Dealer sues customer over messages posted on Message Board!

I do not support this whiner. The mistake the dealer made was accepting an appointment from him. He did not buy the car there, prefering to shop elsewhere, so maybe he should take his VW to the dealer he bought it from.
As far as the service results he had I cannot comment as I wasn't there.

[This message has been edited by rcarlos (edited 20 November 2001).]
 
I hope some of you other NSXers read this. very interesting, hopefully some other dealers will read and learn from it. I had a bad experience at my local Acura dealer. Ron Tonkin Acura. I can say the NSX tech was good never had a problem with him. But I would not personally take ANY other car there. What happened to mechanics? There is a difference. It seem that techs know how to replace things, they don't know how to diagnose and repair. I hope this guy wins his case. Its gotten over 32000 views.

Rcarlos,
When you buy a car your warranty doesn't say you can only get your car serviced by the dealer you bought it from. You should be able to take your car to any dealer and get the same level of care and customer service. The problem isn't that the dealer is unhappy with the guys statements. The problem is that they sued him for telling others of his misfortune.

[This message has been edited by nsxxtreme (edited 20 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by nsxxtreme (edited 20 November 2001).]

[This message has been edited by nsxxtreme (edited 20 November 2001).]
 
rcarlos - I disagree

This kid is a student. He shopped around to get the lowest price. That what I did when I was a college student.

The dealer has many complaints if you read the thread. This kid just opened the flood gates and a storm is brewing from ever person that has ever watched his car sit at the dealer for two or three days, just to get it back and its still not fixed.

What you are seeing is a turning of the tides. No longer can dealers screw over the little guy. The web now gives the little guy a voice.. and this thread that takes 2 hours to read is proof of the pent-up frustration!
 
I reread the post and I stand by my statement that he should have taken his car to where he bought it. I know the warranty is good everywhere.
It will be interesting to see how this all works out. The dealer must have a ton of money and business to risk a lot of it with a lawsuit. Maybe he had enough of customers who push too hard. What was the big problem in this case, a couple of greasy fingerprints, an alarm problem that was solved, and no free loaner. Maybe diagnosing and fixing warranty problems is a money losing part of the business and is not worth it to a dealer who did not benefit from the sale.
 
I haven't read this post yet but just by your comments so far...... I tend to agree with rcarlos. Sounds like the customer is just another whiner who expects the world to stop for him. The only thing that is incorrect is the part about the selling dealer. He certainly didn't need to bring it there and as far as the dealer not having the benefit of the sale part.......... There is no benefit of the sale. Dealers typically make very little on a new car sale anyway. The service of the car under warranty will most likely make more money for the dealer than what was made on the sale. ok, I'll shut up now and go read this thing.

------------------
Todd Arnold
NSXotic.gif

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html
 
Ok, I just read it. What a whiny little baby!! Yikes. Sounds to me that outside of not pushing the CD player into the dash the extra 1/8", they did fine. So they got a little backed up and had to reschedule, big deal. The kid was doing fine whining about his experience. There was no harm until he decided to start a petition to get everybody to call the BBB. This he cannot do. They will eat him alive arguing that others filed complaints just to stick up for their fellow owner. What a moron.

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Todd Arnold
NSXotic.gif

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html

[This message has been edited by Nsxotic (edited 21 November 2001).]
 
Originally posted by Nsxotic:
Ok, I just read it. What a whiny little baby!!
Click to expand...


How much of the 13+ pages of messages could you have read in 12 minutes??
rolleyes.gif
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wink.gif



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates

[This message has been edited by lemansnsx (edited 21 November 2001).]
 
I read all his posts and scanned some of the others, wise ass.
wink.gif
Clearly just trying to follow through with his threat to 'let everyone know how he feels' crap.

Push in your CD player a little, fix your own damn rattle if you're so sure where it's coming from, take a Kleenex out of your faggoty little handbag and wipe off the mechanics fingerprint and dry your eyes too, go to a different dealer next time and SHUT UP about it!

------------------
Todd Arnold
NSXotic.gif

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html
 
All I can say is that if that is the worst VW dealer in the country, they have Acura beat BY A LONG SHOT. I have personally experienced FAR WORSE from an Acura dealer with my NSX.

However, I believe the lawsuit is completely inappropriate. His statements were fact and customer opinion, not libel.
 
Originally posted by Nsxotic:
I read all his posts and scanned some of the others, wise ass.
wink.gif
Clearly just trying to follow through with his threat to 'let everyone know how he feels' crap.
...go to a different dealer next time and SHUT UP about it!
Click to expand...

wiseass? Hey, I resemble that remark!

Yeh, I agree, he's whining about some pretty minor issues - hey, I've had a dealer ruin an engine and I didn't whine about it to the BBB.
Having said that - this dealer is an idiot. They could have fixed this for, what, less than $100.00?? Morons.



------------------
Andrew Henderson
The NSX Model List Page

"We have long acknowledged that enthusiasm for things automotive is a sure
sign of emotional instability if not outright dementia" - Brock Yates
 
Originally posted by Lud:

However, I believe the lawsuit is completely inappropriate. His statements were fact and customer opinion, not libel.
Click to expand...

I agree. He may be a whiner, but he has the right to post what he did. The problem I have is the dealer filing suit because of what the guy said in his post. If all this guy did to the dealer was the negative thread, the dealer has problems much bigger than that. Imagine if everyone on bbs systems had a suit slapped on them every time they spoke negatively about something.
 
Originally posted by Nsxotic:
I read all his posts and scanned some of the others, wise ass.
wink.gif
Clearly just trying to follow through with his threat to 'let everyone know how he feels' crap.

Push in your CD player a little, fix your own damn rattle if you're so sure where it's coming from, take a Kleenex out of your faggoty little handbag and wipe off the mechanics fingerprint and dry your eyes too, go to a different dealer next time and SHUT UP about it!

Click to expand...

Personifying dealer image….
 
My take on this is that, he had originally scheduled an appointment for something to be fixed and nothing was done at that time. Then he scheduled another one the next week, rented a car and the when he got the car back, the problems weren't fixed.

For some of us, dropping off the car at a dealer is no big deal. For others, like me, it takes alot of planning. If I leave my car at the dealer, I need to either rent a car, get a loaner, or ask friends to pick me up and drive me back. That's fine with me because I don't think a dealer's responsibility is how a customer gets there to drop off and pick up the car. But, I would be very upset if I did that and found out they had done nothing to my car during that time. I would also complain to the dealer and expect them to then to 'help me drop off and pick up my car.'

However, how the situation goes from there depends on the dealer's response. If he was apologetic I would accept and reschedule (hoping it would be done the next time). If he was making excuses it would definitely inflame me more and things would go up a notch. Just like in this case.

The reason this thread is so interesting is that there is not one post saying they received good service at JE, every post on the thread about service there is negative.

PS. Some of you may recall I posted here last year about a horrible experience I had at an Acura dealer just trying to get an oil change. I've never been back of course.
smile.gif



[This message has been edited by Ag NSX (edited 21 November 2001).]
 
Have you ever seen more then 100 car clubs coming to one topic and joining a board because they feel so strongly about something!? This is the first time I've seen all the web come together and make a dealer drop his case. What have we really seen here?

People have always wondered if car dealers can control the media because they buy so much advertisment in the newspaper and on the local news? Does that give them the strong-arm to get away with a little more then other business men can?

I know there are good car dealers and a few bad ones. And I know there are good customers and a few bad ones. But until today I would have said the dealer always had the upper hand over one little customer?

Maybe today we have seen a small step in the other direction? Funny how much effort it takes to get Corp. America to notice

(and maybe this was unfair, maybe this guy was just a cry-baby, and the car dealer just got screwed)...but regardless.. we have seen a movement, and a new case-study in Business.
 
If nothing else, that entire episode really underscores just how much hostility many people harbor towards most car dealers. If it was an over-reaction, it was brought on by the way the car sales and service industry as a whole has treated customers over the years.
 
I wonder why we have this problem?
On a industry level

If I look at HMO health care industry.. I undertand- They encourage Doctors to with-hold care and the Doctor gets a bigger profit. The industry calls it "holding prices down". If your Loved One has cancer and needs a test fast, you might call it something else.

How is the Auto industry set up? Do the Car companines keep the dealers profit margins so low on new car sales that the only way a dealer can stay in business is by charging a lot for repairs ( I could live with that). But when they don't get your car done on time.. and you've setup your day or week to be without your car... and they don't even care.. then I'm pissed! Or tell me the car needs an un-nessary repair. Or break something while they fix something else. Those things don't make sence. Is the industry under that much pressure to make money that it has to resort to tricks?

Dealerships need to make money! It makes more sence then the Health Care Industry. But why do some dealers have to cut staff and not be able to live up to the promisesed due dates, or make up dumb-ass shit and try to tell it to my face (without laughing) TELL ME THE TRUTH.

Where does the pressure come from to do some of the childish things?

Best Dealer I had was a Toyota that would give me a free rental car. I told them... "take your time keep my car for a week if you want". They knew they couldn't fix my car in a day or two... (they were too busy) so everyone was more relaxed with no time pressuer. Most people in Tampa bought more then one car at Stadium Toyota because it was such a pleasure dealing with them. They made more business even if they made less money becuase of their great policies.

I think un-realisticly short repair dates are to blame. Sort of like the airlines that books more flights at 9:00am then can really get off the runway.

Somebody teach me something new about Auto Dealers. I'd love to learn.
 
For those people who feel that the car dealer is in the right please explain to me what this guy did wrong. You can't tell me that you have never felt like you have been screwed by someone. I'm sure you told someone else about it. Just imagine if you were sued for what you said. Bottom line, he paid for a service he didn't get. I think he has a right to complain.
 
I don't agree with this dealer, but I find this topic more challenging if I look at it from the dealer point of veiw.

I bet its hard to find good trained people to take care of the increasingly complex cars.
How much do you pay a good service tech? What keeps the guy from moving to Lexus or a better paying job as soon as he has some experiance?

It might be hard to be a Dealer or a Manager at a car dealership.

On the flip side:
I know why it makes us all mad to talk about this topic.
My car dealer is one of the few people in my life that can take advantage of me.
 
Not because I'm in the business, but I truly feel that the majority of car dealers have the best interest of the customer in mind. I KNOW I do! There is such a huge emphasis on C.S.I. in new car franchises. C.S.I. means tons of money to dealers, more allocation and, of course, FREE word of mouth advertising. Dealers get severely penalized, as do all of their commissioned employees, for C.S.I. below National average. So......... to believe that a dealer doesn't care is really tough to swallow because it directly implies that they don't care about making money. ( and that, we all know, is NOT true!) I know that some just plain suck; I've been there, you have, and so on........

As far as the service end of it, techs are paid based on time. It is in their best interest to finish the job in under the allotted time so they can start the next job. It is very possible for a tech to be paid 14-15 hrs. of work in an 8 hr day because he finishes his jobs ahead of time allowed. Maybe this is a flaw in the pay system causing them to 'rush' and be incomplete and/or break something else, etc.....but it's been this way for many years. By the way, techs don't make more at a higher line store on average. They get their deserved rate per hour based on experience anywhere they go. And if they're fast, they make more.

What else??? Oh, I agree that the dealer suing is ridiculous! Unless there is something we don't know which is very likely the case.

Justin, thanks for the occassional stab..... again. I don't wish to continue conversation with you as you always do this so please don't respond.

I guess it really boils down to this... The business is based on negotiation. We made it this way. And, gee, good thing we did, otherwise we'd all pay whatever the dealer said. That would really suck, right? So, this might make it heated, frustrating, hard, untrusting, etc..... but that's what's going to happen when we are allowed to negotiate. There aren't a lot of businesses that are negotiable. It will always make people feel like they've been beat. That's just the nature of negotiation. It's all a state of mind.... What I mean is this. Some customers haggle and haggle and haggle until the dealer either lets them leave or just takes a stupid deal. This person haggled so hard simply because he was insecure and VERY afraid of getting laid away. (probably happened to him once before so now he's making up the difference) He gets the greatest deal there is, I mean just a stupid loser of a deal. This guy will still feel like the dealer made a killing on him no matter how much you show that they didn't. He is just untrusting because he was a bad negotiator and got laid away somewhere earlier in his life. On the other hand, the next guy comes in and plays a little and settles on a price where the dealer makes $2500. He is likely to be the happiest customer because he didn't have to work hard or haggle or be told 'NO'. This guy loves his dealer and sends him customer after customer and buys his next car there. What does this all mean? Simply that, in a business where negotiation is encouraged/expected, the bad/lazy negotiator will always make up the difference lost on the good/aggressive negotiator. Just because someone doesn't negotiate well doesn't make the dealer the bad guy. If anybody reading here thinks that the last car they bought was a bad deal and they haggled heavily....... I'll bet that they got a great deal and just didn't believe it. Everytime that salesman goes back to that manager guy and comes back to you, the amount is lower, right? So who's winning? You are!! Don't be mad next time you make a salesman go back and forth 5 times, just be happy that it got lower every time. This happens ALL the time. Great deal and cust thinks they got killed. Bad deal for cust and they thank you and smile. <STATE OF MIND>

A side note on service C.S.I. , considering that this is what this whole thing is about.
Techs are typically not deducted in pay for unsatisfied customers...... maybe that would make them pay more attention if they were.... hmmm, got me thinking now. Salesmen, Sales managers, Finance managers, GSM's and GM's get whacked, why not techs and service writers...........? Maybe they'll care more then.

Usually I don't have so much to say, sorry. A better writer probably could have said all this in 3 sentences.

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Todd Arnold
NSXotic.gif

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html

[This message has been edited by Nsxotic (edited 21 November 2001).]
 
The only thing I don't understand is that I tell them how much I want to pay and we go back and forth for 2 hours, eventually getting to the price I originally stated.

Why waste that time? Why doesn't the salesman go back to the manager once and agree or reject the deal? I make it understood that, this is the price I want. I have no problems with them saying 'no' and me leaving. It's the dealer's right to not sell to me at that price. But it's the haggling games, not letting you leave and then finally getting to the original price that irritates me. It should take 2 hours to buy a car with cash. It should take 15 minutes.
 
If you offered me $10 for my tie that costs me $9.95, I could do the deal. But is it the deal I want to make? No. So, I'll ask you for $13, blah, blah, blah. So, if you offer a realistic number; meaning 'it's possible', tiny profit or break even but possible, then of course, the dealer has to ask for some help, a little bump, some profit, before he just says ok, right? People always will offer a little low assuming the dealer is asking a little high. Meet in the middle and be done.

If you want to speed up your negotiation next time, just make your offer (a real one), ask yes or no (nicely), and get up to leave if they don't say yes. Be nice and thank them as you're leaving..... If the deal is possible, they'll stop you and say ok. If not, you offered too low. The reason I say nicely is that most dealers will let a deal go if the customer is rude because it is a CSI nightmare and will cost much more than the profit made on the deal. If they think they have a happy customer, they'll take the short deal.

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Todd Arnold
NSXotic.gif

http://www.geocities.com/nsxcessive/index.html
 
I always ask nicely.
smile.gif
The only time a negotiation can take a downturn is if people begin lying or distorting facts.

I helped my friend purchase a car last month. It was a Subaru and I knew dealers were selling at invoice because of previous sales data from the internet, and offers I've received via email from other dealers.

We went to the dealer closest to where she lived because that would have been the ideal dealership to buy from. When approached by the salesperson we stated that she wanted to buy a 2002 Subaru, with etc... We did not need a test drive and knew all the options we wanted. After being unable to locate one on their lot with our options, we would have to order a new one from the factory.

So we sat down and began the price negotiations. We pulled out printouts from Edmunds with the invoice price listed on there and said we'd like to pay invoice for this car, as we had other offers at invoice but with dealers further away.

Now this is where the salesperson began to make up excuses about why they couldn't sell at invoice. 'The model sold for invoice is a lower line version', 'This model is hot and sells quick', 'We can't sell for invoice because we don't make any money'. To keep this short, I countered all his claims and we did eventually buy at invoice.

I don't think either party felt bad. It was a nice level conversation and debate which eventually let both parties happy. I just think we could have saved some time by skipping the excuses and haggling portion.

Kenric
 

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