happy and kissed his butt (weather they think he is right or wrong) they would look really big in the eyes of their customers for doing that. Then, the guy would of told the forum “The dealership rectified everything and made me happy, gave me no charge on this, etc.” But we all know that wouldn’t happen in a million years.

A few years ago, I had my Z flatbedded to this Nissan dealership. I had been there many times and had given them a lot of business. Anyway, when I went to pick up my car a few days later, both front turn signal assemblies were stolen and some of the wiring was ripped out due to the thief’s hastiness. I believe they were stolen because the thief knew they were the JDM lights and not the US lights. Okay, so I dealt directly with the service manager in ordering me a new set and fixing the wiring. In the end, I eventually got everything replaced and fixed but with a lot of delays and inconveniences. When it was all said and done, they never even gave me an apology.

I wrote a nice (not hostile) letter to the owner of the dealership telling my story and to let him know I was not unhappy that something of mine got stolen (it will happen) but how I was very unhappy on how his staff treated me, especially the service manager. A lot of time rolls by and still no apology or acknowledgement from the dealership after my letter. I then wrote a letter to Nissan Corp and sent them a copy of my letter I sent to the dealership. Of course, they said that dealerships are independently owned and operated and that they have no control over them but they gave me $100 credit towards service at any Nissan dealership (I guess something is better than nothing). After I wrote the letter to Nissan Corp. I magically got a call from the dealership! Some high level manager gave a very weak apology (finally!). He went on to say “this was the first time anything got stolen from our dealership”. I continued to converse with him, telling him my whole story and then the funniest thing he said was “oh yeah, I just remembered….some other customer with a Z got his tires stolen here recently”. I just laughed inside. What a joke.

 

[nsxtasy]

NSXOTIC says most dealerships have the customer's best interests at heart. That may be true in a vague "I hope all our customers are happy" way, but I honestly do not believe it is true when it comes down to brass tacks and, for example, the Service department screws something up. Then the emphasis quickly switches to "cover our ass" and "get the customer to pay for it" at every dealer I've ever personally dealt with.

the guy would of told the forum "The dealership rectified everything and made me happy, gave me no charge on this, etc." But we all know that wouldn’t happen in a million years.

A few points here...

1. I feel that the best test of the level of customer service is not when things go right, but when things go wrong. Granted, things should go right all the time - service performed as promised, no problems at all. But things happen, for one reason or another. When something goes wrong, a customer service oriented business will go out of their way to keep its customers satisfied. Examples below.

2. There ARE good dealer service departments around (more on one of them below). I've used several of the Acura dealers in the Chicago area and they run top-notch service departments. Perhaps service is better in a big metro area of 8 million people because there's more competition... but that doesn't explain why there are also top-notch dealer service departments in towns like Milwaukee, where there is only one Acura dealer in town. I think the bottom line is that some dealers have terrific service departments, some don't. Lud happens to have had consistently bad luck, perhaps (but not necessarily) due to geography. I've had consistently good experiences.

Here are two examples of the level of customer service I've received from the Acura dealer where I take my NSX:

Example A (particularly relevant because of the discussion above regarding "charging by the book" - charging based on the number of hours the book says something should take, rather than actual hours) - I came in first thing in the morning for a repair job to be performed while I waited. The bill showed more labor time than the amount of time I waited. When I called it to the service manager's attention, he mentioned the book rate thing and asked me what I would like them to do about it. I told them I would like to pay for the amount of time that they actually worked on the car, so they adjusted the charges to do that.

Example B - I went to the dealer to have my NSX trunk struts replaced, per our pre-arranged appointment. Dropped the car off, got the usual free loaner. They called me later that morning to tell me that they had ordered the proper part, but they had been delivered the wrong part (the engine compartment hatch struts), so they couldn't perform the repair. (They also mentioned that they would have pulled the struts off the car in the showroom except it was a later NSX that didn't use the same part.) They gave me the choice of either (a) leaving the car with them for several more days, so they could get the proper part and install it, or (b) picking up the car at the end of the day, unfixed - and when the part came in, they would send their tech to my house to install it on my NSX. I needed the car so I chose (b) and that's the way we handled it. I should also mention that this dealership is on the other side of the Chicago area, 50 minutes away, further from my house than four other Acura dealers. I have spoken with many of their customers and I know that I am not receiving any special treatment; they treat ALL their customers this way.

But I feel the key to a successful business-customer relationship is that both parties need to be able to understand each other's situation, and be able to deal with each other respectfully, and be prepared to "give and take" and work things out if and when any problems arise.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
... But I feel the key to a successful business-customer relationship is that both parties need to be able to understand each other's situation, and be able to deal with each other respectfully, and be prepared to "give and take" and work things out if and when any problems arise.

Great stories and great points, but sometimes it's a little like trying to treat Bin Laden with respect and understanding.

I've been around it for decades. I've been a wrench, a parts guy and a new and used car salesman. No offense to those of you in the business, but frankly, a great many of the owners and top management of dealerships aren't the brightest bulbs on the tree, and they tend to be positive Neanderthals in terms of really understanding customer service issues, and even worse at training their staff to understand it. That's just how it is, and why the good ones stand out.

 

[Jim]

They dropped the lawsuit on Wednesday:

"This morning Jimmy Ellis, Vice President of Jim Ellis Auto Dealerships ordered that the lawsuit against Mr. Mantis be dropped. He has called for a meeting with Mr Mantis and his attorney to attempt a resolution. We hope that we can resolve this issue that has been upsetting to all parties. Any comments are welcome to [email protected]"

 

[Lud]

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
But I feel the key to a successful business-customer relationship is that both parties need to be able to understand each other's situation, and be able to deal with each other respectfully, and be prepared to "give and take" and work things out if and when any problems arise.

For this to work, both parties have to care.

 

[sjs]

Originally posted by rcarlos:
I do not support this whiner. The mistake the dealer made was accepting an appointment from him. He did not buy the car there, prefering to shop elsewhere, so maybe he should take his VW to the dealer he bought it from....

I keep coming back to this one and it really annoys me. As others have already correctly pointed out, every dealer is obliged to treat all customers the same regardless of where they bought the car. Period. Given what he already stated were his reasons for avoiding the sales staff at that dealer, why in the world should he have gone there when he bought the car? I applaud the fact that he was willing to go elsewhere rather than take the easy way out, but as he also explained, it simply is not practical to go back there for every little service item. The morons at the nearby dealership should have recognized this as a real blessing because they were getting the easy profits, and a chance to redeem themselves to a customer who obviously went out of his way to shop elsewhere. What they should have done when they got the second chance was ask themselves and the customer why he felt that was necessary, and try to fix the problem. But no, instead the stupid chuckleheads proved he was right all along. Now some people are siding with the dealer that obviously doesn’t have two living brain cells to collide with each other and proved it yet again by filing suit. Aaaaaaarrrrrrrgh!!!!!!

 

[sjs]

Before someone takes issue with my comment that a dealer is required to treat all customers exactly the same, what I meant was that they are obliged to service the car of every customer without prejudice based on where the car was purchased. Obviously they are free to take extra measures and give perks to valued customers, but the basic minimums of courteous service and quality work must be extended to all. Sadly, a great many ingnore this fact.

 

[H-carWizKid]

Originally posted by Nsxotic:
If you offered me $10 for my tie that costs me $9.95, I could do the deal. But is it the deal I want to make? No. So, I'll ask you for $13.

I understand this simplified example, but there are so many other factors involved in an actuall deal on a car that I feel like your black/ white example is missing the enormous fields of grey that are associated.
For instance, do you have any "hold back " on the tie? How about "Dealer cash", or "incentive money". Is your cost really $9.95 if we consider these things? And don't get me started on rebates.
The fact is that the automotive industry has turned the car dealer into a scapegoat. Think about it, your primarily dealing with the little guy representative (The Dealer)from a billion dollar industry. Does that dealer make a billion a year? No he does not, but we as consumers associate one with the other.
Since we make this assumption we also feel entitled to releive them of any and all profit, but as Nsxotic eloquently points out, the dealer is not in business to give away all his profit.
As for the accusations of Salesman being pathological liars I submit this; When I sold cars, and finance I was called a liar more times than I care to remember, even though I was representing the truth in every aspect of a deal. Many times the customer would not accept the truth, and would in fact lie to get an answer they wanted ie: "I can get this for (insert fantasy number here) over the state line, but I want to deal with you...yada, yada, yada.." when in fact I have a friend that manages at said dealership (we all meet at factory ride-and-drives people...) and the deal there was the same as the deal I am offering... THAT IS A LIE people, that is someone misrepresenting the truth for their own benefit, and in this case it was the customer. It happens every day at every dealership.

Where the industry has made villans of dealers is through the over complication of the financial relationships made in every deal. The "Behind the scenes money" that is known as "Holdback" that customers now think is part of the profit available for the taking in negotiations. When the dealer won't give it (they use that money for floor plan) The customer walks and tells the whole internet how badly he/ she was treated. Rebates have created suspicion about how much dealer cost really is, even though those numbers can be easily accessed via the internet.
I submit that it is the way that we consider dealerships that causes the whole debate. A little research on your part exposes liars, and vice versa. I also submit that if consumers want honesty, then they should give honesty.

If they think they have a happy customer, they'll take the short deal.

When in sales I managed a 99.9 CSI score. I tried to make the experience fun, I put minds at ease, I dealt with people as I wanted to be dealt with. I also turned away customers who would buy, but not be satisfied. The reason was this "I don't need the headache". If a woman came in with a chip on her shoulder because she was a "woman trying to buy a car". I would walk her around her favorite model in detail, then I would explain that I was happy to show her all the factors a consumer should take into account when buying a car, based upon the reaction I got, I knew how to proceed. If the customer went hostile, I turned her over to Carol (our female senior sales associate)And split the deal. Carol and I had an arrangement, and it worked out well for both of us. If someone gave me a "hard time" I turned them over to the assistant sales manager, since that is who they really wanted to deal with anyway. A turn over ment slim deal, small commission. I had no problem with that, as long as I ended up with happy customers, and a good survey. Don't get this post wrong, I did the majority of my deals right from my own desk, where I kept lists of invoices on every model we carried, I worked with the customer based upon actual cash value on their trade, and percentage of allowable profit over invoice.
There were a lot of smiles in my office, and I have photo albums of pictures of happy owners with their new cars. I can tell you, if the customer was there to have fun, and buy a car they wanted, I was going to sell it to them. If a customer was predisposed to anger... forget it, not worth the effort, or the sacrifice, because as Todd says CSI is where the money is, not profit per unit.

Phil



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[Nsxotic]

Thanks for the support, Phil.