Camber kit good or bad?

[Stephen@NCAutoUSA]

Dave. Do not remove the fender liners. I saw first hand what damage that can do when I visited a friend and his Nsx had small dings from removing the liners.

Oh. I don't think he sprayed the underside of his liners do that probably solves that issue.

 

[Hrant]

illwillem wrote: "only hit the liner on the front AC fan slats that are connected to the liner."

I am not sure why this would be the case with NT-01; it never happended with my 235/40/17 RA1s. Both the NT-01 and RA1 have the same 24.4" diamaeter for 235/40/17. Confused.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Removing the liner also leaves the fans and some other items fully exposed. You can spray inside the fenders but you still have a lot of stuff uncovered. How come no one makes a different slightly larger liner?

 

[Greg-TT]

How come no one makes a different slightly larger liner?

+1 This!!!

 

[1K2GO]

Removing the liner also leaves the fans and some other items fully exposed. You can spray inside the fenders but you still have a lot of stuff uncovered. How come no one makes a different slightly larger liner?

Talk about your niche market. Can't imagine someone producing custom made liners for the 4 guys out there that need them. Racers usually go with the DF fenders. The rest of us just remove the liners before they remove themselves. I've had the experience of seeing my liner parked by a corner exit. I've cut the top section away on mine and am constantly patching them with duct tape. No perfect solution here since none of us are willing to go wide body. That minimal frontal area that we all cherrish sure does create headaches for us track rats.

 

[RYU]

It comes to a point where people need to start making compromises. There's only so much you can do to your car if you're not willing to compromise.

Dave - is this car a race car or a pampered 20k mile 2005 "rare" NSX. Sometimes I really don't know and it's driving us (or maybe just me) crazy trying to make recommendations for you.

Bottom line. 235 = YOU WILL RUB

OR Get Widebody or DF fenders. Repaint them. Run 235s and reinstall your factory liner. Are you even fast enough to need the 235s? No disrespect but I know I've got a lot to squeeze out of me before I maximize the usage of 235s.

FWIW - anyone with some decent DIY skills can make inner fender liners on the NSX with thin sheet aluminum. We do it here in Socal on the racier NSXs. You're only able to cover about a 4-5" wide strip though around the area that protects kickup of rocks into the inner fender. You won't be able to do the contours towards the chassis-frame itself (which you don't need to anyway for a racecar)

 

[TURBO2GO]

Regan I think it's perfectly reasonable to take a car that I love to drive to the track, even if it happens to be a low mileage 2005. And I think it's ok to also be conscious of the fact that it is not some junk car you just do whatever to in order to make it work on the track like a cheao miata. There are things that are ordinarily done that I think better more creative solutions can be found to. For example what I have done with the stereo or with a camera system for the track (which I will demo after my event). Maybe I can in fact have a better fender liner made and help everyone but in order to do anything I need to fully understand the issue first. I don't get the aggressive tone in your post towards me. I'm never rude or impolite and even in this thread you can see like in many threads I thank everyone for their input.

 

[Hrant]

Regan - well said in terms of comprises; its always the case. As for "Are you even fast enough to need the 235s?" , for most of us the 235 offer the presumption and assurance of extra safety margin with grip to compensate for lack of grit! And what options are there in 215 R compounds that will work with 255-275 range?

 

[RYU]

All the folks here are trying to help but I feel like everyone is saying it'll rub. Yet, the issue is still being squeezed to death. I dont' get it...

In my case I tried the 235s. It's just so tight in the fender that even with the perfect offset wheels it will either rub on the inside or on the outer fender or fender liner. Then you're forced to adjust camber to prevent rubbing - that's totally the hellaflush route where you're adjusting alignment NOT for performance.

I like you. I've already mentioned that. I talk like this to my friends. Don't be offended.

 

[Hrant]

Dave - another consideration for you is to "stretch/roll" the fenders. Not just the inside lip but the curvature where the rub is. I have seen Shad do that to an S2000 that was having the same issue. My body shop did it for my NSX fenders when I was installing the Procar hood. It's a delicate process where you need to heat the aluminum without overheating it to the point where the paint cracks. But it is a subtle difference/change, and when you add all the increments with camber and suspension you are getting closer to solving the rub. And yes, with 235, try to duct tape the liner at the edge .... ;-)

 

[TURBO2GO]

Regan - well said in terms of comprises; its always the case. As for "Are you even fast enough to need the 235s?" , for most of us the 235 offer the presumption and assurance of extra safety margin with grip to compensate for lack of grit! And what options are there in 215 R compounds that will work with 255-275 range?

Other than the Federals, none. The reason I am going to the 235/275 is based on Billy's personal recommendations to me, which is also based on the fact that I have the suspension that I have. He wasn't as concerned about going larger up front as he was going larger in the rear and when I mentioned the difference between front and rear can then become quite large he mentioned to me lots of cars run massive differences front and rear and that you simply compensate for it elsewhere.

Going back to another topic I did hours more research into the whole "contact patch is based on weight and pressure" thing and found some interesting info. One omitted factor is that the sidewall of the tire takes quite a bit of the load and so that equation is only so accurate. It is more accurate if there was no sidewall resistance and the car was being held up with something soft like a balloon... Then the patch size remains constant for the most part. However that math simply doesn't translate as well into the real world. Just in case anyone was curious.

- - - Updated - - -

Regan I'm getting fairly fast. I do DE's, autoX and drift. I'm at about 20 track days (just DE) and have done skip barber race school. So I'm not a total newb although I'm not as experienced as the guys on this thread yet. I know I still need lots more seat time but I'd like to feel what R comps do. I may go back to the AD08 anyway but I think it would be a learning experience to see the difference in feel. It may make me faster once I go backwards in tire simply because of confidence at more speed.

 

[Hrant]

Dave wrote: "Going back to another topic I did hours more research into the whole "contact patch is based on weight and pressure" thing and found some interesting info. One omitted factor is that the sidewall of the tire takes quite a bit of the load and so that equation is only so accurate. It is more accurate if there was no sidewall resistance and the car was being held up with something soft like a balloon... Then the patch size remains constant for the most part. However that math simply doesn't translate as well into the real world. Just in case anyone was curious."

LOL! Go back and read my comment regarding "load" rating ...... I believe the NASCAR reporter I mentioned was the one who used two yellow ballons, one soft and one harder to show the impact of the sidewall flex roll resistance ..... :wink:

And yes to R compounds - even slicks. Once you get used to them, there is no returning back :tongue:

 

[RYU]

that's good. then you're probably faster than me which means you might want to consider making adjustments to your car based on your driving style and goals. Billy is easily the fastest driver on prime but you're not him and he can give you a good starting point. you might have surpassed that starting point by now

 

[1K2GO]

Just tough love I'm sure. You know we love ya Dave :smile:

you do have a bigger dilemma than most us with your fancy '05.

 

[TURBO2GO]

Anyone speak Japanese? I'd love to get the gist of this video:

http://cf.cdn.vid.ly/v3h1f8/mp4.mp4

 

[RYU]

Anyone speak Japanese? I'd love to get the gist of this video:

http://cf.cdn.vid.ly/v3h1f8/mp4.mp4

FWIW I had no issues with the Federals this wknd. I even ran my fastest lap to date at that track but that doesn't really mean much because i'm still not even close to illwillem lol

Rough Translation

federal... very popular w/ driftersbut this one... is designed for grip
the tread pattern is designed with big blocks to maximize grip and stiffness of the compound
the profile is designed to be square/flat for better traction and grip

driving impression... steering is responsive

less tire squeal - but the grip is still there w/ the tire squeal so its forgiving

in terms of comfort, it does feel like a high grip tire... it feels like you increased the spring rate

at first the increase in steering reponse was surprising and was really good
i especially liked it turning into high speed corners
although as it got more heat, that steering sharpness started fading
but - looking at the data, we see that the best time was set on the 2nd lap
the tire pressure when you went out was 2.0kg
when you came in, it was 2.7
so, the lost responsiveness would come back by setting the tire pressure closer to the original, maybe 2.2 or os

but, even as the tire pressure increased (beyond spec), it was still forgiving, easy to drive and relatively fast

 

[TURBO2GO]

I think the sidewalls are a bit softer, which generates more heat as it flexes more... that translates to higher tire pressures as it heats up, and the increased pressure is making it lose grip... hence "greasy"..

 

[RYU]

I think the sidewalls are a bit softer, which generates more heat as it flexes more... that translates to higher tire pressures as it heats up, and the increased pressure is making it lose grip... hence "greasy"..

hmmm.. not sure I agree

These don't feel nearly as "greasy" as Azenis 615Ks.

 

[Hrant]

illwillem wrote: "only hit the liner on the front AC fan slats that are connected to the liner."

I am not sure why this would be the case with NT-01; it never happended with my 235/40/17 RA1s. Both the NT-01 and RA1 have the same 24.4" diamaeter for 235/40/17. Confused.

I believe I know why you may be hitting AC fan slats. In your video, at 3:25 it shows that you do not have the Comptech non-compliance suspension pivot clamp for the fronts; they help control pulling and toe change under hard braking. I don't see it on CT Engineering's website now; but SOS has them.

 

[TURBO2GO]

My guess is this tire is happier with a bit lower pressure. 90% of tire heat is generated not by pavement contact but by the flex of the wires in the sidewall as they bend and straighten everytime the sidewall rolls onto the pavement.

- - - Updated - - -

Greasy isn't my term Ryu, it's what some others used after it heats up. I believe my suspicion of the softer sidewall causing heat to be correct. Easily verifiable with a tire gauge. From what I have read, they get high....

 

[RYU]

Speaking of camber. Let's touch on rear camber a bit.

I inspected my tires after track day. I was on mismatched tires (Federal RS-R rears, Star Specs Z1 front). I noticed I was rolling the edges of the front AND rear tires with significant outer tire wear. It wasn't wear on the side walls it seemed more akin to running a lot of positive camber. I was shocked to see that in the rear. I expect that in the front but not the rears (which might support Dave's soft sidewall argument)

Unfortunately, I've screwed around with my suspension so much this year that I have no idea where my camber settings are at. I'm just wondering, at a high level, do you guys see a lot of outer rear tire wear also?

You can see the angle of the top of the wheel here. Granted.. I don't have the non-compliance bushings installed yet which *might* help with some of this deflection.

- - - Updated - - -

This might be a better picture.

Don't mind the Michelin Man working the corner

 

[TURBO2GO]

Billy told me a tire pyrometer is your friend instead of guesswork. I mean it is very informative. Maybe you should invest in one too. Measure tire temps inside, outside and middle like you measure AIT's and see what's going on. But I think you should definitely check and know your camber settings.

 

[RYU]

Billy told me a tire pyrometer is your friend instead of guesswork. I mean it is very informative. Maybe you should invest in one too. Measure tire temps inside, outside and middle like you measure AIT's and see what's going on. But I think you should definitely check and know your camber settings.

I have one. Yes, it's hotter on the outside. I already know the outer tire wear is bad. I'm just asking if anyone else has this problem or if i'm unique.

Yes, we know you follow whatever Billy says lol i'm just teasing now...

 

[1K2GO]

Serious man crush going on here...

- - - Updated - - -

I'm just asking if anyone else has this problem or if i'm unique.

Short answer: yes - before I installed camber kit & OS Giken, I was getting scrub right up to the rim on the outside of my tires.

 

[Hrant]

RYU wrote: "I inspected my tires after track day. I was on mismatched tires (Federal RS-R rears, Star Specs Z1 front). I noticed I was rolling the edges of the front AND rear tires with significant outer tire wear. It wasn't wear on the side walls it seemed more akin to running a lot of positive camber. I was shocked to see that in the rear. I expect that in the front but not the rears (which might support Dave's soft sidewall argument)"

There is a case to be made regarding what Dave is saying if the Federal's sidewall is softer than the Specs Z1. Given that the rear is 35 series (I am guessing this is right) its harder to tell compared to the front 40 series if it is harder or not. What was the tire pressure on the rears compared to the fronts? And is this the only time you noticed the outside wear or before as well? Those could be some indicators.

But you can take your NSX to Sears for a free alignment "check" - assuming you clear whatever you have to drive to get to the alignment bay LOL! The inspection is not a detail alignment check but a quick readout which is about 90% accurate.