Big Brake Expert please

[Gansan]

I realize the following "white paper" is from StopTech's website but it certainly makes for some interesting reading on monobloc vs. 2 piece calipers.

That article raises some pretty interesting points, and I guess it illustrates the fact that no overall design is universally superior without consideration of the strengths and weaknesses of each. I must also say it really sounds like a company trying extremely hard to justify their own designs.

I must also correct my previous statement that the Brembo Indy calipers are a single-piece design, when looking at their picture, they appear to have bolts holding them together. Perhaps Brembo is thinking along the same lines as Carroll Smith.

 

[AU_NSX]

The StopTechs and the Brembos have the identical weight of 7.01 lbs without pads. The AP calipers are tad lighter at 6.6 lbs.

Hugh, I'm not 100% sure we are talking about the same brakes here...

There are a few different types of Brembo brakes which are available for the NSX...

1. Brembo sell their GT (Gran Turismo) Kit for the NSX, and
2. Comptech have made their own kit for the NSX out of Brembo race parts.

I agree with you Stoptech vs the Brembo GT kit. But the Comptech Powertech kit uses a lighter Brembo race "Indy" calliper

A couple of other things which are relevant are:

(a) Brembo have a patented brake fluid cooling system in their caliper which they are suing another manufacturer for patent infringement. (Not STOPTECH)

(b) The Comptech Brembo kit uses a TRUE floating disk rotor. (I don't know what Brembo use in their GT kit.) STOPTECH refer to their rotor as "floating disk technology" but it actually does not allow any "floating" of the disk after the hat bolts are tightened.

This is the Comptech kit: Comptech Powertec Brake Kit for NSX

The GT kit is very different! Brembo Gran Turismo Front kit

 

[Gerard van Santen]

I've been saying that the advantage of big brakes is better modulation. The stiffer the caliper the better. Some people in this board doesn't agree, because they think if they can lock up the tires, their brakes is good enough. The key is not to lock them up, but to maintain them at the treshold.

Well said Andrie.

 

[Gerard van Santen]

Brembo to me is junk...

Hugh, A lot has been said. But I have this feeling that statements are made without the proper experience. Theorie is ofcourse important. But some of us consider Brembo's not junk and are/were prepared to pay the bill for a prooven good braking system. Like I said before. I use Brembo's a lot of years now under sometimes heavy circumstances. And they haven't let me down. These are the brakes I am talking about:

MOVIT Brembo
Front brakes
Rear brakes

 

[MvM]

Dumb question perhaps, but are Brembo, AP or Movit calipers made from aluminum ??

If I remember correctly, Honda designed the OEM calipers to be built from steel because they found that aluminum ones flexed too much.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Hugh,

read the white paper by the late Carroll Smith closer. I have great admiration and love all Carroll Smith's book. On this case he is rather bias since he was paid by StopTech. However, Smith is still carefuly worded his paper so the non engineer and non critical person will not get this and he is not lying.

"It is pure marketing hype when a commercially available monbloc caliper, where the manufacturing strategy was aimed at reducing costs to produce a fixed multi piston design, is represented as better than every other design in the aftermarket."

This is the key paragraph. None of the monobloc caliper by brembo, AP, Alcon, PF and the likes are aimed at reducing costs. They are the current technology and stronger, and significantly more expensive. All new race cars uses monobloc calipers. If you go around the paddock in ALMS weekend, even NASCAR, all of them now either uses brembo, AP or Alcon, all in monobloc form.

Brembo supply majority of F1 cars. They also provide braking data for the technically interested fans for selected tracks. This year alone, there was 3 braking data published at F1-live.com by brembo.


The last paragraph on the paper also admit if cost is no object, the best design will be the monobloc.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Dumb question perhaps, but are Brembo, AP or Movit calipers made from aluminum ??

If I remember correctly, Honda designed the OEM calipers to be built from steel because they found that aluminum ones flexed too much.

They are made of aluminum alloy. Depending on application, and price they make them from a wide range of alloy.

The inferiority of OEM caliper is not the material, rather the sliding/floating caliper design. Fixed caliper design is much better in stiffness. The race version will use alluminum alloy to get the desired stiffness and lightweight.

 

[MvM]

They are made of aluminum alloy. Depending on application, and price they make them from a wide range of alloy.

The inferiority of OEM caliper is not the material, rather the sliding/floating caliper design. Fixed caliper design is much better in stiffness. The race version will use alluminum alloy to get the desired stiffness and lightweight.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but was the floating caliper design not chosen for the fact it will adjust for the expansion of your brake rotors when they get hot ?? And if so, then what is the advantage of a fixed caliper which does not allow for such movement of the caliper. Is it just because of less pedal feel when braking hard (on the track) ??
I am not saying that the OEM calipers are better or even equal to much more racing calipers from Brembo, AP or any other brand, but when I look at them OEM ones, I do get the feeling that they are very heavy and are capable of withstanding a considerable amount of stress. And maybe, because they are made of steel, the are (pount for pount perhaps) less prone to flexing than an alloy caliper.

 

[Hugh]

An obtuse but relavent anology might be ,what factors were involved in your choice of surgeon, and hospital for your recent surgery.:wink:

I went to the closest hospital which is SOP for Fire rescue. The surgeon was the GI specialist the hospital works with and who was on call. I have a good friend who is also a GI doctor and consulted with him before the surgery and he gave me the green light.

However I don't have a monoblock colon at the moment. It's a 2 piece.

 

[titaniumdave]

I have owned a full Wilwood BBK, Brembo Lotus front calipers with stock rear calipers and my current set up with Porsche 997S/Brembo Monoblock calipers. They all worked different and the Wilwoods I liked the least as far as pedal feel. At threshold they inspired the least amount of confidence, and were the hardest on rotors of any brakes I have used. This was a 6 pot/4 pot system and the balance was great front to rear, but as you hammered very hard on them at threshold, I never felt confident where the pedal would be as far as distance through the travel. They always stopped but there was a pretty strong 'pucker factor' when hitting end of the back straight at 140 MPH, and knowing I need to be below 90 MPH to make turn 10 at PIR. I think I could wait for the 100 mark, but more often I would brake at 150...Wilwoods are race brakes, designed for light race cars. I think they are just too lightweight for a car as heavy as an NSX when driven at 9/10ths.

The Lotus fronts were always good, but very front biased which made the car pitch forward violently at threshold. This was great for weight transfer, but did not lend itself to trail braking.

My current brakes I love. Balance is great front to back, the brake temps are 300 degrees F lower than I had with the Wilwoods and they seem like they will last. The pedal feel is very consistent, it really helps me push the car and find the limits of my ability with out having the variable of how my brakes are going to feel/respond.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but was the floating caliper design not chosen for the fact it will adjust for the expansion of your brake rotors when they get hot ??

The floating caliper us not unique and doesn't have the ability to adjust for the expansion of brake rotors. expansion of brake rotors is simply push the pistons in, same effect in fixed caliper.

The floating caliper is a very efficient design. It basically allow the use half the pistons that fixed caliper have to use. For instance to have the same force as a 4 pistons fixed caliper, the floating only need 2 calipers. Assuming same size pistons between the two calipers. The steel floating design is also cheaper to make.

I am not saying that the OEM calipers are better or even equal to much more racing calipers from Brembo, AP or any other brand, but when I look at them OEM ones, I do get the feeling that they are very heavy and are capable of withstanding a considerable amount of stress. And maybe, because they are made of steel, the are (pount for pount perhaps) less prone to flexing than an alloy caliper.

The caliper itself will probably flex less or equal to the best of fixed alloy caliper. However, you have to consider the whole caliper, including the carrier. The caliper mounted on the carrier using sliders, that has quite a bit amount of flex. This is the main part that contribute to the flex.

 

[PoohBEAR]

wow...I can't believe a simple question would generate this much answers. I guess I am going to hook up Wilwood tomorrow and see how I like em. Regardless, the 6 pistons looks cute to me. .....and since I won't be driving at 9/10th like Mr. Crazy titaniumdave does, it should serve me fine for a little while.

 

[Hugh]

wow...I can't believe a simple question would generate this much answers.

I have a certain "talent" for getting a lively conversation going.

Reading all of these posts has been pretty informative. Thanks everyone. Brembo is still junk though.

 

[AU_NSX]

Thanks everyone. Brembo is still junk though.

lol... How big does this bucket of sand have to be again Hugh??? :biggrin: j/k

 

[rsevo6]

I do track racing for a lot of years now and I have a MOVIT Big brake set for my front. In fact the calipers are the Brembo Porsche 993 GT2 calipers. I never experienced fading. The first few years I used racing pads and these costed me a set of rotors every year. Now I use OEM Porsche pads and I haven't changed my discs for the last three years now.
If you say Brembo's are junk I assume you make this statement without any experience with these sort of brakes :wink:

You are partly wrong Gerard.
Even though the Porsche brakes are derived from Brembo brakes, they are not the same. Porsche/Movit change them to their own specs, using bigger connecting bolts and in the case of the GT3 brakes making them monoblock (one piece calipers) to reduce flex as compared to the original Brembo stuff.

I have had the MOVIT brakes (GT3 monoblock calipers/997 Turbo discs)on my 350 bhp tuned Evo 6 and these were the first brakes I tried, that could keep up with the performance of the car without warping on the track.
They replaced the original Brembo brakes (calipers/discs) on the car which discs warped every time I used it on the track.
Brake capacity, modulation and feel with the Movit brakes was A LOT better than with the OE Brembo's.
Even after 15.000Km on the road and about 6 trackdays, they still were fine with the exception of the well known micro cracks in the discs that all spirited driven Porsches have but which are known to be no problem

 

[nsxtasy]

I have had the MOVIT brakes (GT3 monoblock calipers/997 Turbo discs)on my 350 bhp tuned Evo 6 and these were the first brakes I tried, that could keep up with the performance of the car without warping on the track.
They replaced the original Brembo brakes (calipers/discs) on the car which discs warped every time I used it on the track.

Your rotors were almost certainly not warping, but rather, experiencing vibrations due to uneven brake pad deposits on the surface of the rotors, as noted in this article.

 

[rsevo6]

Your rotors were almost certainly not warping, but rather, experiencing vibrations due to uneven brake pad deposits on the surface of the rotors, as noted in this article.

Nope, warped the rotors several times, standard Brembo rotors twice, a special heat treated Brembo rotor set once and even a set of 2-piece rotors got warped.
Had them checked every time and were warped every time.
From the moment that I took the Brembo's off and replaced with Movit, never had a problem after that.

 

[ImportPro]

Hugh

Where on earth do you get any of your information from???

My guess is that you have had way too many conversations with one particular manufacturer without using common sense or even trying to attempt to entertain the idea of "don't believe everything you read" or "hear" for that matter, especially on the internet.

The worse part of this thread is that there may be even less qualified people than yourself that may unintentionally spread this false information as fact by putting their faith in the crap you share based on one source that you so faithfully endorse.
Much of the information you share being hugely misinterpreted or down right incorrect.

Beginning with the assumption that a caliper is nothing more than a block of aluminum that transfers fluid into a piston,… to conspiracy theories about racers using one brand and showing the name of another,… to another manufacturer being the only one who provides "vehicle specific" brake kits....ALL OF YOUR INFORMATION AND POSTS ARE IGNORANT.

It's one thing to believe in a product you use, and a whole other to spread fallacies about a company in which you absolutely know nothing about.

Without entertaining your ignorance (especially in a thread already a few months old...sorry admins), I just hope that anyone who gets a chance to read this, PLEASE use more common sense than this guy and do proper research from multiple sources.



Brembo is a company of integrity, at the top of the technological food chain in braking, with just about the highest level of quality and performance available on the aftermarket.

You do not become recognized as The World Leader in Braking Technology based of marketing budgets or product "trickery".
You are also not regarded as an aspirational product with more imitators that anyone else by nothing more than luck.
It's a 30 year reputation, with more money spent in one year on research and development, specifically devoted to high performance braking, than every other brake manufacturer/repackager and imitator in this industry. ($40million dollars worth to be more specific)
It’s an OEM supplier to practically every top level automobile manufacturer in the world.
And one of the leading suppliers in every top level racing series in the world.


Can you prove that Brembo is really junk based on any actual facts...or are you just misinformed???

I'd like to give you the benefit of the doubt, but I pretty much know where your next response will come from.


Sorry to revive a dead thread like this.
At least my passion for a compnay is based on real facts.

I hope everyone has a great weekend !!!


Me - - -

 

[ImportPro]

Nope, warped the rotors several times, standard Brembo rotors twice, a special heat treated Brembo rotor set once and even a set of 2-piece rotors got warped.
Had them checked every time and were warped every time.
From the moment that I took the Brembo's off and replaced with Movit, never had a problem after that.

I guarantee that this was an OEM Brembo system or a system pieced together with OEM Brembo parts from a different vehicle.

Even an OEM Brembo system has it's limits. While the goal is one of performance, Brembo and the OEM manufacturer must take into consideration the many types of drivers, driving styles, and climates that a particular vehicle will see.

An aftermarket Brembo big brake kit is more geared towards spirited and track like conditions and are not prone to these types of issues.

Can you be more specific on the exact components you used for us???

 

[Hugh]

From the moment that I took the Brembo's off and replaced with Movit, never had a problem after that.

Hugh....Can you prove that Brembo is really junk based on any actual facts...or are you just misinformed???

I rest my case.

At least my passion for a compnay is based on real facts.

Brembo is publicly traded, are you sure your passion isn't based on being long the stock? :smile:

 

[coolnsx]

My $.02 :smile: I recently installed the StopTech BBK on front and rear and am very, very happy with the product. At CDub's Streets event I was able to late brake every other car in my group. Thanks Ramon for the great installation :wink:

 

[stuntman]

2 Piece calipers do flex. You should keep in mind because its true: "You get what you pay for". From my experience driving many different calipers in street and racecars, different build processes result in different performing products, it actually is more of a science than just a hunk of metal with fluid in it. Writing off a complex caliper as a hunk of metal is just as bad as calling a motor a hunk of metal with cylindrical hunks of metal going up and down inside of it.

1 piece calipers dont flex and are much more expensive to manufactur. PFC makes very good products and actually can create the piston voids without drilling through the side of the caliper (the machine makes the voids from the inside-out). Some companies who make 1 piece calipers drill through the sides to make the void for the piston and then plug the outside (which is cheaper/older technology) that results in a weaker caliper.

Not all 2 piece calipers are made the same. They do flex and Ive ran wilwoods that have a very vauge feeling. After trying many pad combinations (including pads that i have raced on before) it came down to the caliper. Stoptech makes good 2 piece calipers but brembo is the benchmark for a reason, their involvement in motorsports has resulted in Brembo being the leading manufacturer in competition brakes. Alcon and AP Racing also make great products (as does PFC which is the product to use in Grand Am GT-Prototype racing). But you do haveto know that under stress of racing conditions of high heat and pressure (over 800lbs of brake fluid pressure measured by sensors on the AIM software on racecars ive driven) will cause 2piece calipers especially poorly made ones to flex. They do not 'warp' but they flex in the bolts that hold the 2 halves together. Brembo makes a good 2 piece calipers that reduce flexing (but obviously flex to an extent) more than a monoblock (1 piece) caliper. I question those who have no warrent in justifying writing off Brembo's products as pieces of crap. Their GT (Gran Turismo) kits are off of 5-10 year old technology (Lotus and F40 calipers) which is still better than most other products out there. They also have a racing line (Indy Caliper that some may be familiar with) and others that are still cutting-edge technology for sports car racing.


-My $0.02 from my personal experience.

 

[AU_NSX]

Nope, warped the rotors several times, standard Brembo rotors twice, a special heat treated Brembo rotor set once and even a set of 2-piece rotors got warped.
Had them checked every time and were warped every time.
From the moment that I took the Brembo's off and replaced with Movit, never had a problem after that.

I wouldn't call the OEM brakes on a Mitsubishi to be the measure of a Brembo Big Brake kit. The OEM brakes are manufactured to Mitsubishi's specs. They are cheap and they are meant for the street not track.

If you purchased a REAL BIG BRAKE KIT from Brembo you would not have had this problem.

And that is the issue here... We are talking about aftermarket Big Brake kits not OEM POS...

There are only a few manufacturers who can compete with Brembo in terms of performance and weight... APC are one and I can't think of another right now...

 

[stuntman]

I wouldn't call the OEM brakes on a Mitsubishi to be the measure of a Brembo Big Brake kit. The OEM brakes are manufactured to Mitsubishi's specs. They are cheap and they are meant for the street not track.

If you purchased a REAL BIG BRAKE KIT from Brembo you would not have had this problem.

And that is the issue here... We are talking about aftermarket Big Brake kits not OEM POS...

There are only a few manufacturers who can compete with Brembo in terms of performance and weight... APC are one and I can't think of another right now...

I can think of a few: APC, AP, Performance Friction (PFC), Alcon,...:wink:

The evo brakes are a brembo caliper (similar to their GT kit). The caliper alone is better than most stock car's systems and just need a good pad (the pads in the stock brembo calipers are street pads, if you put a more aggressive pad, it would be more than adequate enough for track use. Most of the "Real Big Brake Kits" are their GT line which again is 5-10 year old racing technology and the calipers and rotors weigh a ton. Their racing line is much more expensive, much lighter, and better performing.

I would still call Brembo the benchmark though and I wouldnt call the EVO's calipers crap.

 

[AU_NSX]

I can think of a few: APC, AP, Performance Friction (PFC), Alcon,...:wink:

The evo brakes are a brembo caliper (similar to their GT kit). The caliper alone is better than most stock car's systems and just need a good pad (the pads in the stock brembo calipers are street pads, if you put a more aggressive pad, it would be more than adequate enough for track use. Most of the "Real Big Brake Kits" are their GT line which again is 5-10 year old racing technology and the calipers and rotors weigh a ton. Their racing line is much more expensive, much lighter, and better performing.

I would still call Brembo the benchmark though and I wouldnt call the EVO's calipers crap.

Yes I meant AP Racing not APC actually... But i would not call myself a Big Brake Expert as the thread originator asks for either!

I have just had experience in racing my NSX with the Brembo Comptech powertech kit and it is sensational!

Anyway, I have had 5 Mitsubishi's over the years and every one of them was a POS. I have no confidence in ANY of their products anymore. They seem to design to a limit state and the number of problems and blown motors on the EVO's would seem that they are no different. So, going on past experiences, I would not expect their brake specs to be anything other than the absolute minimum design.