Big Brake Expert please

[PoohBEAR]

I stopped by Brembo booth this morning and I was told that Wilwood brake caliper flex or goes out of shape on hard brake. Is this trueeee? I just can't imagine any caliper would go out of shape during hard brake.

Well....can anyone chime in?

 

[spyderplayer2002]

I know on evos the red paint turns brown after a while from the heat, but I can't imagine Wilwoods making so much heat that they warp. Maybe they meant the rotors.

 

[docjohn]

It is all relative, but depending on the construction method multipiece vs single piece/billet there will be more microdeformation of the calliper housing as the pistons are pushed in,on a performance car esp at the track this can be important to assure even clamping force applied to the pads.

 

[Hugh]

I stopped by Brembo both this morning and I was told that Wilwood brake caliper flex or goes out of shape on hard brake. Is this trueeee? I just can't imagine any caliper would go out of shape during hard brake.

Well....can anyone chime in?

Gee what a surprise. Brembo is overpriced and has to support a huge advertising budget and being that it is publicly traded, they have stockholders to answer to.

The simple fact of the matter is that brakes are relatively simple devices. It's a big block of $10 worth of aluminum that a little bit of fluid runs through to push a piston against a disc attached to your wheel. Not exactly NASA technology.

Brembo is full of shit about the calipers flexing. Even if they did it would be insignificantly minute. I used to work on the 105th floor of The World Trade Center which cost a lot more to build than a set of brakes and when it was windy out, it flexed a lot. Drawers flung open, water sloshed in the toilets and you could see little waves in your glass of water.

I'm a native New Yorker and I can smell one part per billion of bullshit from 10 miles away and I detect a strong odor coming from Brembo.

Get StopTechs.

 

[docjohn]

Stoptech uses the same argument that brembo does when trying to sell.Ask them why you should'nt pay less for a set of willwood/baer/brand x ect

 

[Hugh]

Stoptech uses the same argument that brembo does when trying to sell.Ask them why you should'nt pay less for a set of willwood/baer/brand x ect

They all use the same argument. However 90% of the other kits on the market cost considerably less than Brembo. My point is that a large part of the cost of Brembos goes to their marketing department.

I'm also in the market for a BBK and I'm still doing research. I've kind of narrowed it down to AP Racing and StopTech but still not sure.

 

[zahntech]

Sounds like a sales pitch to me.

 

[PoohBEAR]

Thanks for the reply guys....I just can't imagine a big block of metal other than Brembo that looks pretty much the same would go out of shape during hard usage. I further asked if I can use Brembo rotor with 6 piston Wilwood. The reply was, "You want to used our great product with that?". Keep in mind I am only here asking what the Caliper would react in hard braking and I am definatly not bashing Brembo or the BS factor. I was just clueless on the topic.

 

[AU_NSX]

The most important thing when purchasing an aftermarket brake kit is the balance F/R. If the balance is not perfect, you will REDUCE the braking ability of your car considerably.

Secondly, is the availability of spare parts like brake pads and rotors... You don't want a manufacturer to stop making the parts because they are a small manufacturer and the NSX spares are no longer a profitable product to keep in production...

 

[Hugh]

The most important thing when purchasing an aftermarket brake kit is the balance F/R. If the balance is not perfect, you will REDUCE the braking ability of your car considerably.

Every StopTech kit is "application specific" meaning that that calipers they sell for a particular car have the correct piston diameter to maintain the OEM's original brake bias. (As I mentioned earlier, I'm still researching these things and don't know yet which other manufacturers design their systems to be car-specific.) In fact their front big brake kits work so well it really isn't necessary to upgrade the rears. If your car is only for street use, the addition of a BBK is purely for the bling factor. BBKs do not stop a car any quicker than a properly working OEM system. Their sole purpose is heat dissipation and the elimination of fade in cars that are tracked. In fact the stock NSX brakes are so damn good that with the addition of some simple mods to help cool them down, many people report no fade issues even with frequently tracked cars. It comes back full circle to the fact that a BBK for an NSX is 90% bling/10% perfomance. But oh what a nice blingy accessory a BBK is!

There are some great discussions about this in the Technical White Paper section of StopTech's website.

Brake Bias and Performance: Why Brake Balance Matters

Rear Brake Upgrades ... Is Bigger Really Better?

 

[AU_NSX]

... It comes back full circle to the fact that a BBK for an NSX is 90% bling/10% perfomance. But oh what a nice blingy accessory a BBK is!

But Hugh if it is all about "Bling"... Then surely you will want to cash-in on some of those advertising $$$ that Brembo spend and get yourself a "Label" you can actually wear on the outside! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

 

[Hugh]

Brembo to me is junk. Every Best Motoring video that I've seen with cars that have been unfortunate enough to have left the factory with those crappy Italian wheel clamps have experienced more fade than the brain of a Bowery drunk who ran out of cheap wine the night before. IN the Battle of Motegi they commenting on the Brembo F-50 brakes on the 360 Modena. After only 4 laps the thing had less braking force than the Flintmobile. I think it finished last.

I'll bet you that a lot of race cars you see out there that are supposedly sponsored by Brembo are really using StopTechs or APs with Brembo painted on them. This little trick is used a lot in racing, especially with motorcycle racers who might be sponsored by Shoei but actually prefer to ride with Arai and vice versa. Remember boys and girls, everything isn't exactly as it may appear to be.

Why do you think they're on so many cars as OEM? They're cheap and it's all about profit. That way they can sell them to an easily persuaded aftermarket at such silly prices.

New Yorkers don't fall for such obvious bullshit.

 

[Hugh]

But Hugh if it is all about "Bling"... Then surely you will want to cash-in on some of those advertising $$$ that Brembo spend and get yourself a "Label" you can actually wear on the outside! :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

I'd consider putting Iron Maiden decals on my calipers.

 

[AU_NSX]

Brembo to me is junk. Every Best Motoring video that I've seen with cars that have been unfortunate enough to have left the factory with those crappy Italian wheel clamps have experienced more fade than the brain of a Bowery drunk who ran out of cheap wine the night before. IN the Battle of Motegi they commenting on the Brembo F-50 brakes on the 360 Modena. After only 4 laps the thing had less braking force than the Flintmobile. I think it finished last.

I'll bet you that a lot of race cars you see out there that are supposedly sponsored by Brembo are really using StopTechs or APs with Brembo painted on them. This little trick is used a lot in racing, especially with motorcycle racers who might be sponsored by Shoei but actually prefer to ride with Arai and vice versa. Remember boys and girls, everything isn't exactly as it may appear to be.

Why do you think they're on so many cars as OEM? They're cheap and it's all about profit. That way they can sell them to an easily persuaded aftermarket at such silly prices.

New Yorkers don't fall for such obvious bullshit.

I wasn't going to mention any brands of brakes Hugh... But I think you may have a personal bias against Brembo, which is clouding your objective decision making... Brembo make many different types of callipers for different applications. The Comptech system uses the "Indy" calliper, which is a race calliper and is definitely not "junk"!

AP Racing is probably the best application for a race set-up as it is probably the most used calliper in ALL forms of motorsport! However, they do take a bit of setting up with proportioning valves for the brake bias as no "kit" is available for the NSX...

Stoptech callipers are much heavier and they are not available in Australia! I don't want to have to import brake pads as well! So that ruled them out for me.

The Comptech kit was designed and built for the NSX, the bias is perfect right out of the box! It truly is a plug and play system. You may spend a bit more purchasing it to start with... But Brian at Nopi has been selling it at very competitive prices...

 

[PAL]

The most important thing when purchasing an aftermarket brake kit is the balance F/R. If the balance is not perfect, you will REDUCE the braking ability of your car considerably.

Please explain further, bro.

 

[Hugh]

Brembo make many different types of callipers for different applications. The Comptech system uses the "Indy" calliper, which is a race calliper and is definitely not "junk"!

"Junk" is a relative term. For the prices that they charge for this "race" caliper, it's junk.

Stoptech callipers are much heavier and they are not available in Australia! I don't want to have to import brake pads as well! So that ruled them out for me.

More mis-information. The StopTechs and the Brembos have the identical weight of 7.01 lbs without pads. The AP calipers are tad lighter at 6.6 lbs.

StopTechs are distributed in Australia by Victorian American Imports in Tralagon, Victoria (03) 5176 0600 but what's the big deal about buying them from any reputable source and getting a discount? (Typically 20% off list price)

As far as pads for StopTech go, the following companies all make pads that fit their calipers: Performace friction, Hawk, Axxis, Ferodo, Pagid and BHP.

Now go put those ugly Brembos on eBay and replace them with a nice new set of StopTechs.

 

[Hugh]

Please explain further, bro.

Everything you need to know about brake bias is linked to in this post. Which is about 7 posts up.

 

[Gerard van Santen]

Brembo to me is junk....

I do track racing for a lot of years now and I have a MOVIT Big brake set for my front. In fact the calipers are the Brembo Porsche 993 GT2 calipers. I never experienced fading. The first few years I used racing pads and these costed me a set of rotors every year. Now I use OEM Porsche pads and I haven't changed my discs for the last three years now.
If you say Brembo's are junk I assume you make this statement without any experience with these sort of brakes :wink:

BTW I have OEM rears and a a perfect balance for street and track. On track I use race slick tires and I these tires make the rears less important than street tires because of the extra grip of the front tires. So for track use you don't need big brakes for the rears if it comes to improve your overall brake performance (just my opinion).

 

[Hugh]

On track I use race slick tires and I these tires make the rears less important than street tires because of the extra grip of the front tires. So for track use you don't need big brakes for the rears if it comes to improve your overall brake performance (just my opinion).

Absolutely correct. The slicks also improve the braking performace in the rear. I just don't like Brembos because they are overpriced and "Brembo" translates into "I have a small penis" and I have insecurity issues.

 

[710]

I believe Brembo bought AP.

Anyway, all brake calipers flex. Even Brembo.
Only a brake dyno "might" notice it though.

And I too I will not buy Brembos, they cost too much.

 

[Gansan]

Wow--I can't believe there is so much disbelief that calipers flex! YES, they do flex, and YES, there is a difference between different calipers.

First, to address why caliper flex (even a tiny bit) is more important than it seems. When you apply the brakes, let's say you are pressing the brake pedal 2 whole inches, while at the brakes, the pads only move a fraction of an inch--just enough to take up any slack and then press against the rotor. The 50 lbs. you are putting on the pedal (plus the brake booster) actually has a lot of leverage (big motion at the pedal makes a small motion at the caliper because of the difference in piston area between the master cylinder and the caliper's piston) and makes a huge amount of clamping force. Because of this, caliper flex is magnified at the pedal: If the caliper spreads out 1mm, the brake pedal might get 3mm of extra sponginess. With four calipers, 1mm of flex in each means 12mm of extra sponginess. So there is a lot of value in having a ultra-rigid caliper structure. It gives a very firm pedal feel and good control.

As for differences between Willwood and Brembo and AP, I don't think you can say one brand is universally the best. The reason is that they all have different models which vary in construction. Those Brembos that are used in OEM applications such as the WRX and Lancer are very different in shape than the Bembo "Indy" caliper, as someone pointed out. The difference is the Indy caliper is forged as a single piece, making it lighter and smaller. The fact that it is in a single piece means there is no seam down the middle held by bolts, which reduces rigidity. The non-Indy Brembos as well as Stoptechs are cast, which means they must add material to maintain strength.

 

[steveny]

Brembo to me is junk. Every Best Motoring video that I've seen with cars that have been unfortunate enough to have left the factory with those crappy Italian wheel clamps have experienced more fade than the brain of a Bowery drunk who ran out of cheap wine the night before. IN the Battle of Motegi they commenting on the Brembo F-50 brakes on the 360 Modena. After only 4 laps the thing had less braking force than the Flintmobile. I think it finished last.

I'll bet you that a lot of race cars you see out there that are supposedly sponsored by Brembo are really using StopTechs or APs with Brembo painted on them. This little trick is used a lot in racing, especially with motorcycle racers who might be sponsored by Shoei but actually prefer to ride with Arai and vice versa. Remember boys and girls, everything isn't exactly as it may appear to be.

Why do you think they're on so many cars as OEM? They're cheap and it's all about profit. That way they can sell them to an easily persuaded aftermarket at such silly prices.

New Yorkers don't fall for such obvious bullshit.

I think the same of Bose.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I'll bet you that a lot of race cars you see out there that are supposedly sponsored by Brembo are really using StopTechs or APs with Brembo painted on them. This little trick is used a lot in racing, especially with motorcycle racers who might be sponsored by Shoei but actually prefer to ride with Arai and vice versa. Remember boys and girls, everything isn't exactly as it may appear to be.

You are a riot, Hugh!
It is funny you are saying such things. I have no doubt and have first hand experience on "this little trick used a lot in racing".

However, saying brembo are sucks, pretty much tell a lot about you and how inexperience you are in real racing situation. While AP is also a really good products and can go head to head with brembo and Alcon, Stoptech is still a step behind. Their kit still uses multi piece instead of monoblock calipers that brembo, AP, Alcon, PF and other top brake manufacturer uses. Not to mention their race version that real big race team and prototype cars uses. No prototype cars uses Stoptech yet, cause they are not good enough yet. Stoptech is definitely good enough for most street cars and touring type race cars, though.

Brake caliper flex is real. And good drivers will notice this as it will be really hard to maintain a threshold braking and good pedal modulation. A great example is SMGNSX and Titaniumdave who started with Wilwood and moved to brembo. Notice I say good driver, that doesn't mean statistically 90% of drivers out there that rate themselves as good drivers.

I've been saying that the advantage of big brakes is better modulation. The stiffer the caliper the better. Some people in this board doesn't agree, because they think if they can lock up the tires, their brakes is good enough. The key is not to lock them up, but to maintain them at the treshold.

 

[Hugh]

I realize the following "white paper" is from StopTech's website but it certainly makes for some interesting reading on monobloc vs. 2 piece calipers.

http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp_monobloc.shtml

by Carroll Smith

"The current generation of Monobloc after market calipers from the reputable manufacturers are at best only about as stiff as conventional two piece units – at ambient temperature.

There is a rub. Brake calipers, especially those attached to hard driven high performance vehicles, do not operate at ambient temperature. Caliper operating temperatures can and do often exceed 300 degrees F on high performance street vehicles. – at which point the Aluminum bridge of the monobloc has lost more than half of its strength while the steel bolts in a two piece unit are unfazed. In fact, steel is essentially unaffected until around 200 degrees F where it begins to gain in strength. Steel gains 25 to 32 percent in strength when it peaks at about 400 degrees F.

So what does it all mean???? Caliper performance characteristics depend on material strength and a combination of design and material stiffness. The monobloc caliper architecture designed to be made from a very strong and very stiff material will not deliver the same level of performance when made from more common production materials.

It means that aftermarket monoblocs have significantly less strength and stiffness than the current Formula One units – let alone the unobtanium ones of days gone by. It means, if you want to spend a lot more money for a good monobloc racing caliper, if it happens to be available with piston areas that suit your car, you can have a trick monobloc caliper that will almost certainly flex more than an optimum two piece unit and is a few ounces lighter. It also means, if you are able to use a monobloc caliper designed for a production application made either by squeeze or semi-solid forging, cost might be comparable but any claim of them being intrinsically better than a well designed two piece caliper with bolts is simply not true. It is pure marketing hype when a commercially available monbloc caliper, where the manufacturing strategy was aimed at reducing costs to produce a fixed multi piston design, is represented as better than every other design in the aftermarket.

To further make the point, if there were no qualifiers like cost or some sanctioning body rule, the optimum caliper arrangement arguably would be a monobloc design but with steel bridge bolts installed and a re-enforced window. Me? I'd rather use the best designed two piece units, made from squeeze or semi-solid forgings correctly sized for my application, have the firmest brake pedal that I can get and spend the extra money on something to make my car handle better – like shocks."

 

[docjohn]

Well Hugh my "sucky" brembos have served me well for 5 yrs and 35k miles 5k at the track. I have never driven a bbk car with another brand to compare so who knows.With most of us in hpde I'm sure pad selection and proper bedding have more to do with an enjoyable day than what calliper brand we use.That said there must be something in your life that you do, hobby -ect where you pay more for something because it is better.An obtuse but relavent anology might be ,what factors were involved in your choice of surgeon, and hospital for your recent surgery.:wink: