BBSC Owners - Speak up!

[G_Man_Max]

In relation to BBSC price rises JSG wrote.

The price of the unit has gone up due in part (large) to the additional costs of the fuel management system and design changes.
The fuel management will require a "black" box interface to the ECU. My production unit currently just uses a chip. Mark stated that FactorX estimated over 1000 hrs to "do it right." Sometimes good enough is OK. 1000 hrs would be too cost prohibative.

If the fueling is getting more complicated and there seems to be a question mark over benefits between rechipping the Honda ECU to adjust the arc on the curve or to use a black box interface that can trick the ECU into thinking there’s more air , more fuel etc.

Has anyone looked into full 3d remapping that will solve allthease problems, be relatively inexpensive and more than likely allow us to absolutely maximize the gains of forced induction right accross the RPM range. As we are no longer dealing with a compromise aimed to run okay on a restricted set of air/fuel variables.

Running this kind of SC setup without throttle position, air temp and RPM is like trying to resolve a quadratic without all the variables, you just havn't got enough information to get it exactly right.

I will try to find out some info about approprate systems that run on the X, as I have used them to great effect on other cars.

 

[NSXTC]

Both the Factor X chip and the new BBSC fuel system are cutting edge technologies that use 3-D fuel mapping software to create their maps. I don't have the expertise to comment on why it would take 1,000 hours to create the maps, but I do know that the new fuel setup is slicker than dog snot! It has the ability to actually read boost via it's own MAP sensor, which is a first for any NSX kit on the market.

 

[JSG]

Sometimes good enough is OK. 1000 hrs would be too cost prohibative.

-B[/B]

Please let me clarify that the above statement is mine and not from Mark B. I trust that he will not settle for "good enough." Given the finite market for an NSX supercharger I made the cost conclusion.

The take home point is that there are many ways to skin a cat (sorry SPCA) and Mark evidenly has found one that is effective for his product.

 

[jorligan]

8000 RPM stated that someone will sell a CTSC installed at 8000 plus change, WHERE?
Is this for a a early model or for a post 97 NSX because I'll take it now for that price.

 

[NetViper]

Originally posted by jorligan:
8000 RPM stated that someone will sell a CTSC installed at 8000 plus change, WHERE?
Is this for a a early model or for a post 97 NSX because I'll take it now for that price.

I think Chris at SOS mentioned that he has special discounts on the CT SC... talk to him. www.scienceofspeed.com

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by NSXTC:
Both the Factor X chip and the new BBSC fuel system are cutting edge technologies that use 3-D fuel mapping software to create their maps. I don't have the expertise to comment on why it would take 1,000 hours to create the maps, but I do know that the new fuel setup is slicker than dog snot! It has the ability to actually read boost via it's own MAP sensor, which is a first for any NSX kit on the market.

I think you have exactly stated a major limitation of the Factor X / Hondata (for NSX) chip: the ECU has no way of knowing when boost is present. That leaves only throttle position, RPM, and intake air temp as the major input variables for the fuel map.

I don't know why this limitation exists for the Factor X / Hondata solution for the NSX. The Hondata web page indicates that its products for the Honda cars uses the stock MAP sensor that is linear to 11 psi of boost, and the ECU makes use of it.

Bryan Zublin

------------------
Zublin Engineering
http://www.zublin.com

 

[NSXTC]

My understanding was that early on, Hondata promised Factor X that the NSX chip would be able to read boost, as this is apparently the case with all the other Hondata chips, and they had no reason to think the NSX would be otherwise. As development continued, it became clear at some point that the the NSX chip (and ECU) was quite different from all the other Honda models, and would not be able to read boost. I believe also the stock NSX MAP sensor can’t handle boost either (although I may be wrong about that). In any case, im sorry to see the Factor X- Basch partnership dissolve. The chip is still a great solution save for this one limitation, which is not in itself a huge problem (the Comptech and GM SC fuel systems cannot read boost either), but MB is a perfectionist, and this new system, being able to read boost and thus adjust the fuel accordingly in realtime makes the BBSC the best engineered kit out there IMO.

 

[NoClgDeg]

Has anybody ran their BBSC down the track yet?

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91 Red/Ivory #2061

 

[Yellow Rose]

Yes, Greg Hardee in the OTC.

Haven't you been following the threads?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Mea Culpa.

When NoClgDeg said "down the track" I now know that means qrtr mile. No offnese to the F&F crowd, but drags are boring to me. I thought that NoClgDeg was refering to road courses.

 

[NSXTC]

Watch Greg's BBSC car leave me and my no-quite-so-BBSC'ed (at the time) NSX in the dust!

 

http://www.daliracing.com/v666-5/download/movies/pahrump_one_lap_with_marc.cfm



[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 17 June 2002).]

 

[sjs]

Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall any reliable source stating that the BBSC system can truly read boost and adjust accordingly. I would like to think it can, but given the short time since the split from Factor-X I don't see how unless it includes an off the shelf controller.

Can someone (who really knows) clarify?

 

[NSXTC]

You must not subscribe to NSX Driver Magazine. Some guy wrote this huge 4-page article about the BBSC in last edition!

Seems the article mentions the new fuel system and who makes it. You'll just have to have faith for now and believe that it does indeed read boost.

Originally posted by sjs:
Perhaps I missed it, but I don't recall any reliable source stating that the BBSC system can truly read boost and adjust accordingly. I would like to think it can, but given the short time since the split from Factor-X I don't see how unless it includes an off the shelf controller.

Can someone (who really knows) clarify?

[This message has been edited by NSXTC (edited 18 June 2002).]

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

As we stated before, the NSX ECU is like no other Honda ECU on the market. Currently, we are able to adjust the fuel/ignition tables at the ECU level. We believe this solution is more than adequate for FIXED maximum boosted applications (ie. Supercharging/Nitrous). For example, we have been running this system with our CTSC/NOS NSX pushing 420+rwhp in daily driven form for several months and thousands of miles now. Under WOT conditions boost pressure remains static (ie. Pulley size).
Most “piggy back systems” are unable to properly manipulate ignition timing at specific points on the RPM band and Load curve, our ECU modification can. Our ECU allows us complete control of the entire ignition timing at any RPM points and Load Curves. For example, Do not try this at home but, how about 40 degrees at idle and 10 degrees at 8000RPMS WOT? The ECU stops reading after 3volts, on the Map Sensor it can go to 5 volts. The Map Sensor itself will read up to 4.975 volts anything above 3 volts is positive manifold pressure (ie. Boost). Depending on the resolution in the software for boost the stock map sensor will normally read up to around 11lbs of boost.

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports www.factorxmotorsports.com

 

[NSXTech]

Originally posted by sjs:
I would like to think it can, but given the short time since the split from Factor-X I don't see how unless it includes an off the shelf controller.

Can someone (who really knows) clarify?

I know, I know (hand waving wildly in the
air) The "other solution" has been in the works for at least four months, ONLY because the "chip" cannot be used in OBDII cars, as has been said by many including FX. It was only a matter of tuning for the different engine (and ordering an EXTRA 100 boxes) and that is how we were able to recover so quickly from the change. I have contracted people who I believe are the best tuners in the bussiness. It has taken a while because these people also do contract tuning for Mazda of America and other OE apps that use them to do Forced induction work. I have also had the SC maker tune for me (as a VERY expensive second opinion) because IMO, they know the characteristics of their blower better than anybody. Two of three configs are done, OBDII 3.2 will be done today or tomorrow. I am also flying this tuner to the cities of our first installs on the different configs to make sure that after install, they work as planned / tested. He will have dyno / tuning facilities made ready for him, his computer stuff sent ahead.
The reason for my maniacal pursuit of boost reading fuel systems, is because I do have a contrary opinion of those who think boost is a constant, pulley size only matter. It is not. There is for instance, belt slippage which occurs very gradually and undetected in some cases. There is constant, hi-speed part or full throttle issues where boost drops at a constant throttle position as the pressure drops and heads back towards atmoshere. This surfaced in our track testing, where one particular drivers style caused him to hold a gear thru a corner at hi rpms (where another driver shifted for the one or two seconds before the corner). Boost is NOT constant at a certain rpm. As an engine 'recovers' from having its throttle stomped, positive pressure tries to keep up with the amount of air being sucked by the pistons, and slowly does. Very slowly, but it happens. Given the option of a system that assumes boost (rpm dependant someone called it) and one that KNOWS boost, I'll take the smart dude anytime.
My preferance, my SuperCharger.

Cheers,
MB

 

[4AU4LIFE]

I don't think very many people realize just how smart you are Mark.
I am very anxious to meet you in Orlando when you do the install on my car.
Thank's for the valuable information and keep the faith. There are lots of us out here that trust your judgement.

------------------
ALL NSX
92 RED/BLACK 5-SPEED

 

[sjs]

Thanks for the response Mark, and I'm very pleased with the answer! Sounds like it should have been plan A all along.

And yes, I do get NSX Driver but haven't had time to read it yet.

BTW, anyone who takes time to frequent this board and/or NSXSC should spend the extremely modest fee to join and get the magazine even if only to support the effort.