Big Brake Expert please

[stuntman]

Yes I meant AP Racing not APC actually...

I have had 5 Mitsubishi's over the years and every one of them was a POS. I have no confidence in ANY of their products anymore. They seem to design to a limit state and the number of problems and blown motors on the EVO's would seem that they are no different. So, going on past experiences, I would not expect their brake specs to be anything other than the absolute minimum design.

Interesting theory: to justify the EVO-Brembo brakes performance due to motor failures...

From what Ive heard, the MIVEC 4G63 is a very advanced engine with a lot of potential to make big HP numbers on stock internals.

Ive owned a 3000GT VR4 which was an overweight touring car with very poor brakes. Yes mitsubishi has made cars in the past with under powered brakes but that shouldnt be the reason to write off the abilities of the EVO's brembo system let alone relating motor failures to the performance of the brakes.

The car has a lot of rally history in it and was designed to better their performance in the WRC championship. The better the platform of your production car = better abilities/rules allowed for your race car (as history has always shown). The brembo brakes are a good system and you do haveto change out the pads to a more aggresive one, once you do that it is more than fit for track abuse. I've also driven many stock EVOs with stock pads and do notice some fade but they are relatively good compared to most street cars.

Yes the Comptech system is great and better than the EVO Brembo caliper, and is great for your application. But that shouldnt be the reason for you to put down an EVO's Brembo system and call it crap.

 

[Hugh]

I would still call Brembo the benchmark though.

They no doubt set the benchmark for price, marketing skill and hype but StopTech makes a better aftermarket brake system. I'd even venture to say that the two piece Stoptech caliper has less flex than the monoblock that Brembo sells to the public. The Brembo monoblocs used in F1 are far different than the mass produced aftermarket ones. But cost is not an obstacle for those and they are a completely different animal than the ones sold on the street. But if you want that Brembo name on your calipers, by all means go ahead and pay for it. In the real world under high performance conditions, your calipers are going to reach temperatures in excess of 300 degrees F. At that temperature the aluminum bridge on your precious Brembos has lost more than twice its strength while the steel bolts holding together your StopTechs have actually increased in strength. Meaning less flex.

If I'm not mistaken, Sport Compact Magazine tested a 350Z back in March of 2004 fitted with a 4 wheel StopTech kit and recorded an amazing 98 feet to go from 60 to 0 mph.

 

[stuntman]

They no doubt set the benchmark for price, marketing skill and hype but StopTech makes a better aftermarket brake system. I'd even venture to say that the two piece Stoptech caliper has less flex than the monoblock that Brembo sells to the public. The Brembo monoblocs used in F1 are far different than the mass produced aftermarket ones. But cost is not an obstacle for those and they are a completely different animal than the ones sold on the street. But if you want that Brembo name on your calipers, by all means go ahead and pay for it. In the real world under high performance conditions, your calipers are going to reach temperatures in excess of 300 degrees F. At that temperature the aluminum bridge on your precious Brembos has lost more than twice its strength while the steel bolts holding together your StopTechs have actually increased in strength. Meaning less flex.

If I'm not mistaken, Sport Compact Magazine tested a 350Z back in March of 2004 fitted with a 4 wheel StopTech kit and recorded an amazing 98 feet to go from 60 to 0 mph.

Interesting... 60mph-0mph for a 1 time test, that distance will really help when brakes reach temperatures well beyond 1,500degrees (200degrees is the minimum operating temperature for some pads).

That little "bridge" is actually a brake pad retaining clip so you can change the pads without removing the caliper. I belive I also see 4 bolts to hold the caliper together similar to stoptech:
http://www.partdistribution.demon.co.uk/ppp/images/brembo_gt.jpg

Not bashing stoptech because they do make good products. Yes brembo's calipers in F1 arent the same as their production line. F1 pads and rotors are made from carbon. Their GT kit again is 5-10yo racing technology, where as their racing line or indy calipers are much more modern and perform better. But their GT kit still works very well and have been used on many Grand Am GS cars that compete in 6 hour long races. Many cars also use stoptech, which are good products but their is a reason brembo is the benchmark in sports car racing.

I see a lot of unjustified bashing going on, come on guys its not necesary, the thread starter wanted to know if 2 piece calipers flex (which is well known by any manufacturer). Yes their are a lot of good systems out there, some better than others, but for most people who are looking for the bling, dont track their cars. And those who do, if you run Stoptech, Brembo, AP, Alcon, etc... if you have an aggressive pad on there, you will be more than fine for a long day of tracking your car.

 

[stuntman]

If I'm not mistaken, Sport Compact Magazine tested a 350Z back in March of 2004 fitted with a 4 wheel StopTech kit and recorded an amazing 98 feet to go from 60 to 0 mph.

"Dodge Viper SRT10 Coupe braking power is defined by Brembo 44/40 dual opposing piston calipers in the front and Brembo 42/38 dual opposing calipers in the rear, gripping four 14-inch rotors. An anti-lock braking system (ABS) prevents lockup during hard braking.

This system results in a world-class braking performance of 60-0 mph in less than 100 feet, and completion of SRT’s signature 0-100-0 mph test in the low 12-second range. " - viper review seriouswheels.com

-At the Skip Barber Racing School, the '06 Viper's braking system is great for street/AutoX use. On a track (Laguna Seca) they fade after 4 corners due to the pads, not the ability of the caliper.
___________________________________________________________

"Porsche Brakes have set the standard by which all other manufacturers have been compared since 1964 when they started installing ATE disc brakes on the 356C.Today, the 993 TT & 996 GT-3 brakes are the benchmarks of brake performance for the rest of the world. To that end, we have several options for increasing the braking power of your 911/930, C2/C4, 993, 996, 997 and Boxster models.

Brake improvements consist of upgrading 5 major items: Calipers, Rotors, Pads, Fluid, and Cooling. Rennsport Systems offers several levels of brake upgrades from simple caliper replacements to full 4-wheel systems incorporating larger rotors and calipers. We also have high-performance brake pads from Pagid, Brembo, & Mintex. A major part of any brake upgrade is using the proper brake fluid and additional cooling for the rotors and calipers.

Rennsport kits use various Brembo Calipers and Rotors. Used by many Formula 1 teams, ALMS teams, and most Porsche racers, Brembo Racing Brake components are among the finest brake systems available anywhere in the world. Some of these rotors are drilled however, so please remember that all cross-drilled rotors can develop cracks, sooner or later. Gas-slotted rotors are much more durable with a small increase in weight over its cross-drilled equivalent. This list is just a sample of the Brake Upgrades that we have available -taken from Rennsport (Porsche Tuner)


-Please dont turn forums into a bash-fest unless you have justified proof of your statments. Brembo has a rich history in motorsports, you dont haveto praise them but the least you could do is prevent ignorant slander.

 

[Hugh]

-Please dont turn forums into a bash-fest unless you have justified proof of your statments. Brembo has a rich history in motorsports, you dont haveto praise them but the least you could do is prevent ignorant slander.

What you call "ignorant slander', I call "pre-medidated inflammatory entertainment fodder". Sometimes I just feel an urge to liven up a thread. Sometimes I accomplish this by posting things that rile people up. It's a habit of mine and most everyone on Prime that knows me is well aware of it. I find that it sometimes brings out great reactions out of other posters who go out of their way to argue with me. Sometimes this makes them do a little research before they post and valuable information that otherwise might not have been posted makes it to the thread.

You just need to get to know me a little better. I'm actually a lot of fun in person. I've even been known to crossdress in public! :biggrin:

P.S. Speaking of stopping distances, my recently sold Yamaha 1993 GTS-1000 motorcycle ( the one with the single sided front swingarm) stopped from 60 to 0 in 89 feet! It had a single caliper in front which I swear looked as big as a Stoptech ST-40. ABS too. What a cool bike. I miss her.

 

[stuntman]

What you call "ignorant slander', I call "pre-medidated inflammatory entertainment fodder". Sometimes I just feel an urge to liven up a thread. Sometimes I accomplish this by posting things that rile people up. It's a habit of mine and most everyone on Prime that knows me is well aware of it. I find that it sometimes brings out great reactions out of other posters who go out of their way to argue with me. Sometimes this makes them do a little research before they post and valuable information that otherwise might not have been posted makes it to the thread.

You just need to get to know me a little better. I'm actually a lot of fun in person. I've even been known to crossdress in public! :biggrin:

P.S. Speaking of stopping distances, my recently sold Yamaha 1993 GTS-1000 motorcycle ( the one with the single sided front swingarm) stopped from 60 to 0 in 89 feet! It had a single caliper in front which I swear looked as big as a Stoptech ST-40. ABS too. What a cool bike. I miss her.

Hey Hugh,

I had to figure something was up, lol. You definatly seem like a character (in a good sense) but crossdressing? I hope you weren't offended by my comments, but hey with that justification: "Acura made a fwd integra, so thus the NSX dosn't handle well" -right?

I think the NSX is a great car and glad to see the owners actually driving them. Thanks for the disclaimer and that Yamaha is a cool bike, I ride an R6 myself.

 

[Hugh]

Hey Hugh,
I had to figure something was up, lol. You definatly seem like a character (in a good sense) but crossdressing?

Check out this thread.

I hope you weren't offended by my comments.......Thanks for the disclaimer.

Me offended by comments posted on a messsage board? HA! I can take it just was good as I dish it out. You're very welcome to the disclaimer. Welcome to the world of Hugh!

 

[AU_NSX]

Interesting theory: to justify the EVO-Brembo brakes performance due to motor failures...

Interesting... It seems you have read an entire paragraph "between the lines" of my sentence.... Read my post again... I did not say that!

 

[stuntman]

I wouldn't call the OEM brakes on a Mitsubishi to be the measure of a Brembo Big Brake kit. The OEM brakes are manufactured to Mitsubishi's specs. They are cheap and they are meant for the street not track.

If you purchased a REAL BIG BRAKE KIT from Brembo you would not have had this problem.

And that is the issue here... We are talking about aftermarket Big Brake kits not OEM POS...

There are only a few manufacturers who can compete with Brembo in terms of performance and weight... APC are one and I can't think of another right now...

______________________________________________________________

Anyway, I have had 5 Mitsubishi's over the years and every one of them was a POS. I have no confidence in ANY of their products anymore. They seem to design to a limit state and the number of problems and blown motors on the EVO's would seem that they are no different. So, going on past experiences, I would not expect their brake specs to be anything other than the absolute minimum design.

You are calling OEM Brembo brakes crap because they were made to mitsubishi's specs -which design all of their components to a very low spec (due to a lot of motor failures).

I would call that statment ignorant. EVO motors are known to be stronger than STI motors which internals can't uphold the boost levels as the EVO motor. The brembo brakes on the EVO are "off-the-shelf" 40-44mm piston Brembo GT Big Brake Kit (F40 Caliper), they did not design a whole new caliper for the EVO.

Mitsubishi's involvment in the WRC has pushed them to produce a better product which will give them a better platform for building their rally cars, they have a huge competition with Subaru and their STI so of course they are trying to out-do eachother and have a better product. Keep re-reading my posts: Brembo GT kits are 5-10yo tech, and the calipers weight much more than modern racing calipers.

If you hated mitsubishis so much, why did you keep buying them?

 

[AU_NSX]

You are calling OEM Brembo brakes crap because they were made to mitsubishi's specs -which design all of their components to a very low spec (due to a lot of motor failures).

No No No!!! NOT "due to a lot of motor failures" Due to failures of ALL mechanical components diff's, gearboxes, even door mechanisms! Oh yes AND a lot of motor failures AS WELL AS BUT NOT LIMITED TO! understand????

I would call that statment ignorant.

I would say it is an opinion based on experiences which by definition is not ignorance. And judging by the number of spelling mistakes in your post I don't think you should be calling anyone ignorant.

EVO motors are known to be stronger than STI motors which internals can't uphold the boost levels as the EVO motor.

A baseless comment with no facts or statistics to back up your claim. I do not agree as I have seen many blown EVO motors and not one blown Subaru motor come through my mechanics workshop...

The brembo brakes on the EVO are "off-the-shelf" 40-44mm piston Brembo GT Big Brake Kit (F40 Caliper), they did not design a whole new caliper for the EVO.

I know nothing about the EVO brakes so I will take your word for that.

Mitsubishi's involvment in the WRC has pushed them to produce a better product which will give them a better platform for building their rally cars, they have a huge competition with Subaru and their STI so of course they are trying to out-do eachother and have a better product.

Just because they can produce a rally car doesn't mean their production cars are anything like that! The Pajero's have a long history of winning the Paris-Dakar rally as well but that has not made their production ones any more reliable or better built. The one I had fell apart within 2 years!

Keep re-reading my posts: Brembo GT kits are 5-10yo tech, and the calipers weight much more than modern racing calipers.

If you hated mitsubishis so much, why did you keep buying them?

I bought only one of them. The rest have been company cars.

 

[stuntman]

No No No!!! NOT "due to a lot of motor failures" Due to failures of ALL mechanical components diff's, gearboxes, even door mechanisms! Oh yes AND a lot of motor failures AS WELL AS BUT NOT LIMITED TO! understand????

I would say it is an opinion based on experiences which by definition is not ignorance. And judging by the number of spelling mistakes in your post I don't think you should be calling anyone ignorant. A baseless comment with no facts or statistics to back up your claim. I do not agree as I have seen many blown EVO motors and not one blown Subaru motor come through my mechanics workshop... I know nothing about the EVO brakes so I will take your word for that.

Just because they can produce a rally car doesn't mean their production cars are anything like that! The Pajero's have a long history of winning the Paris-Dakar rally as well but that has not made their production ones any more reliable or better built. The one I had fell apart within 2 years!

I bought only one of them. The rest have been company cars.

I guess you could justify all auto manufacturers make crappy products because their is always at least 1 car in their lineup that has issues from door locks to dashboards peeling, no company has a perfect record. I have owned a 3000GT VR4 twin turbo and the car has been great for the past 12 years with no real issues. The brakes were not sufficient to slow the 3,800lb car down but other than that, no real maintenance issues even with the technology overkill that was in the car (3.0L twin turbo, AWD, AW Steering, electronically controlled dampers, and adjustable exhaust tone (sport and touring), as well as power everything. -not one component broke on the car for the 12 years I've owned it.

BMW's and Mercedes have been called the 'benchmark' for many of their products - 3 series and SL. My friends own early 3 series and the dashboards crack. Mercedes and BMW's had very annoying squeaking interior and leather. My '99 M3 has an annoying squeak from the rear shock tower mounts -that have been replaced with OEM and aftermarket units to prevent it. The point I’m trying to say is that all manufacturers have issues, maybe your luck with Mitsubishis have been worse than mine? -but you should not write-off the company as making inferior products. -I could say the same thing about Lamborghini. I helped drop a motor on a Murciealago and the car was just a POS - the welds on the boxed tubular space-frame were inconsistent and actually had 1mm gaps in it! -Not all cars are perfect.

I agree, just because a company makes a good rally car, doesn’t mean their street cars are that good. But like every auto manufacturer, sanctioning bodies require you to start with production car platform to build your racecar off of. The better your production car and the more technology you put in the car (like the flatter the bottom of the car for airflow) you have a better platform to build your racecar out of. -Which was the reason "M" cars came out of BMW -was to win touring car races in europe. The point I am trying to get across is auto manufacturers make better street cars so they have better platforms to compete in racing. A good example was the limited production of M3 GTR street cars with V8's so BMW could run it in ALMS and other sanctioning bodies in europe -unfortunately that program didn't launch like they had hoped but many companies do the same thing.

It seems like your attack went from the EVO's brembo brakes from being "inferior and insufficient" to an attack on Mitsubishi in general. If you are not familiar with the braking system on the car, don't just assume it is junk and write it off as junk because your personal experience with that auto manufacturer has been bad. You praise BBKs (including Brembo) but the caliper on the EVO is off of Bembo's BBK line. And once again: Brembo's GT BBK line is 5-10yo tech. Calipers and rotors weigh a ton and are not as strong and stiff as modern racing calipers).

It's one's own personal experience and personal preference I guess. I could say many things I dislike about any car you name, but then I could also say many things I like about any given car. But I don't attack the manufacturer and make generalizations that everything they make is crap.

 

[AU_NSX]

... But I don't attack the manufacturer and make generalizations that everything they make is crap.

Fair comment. But I do make generalisations... And I think everybody does it! I make generalisations on all sorts of issues I have had personal experience with. Some are so politically incorrect they cannot be printed! However, I will also be the first to admit that there are always exceptions to the rule as well! In this case your 12yr old 3000GT VR4 twin turbo (if I'm not mistaken this was also their flagship model at the time?)

What I basically meant to say was that IF the EVO brakes are crap (and I know nothing about the EVO's brakes) it's Mitsubishi's fault and not Brembo's! Brembo are brake experts and they make some of, if not, THE best braking systems in the world! Mitsubishi supplied the specs or the budget or both. Brembo did the best they could given what they had to work with.

 

[stuntman]

I'm glad we can finally agree. Yes the VR4 was their Technological wonder flag-ship with an identical twin sister - Dodge Stealth RT/Twin Turbo.

 

[Alan C.]

I've used Brembo Porsche Big Reds on several cars which I have raced in HSR and PCA at tracks from Sebring to Road America. Some of those tracks can really test the brakes. I never had a brake induced issue. Long term exposure to elevated braking temperatures routinely cooked the dust seals but the piston seals never failed.

As others have noted modulation is a key issue with a properly executed brake system. Not only that but it is possible to significantly reduce your pad cost on a given car with a proper setup.

If brake caliper flex were not an issue why would the F1 teams have gone to a copper beryllium caliper? Is it a big issue for me? I can't say that it is for what I have driven. I have heard good things about the stock NSX brakes, I'll find out this summer.

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Take a break

I stay away from these BBK threads because 1) they make my head hurt and 2), I want to burst out laughing with all the BS banter that goes on........well, truth be told, I can afford to be cavalier about brakes since I have a spec race car with "big brakes" that are the last thing I have to worry about. So, I'm spoiled, but how about a little levity?

Anyone try these? If nothing else, maybe the posers who buy BBK for looks can try 'em. I must admit, scalloping the rotors never occurred to me til I saw these. Here's your link to the NSX version.

I think Hrant should work with Dali to develop a dual caliper system for the NSX like the photos at the bottom of this page

Donning my nomex, I'm outta here...........:tongue:

 

[Hugh]

Re: Take a break

Anyone try these? If nothing else, maybe the posers who buy BBK for looks can try 'em. I must admit, scalloping the rotors never occurred to me til I saw these. Here's your link to the NSX version.

I wonder if female owners can order them with the lettering "The Brake Gal"? :smile:

 

[titaniumdave]

Re: Take a break

Anyone try these? If nothing else, maybe the posers who buy BBK for looks can try 'em. I must admit, scalloping the rotors never occurred to me til I saw these. Here's your link to the NSX version.

I think Hrant should work with Dali to develop a dual caliper system for the NSX like the photos at the bottom of this page

Donning my nomex, I'm outta here...........:tongue:

I have looked at scalloped rotors for the rear, they will work. I can even get vented ones. The upside of scallops is lower weight, the down side is the same, less mass to absorb heat. In race applications this sure would be an option, but a stock weight car without lots of brake ducts would cook them pretty quickly, IMO.

I am running a similar setup as the dual caliper, I am just keeping all 4 pistons housed in the same caliper:tongue:

 

[ncdogdoc]

Re: Take a break

Anyone try these? If nothing else, maybe the posers who buy BBK for looks can try 'em. I must admit, scalloping the rotors never occurred to me til I saw these. Here's your link to the NSX version.

Rob Morrison ran these (with solid rotors) on his World Challenge NSX.

 

[docjohn]

Gary,out of hibernation!

 

[VintageracerNYC]

Keep the original calipers as they are QUITE effective and buy the BBK from RacingBrake.com. They work on my racecar so they will work ANYWHERE!

 

[Hrant]

Re: Take a break

I think Hrant should work with Dali to develop a dual caliper system for the NSX like the photos at the bottom of this page

Donning my nomex, I'm outta here...........:tongue:

Yeah I knew you would be lurking with posts setting me up ......... :wink:

Actually Mark thinks that the dual approach has much performance validity. But we are busy with other more entertaining stuff now :tongue:

 

[titaniumdave]

Here are some pics of my 997S caliper brakes, finally got parts anodized so they look as good as they work!

This is a rear...

 

[92 white 0650]

Re: Well......don't keep us waiting

But we are busy with other more entertaining stuff now

Sheesh Hrant, Christmas came and went and not a hint of your latest surprises. Maybe unobtainium floor mats in the latest designer colors? I'm still waiting for my custom order in electric lime green. Can you get that done before my first race in mid February? It would be really groovy to have it when I unveil my new helmet paint scheme !!! :tongue:

You'll be proud to know that I am keeping the original Sacto club mantra alive: "it's not how fast you go, it's how good you look !!!" :wink: