BBSC Owners - Speak up!

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
"....not-so-street-friendly dyno plot..."

Of course there are no valid dyno plots for the production BBSC yet.

-Jim

Assuming the production kit is a fine-tuned version of the beta kits, it will probably be more efficient and have higher rwhp readings at the top end. However, the overall shape and characteristic of the dyno plot (i.e. the lack of low end grunt) will most likely still be present and mirror the beta kit's plot.

So I highly doubt the production kit will all of a sudden exhibit a re-shaped dyno plot that will qualify it as more street-friendly than the CTSC or the Gruppe M

[This message has been edited by 8000RPM (edited 10 June 2002).]

 

[nsxxtreme]

Originally posted by NetViper:
I thought the same as you. I always thought it was 5600, but the install would not be free. 6,500 is getting up there again. Why does it cost more now? Did the parts go up, or does Mark just want to make more money. (which is fine.. its his product).

Is Larry still working on a Turbo setup for cheap?

If I remember correctly, the price went up because of a new fuel management system was added. I believe it was posted a while back by Mark in response to someones question. Anyone can correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Originally posted by gobble:

I guess the BBSC is no longer on my wish list. I feel cheated for spending so much time reading about it while thinking it was more affordable.

****************************

If you feel cheated, you did it to yourself. Instead of spending the time thinking about wanting the BBSC, you should've signed up for the initial group of installations at the lower price. It was advertised many times that after X units were sold, the price would go up. You snooze, you loose.



[This message has been edited by AndyVecsey (edited 10 June 2002).]

 

[ANYTIME]

Originally posted by NSXTC:
It works great!

A better top end than the Comptech but not as much low end grunt. Boost comes in around 4,500 RPM with the standard 6 Psi pulley, as opposed to around 2,000 with the Comptech. Above 7,000 RPM, it's bye-bye baby! Get the 9 PSI BBSC (with the required internal engine work) and you'll be riding a rocket!

If you live in Woodland Hills, come out to the Red Robin in Calabasis for our dinner meeting on the 13th and you can see mine. Im back to driving around with the 6 PSI pulley at the moment, so it's not as impressive as it should be when it's finished. MB are you listening??

The meeting is on the 20th, not the 13th as Marc stated. Too many boosted miles makes the brain fade..........

 

[Vytas]

Originally posted by McAttack:
Has anyone out there dynoed their CTSC with the upgrade kit? I'm planning on having mine done in the next week or two but was curious about the increase over the CT 6psi at the rear wheels.

My friend, Mike Niday, had his CTSC upgraded to the 9psi boost kit. It's a '92 NSX with short gears, 4.55 R&P, headers & exhaust. The graph showed a 20 rear wheel HP increase. The dyno runs were performed at Comptech.

Vytas

[This message has been edited by Vytas (edited 10 June 2002).]

 

[Russ]

Originally posted by BryanZublin:
What do you mean by "full picture"? Both the SoS plot at http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/engine_per formance_products/NSX/superchargers/BaschBoost/baschboost_rwh_1992_stock.gif
and the Texas Dyno Day report at http://www.nsxprime.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/004525.html
show dyno plots starting at 3000 RPM and ebding close to redline (8000 RPM).

That's simply wrong, the Texas plots show dyno plots starting from 1000 RPM, or in certain instances, from 2000 RPM, up to near redline.

The point is that by carefully choosing the origin of the X-axis one can accentuate the sweet spots of the curves while hiding the not-so-sweet spots.

------------------
Russ
'91 black/black

 

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by AndyVecsey:

If you feel cheated, you did it to yourself. Instead of spending the time thinking about wanting the BBSC, you should've signed up for the initial group of installations at the lower price. It was advertised many times that after X units were sold, the price would go up. You snooze, you loose.

Maybe you are not one to snooze, but not everyone is willing to blindly commit to purchasing a SC kit without first doing research and finding as much relevant product info as possible upfront.

I wouldn't be surprised if more people felt cheated.

 

[MYNSX]

Theres another company I know of that is developing an inexpensive (not cheap) turbo unit as we speak.I'm sure the name will be disclosed on this forum.

 

[jorligan]

turbocharger? any details? I also am interested in more power and had actually ordered the BBSC unit but after the dyno numbers, am leaning toward a Comptech or TT. Want to keep the stock cover for my top. Do you have any idea of when this unit might be available or whether the developer might be looking for a beta tester for a 3.2 liter motor (98 NSX).

 

[BryanZublin]

Originally posted by Russ:
That's simply wrong, the Texas plots show dyno plots starting from 1000 RPM, or in certain instances, from 2000 RPM, up to near redline.

The point is that by carefully choosing the origin of the X-axis one can accentuate the sweet spots of the curves while hiding the not-so-sweet spots.

Ok, I went back and looked at all of the plots in the file NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf. You are right, some of the X axes start at 1000 RPM. But, there is no actual data until about 2500 RPM for the majority; and NO data below 2000 RPM for any of the plots.

Please tell us what has been hidden between one plot that starts at 2500 RPM and one that starts at 3000 RPM?

Bryan Zublin

 

[NSXTC]

In all fairness to MB, the setup he and Nick brought to Texas was only running 4PSI with an improperly tuned chip because a subcontractor apparently ran behind on parts production that week.

Let's put all the speculation and arguments to rest for now. Once MB gets me my production version 9PSI BBSC pulley and chip, I will dyno my car and publish the results. I already have a number of runs saved on my HD from when I had the 9 PSI CTSC on my car. I can superimpose them both on one graph, showing torque and HP from idle to redline!

 

[McAttack]

Could you PLEASE post the CTSC 9psi results? I just installed mine and would really like to see your stats.

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

Originally posted by Jimbo:

I can only assume that any price increase was to cover the costs for those changes made to the final production unit (i.e. injectors, ECU chip, etc).

[/B]

We really cannot comment on the price change but, due to irreconcilable differences we have pulled out of the fueling of the BBSC. We wish Mark all the best on his system.

Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports www.factorxmotorsports.com

 

[Sig]

What tha?

This sounds ominous, does anyone have further details?

 

[NSXGOD]

Re: Factor X

Originally posted by Sig:
What tha?
This sounds ominous, does anyone have further details?

I would not panic. There is always more than one way to get from A to B. Some ways work better than others. I've driven the Factor X way. The "better" way is what will end up in the kit; and the kit will be continuously upgraded over time as we get more customer feedback from more miles on more kits.

Those of you with a short attention span may not remember that CT "diddled" with their kit for quite some time before and after production, and none of their kits have ever lived up to the "400HP" hype in their catalog, even the 9psi updated kit. See the 9psi dyno plot above at @ ~350RWHP for example. [(if you need to see their catalog, let me know, I'll scan it for you]

Originally posted by Jimbo:
I can only assume that any price increase was to cover the costs for those changes made to the final production unit (i.e. injectors, ECU chip, etc).

There have been several changes to the "final" A kit; the major ones are:

1) slightly larger injectors made for the kit since there were no off the shelf units that were the right size.

2) a redesigned mounting system.

3) a drive shaft and pulley set that cost 5X what the original one did.

4) a different oil return system for the SC oil bath.

4) a different fuel controller setup.

There are other minor adjustments here and there. All of this significantly increased the kits manufacturing cost over MB's original estimates made back in the fall BEFORE a kit had been actually produced.

What I've noticed in the Forums:

1) everyone can drive better than Michael Schumacher.
2) everyone knows more about everything than Einstein.
3) everyone deserves a free lunch.

It doesn't get any better than this. I wonder why more Vendors don't participate?
YMMV,

------------------
need more info? please private me @

[email protected]

Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.

 

[Yellow Rose]

Touche' NSXGOD.

NSXTC - if my 9 PSI BBSC is ready before yours, I'll e-mail you the dyno plot to superimpose. The dyno plot of my 9 PSI CTSC is down by 20 HP due to valve leakage, so that would not be a good datapoint. At the time we dyno'ed our respective engines with the CTSC, yours was stronger than mine.

 

[8000RPM]

Originally posted by NSXGOD:

What I've noticed in the Forums:

1) everyone can drive better than Michael Schumacher.
2) everyone knows more about everything than Einstein.
3) everyone deserves a free lunch.

It doesn't get any better than this. I wonder why more Vendors don't participate?

Ummm...ok.... then why does Dali participate?




[This message has been edited by 8000RPM (edited 11 June 2002).]

 

[true]

Originally posted by NSXGOD:
Re: Factor X

There have been several changes to the "final" A kit; the major ones are:

So this is the 'Final' final now?

1) slightly larger injectors made for the kit since there were no off the shelf units that were the right size.

What is the size that was choosen to use?

a different fuel controller setup.

What is it now?

There are other minor adjustments here and there.

There might be some minor, but the above seem very MAJOR to me......none of those changes nor the price increase(i also thought just the shipping was removed for the introduction price) were published to the community through this site while everything pre-sales was.

What I've noticed in the Forums:

1. Not a whole lot of people know a whole lot about forced induction....including some manufacturers.
2. Jimbo sounds like a broken record.
3. MYNSX's car needs a shave.
4. nsxtasy - is he absent today?
5.

------------------
jack of all trades, master of some.


[This message has been edited by true (edited 11 June 2002).]

 

[Factor X Motorsports]

We agree there are a multitude of ways to fuel a vehicle. We are Motec trained, Pectel certified, and are familiar with other fuel management systems such as Hondata, Haltec, APEX, Greddy E-Manage, and AEM. We have fueled everything from a 6rwhp SAE championship mini baja all the way to a 1000+hp drag Lexus. We have built several custom forced induction set-ups for almost whole line of Honda vehicles (including the NSX), Supras, GS300, SC300, 00’ Jeep Wrangler, 4.6/5.0 mustangs, 4.0 Explorers, and NOS Vipers

Our Honda motors have withstood the rigors of the Baja 1000. The fueling decision depends upon what you are trying to accomplish. Big numbers don’t really mean a thing if you cannot achieve them with reliability. If you are a drag racer then the manner in which you deliver fuel to that particular vehicle is completely different than if you used that same car as a daily driver. In addition to fuel, ignition timing is just as critical if not more critical than fuel. Forced induction requires the ignition curve to be dramatically different than that of an OEM NA curve. In terms of general forced induction daily driven vehicles there are many “good” ways of fueling it, there are “better” ways, and then there is the “RIGHT” way of fueling it.


Speed Safely,

Factor X Motorsports www.factorxmotorsports.com

 

[Nimbus]

Originally posted by McAttack:
Could you PLEASE post the CTSC 9psi results? I just installed mine and would really like to see your stats.

Just curious, where in Boston did you install your CTSC?

 

[ilya]

***Is Larry still working on a Turbo setup for cheap?***

It's already done... he just hasn't advertised it. It's typical Larry. Works real hard to come up with something new and then just sits on it instead of marketing it. Then a while later someone just copies him and takes his idea.

Chris Wolf took people for rides in his turbo 97 last month at the Red Robin dinner meeting.

 

[Russ]

Originally posted by BryanZublin:
Ok, I went back and looked at all of the plots in the file NSteXpo2002_DynoReport.pdf. You are right, some of the X axes start at 1000 RPM. But, there is no actual data until about 2500 RPM for the majority; and NO data below 2000 RPM for any of the plots.

I also went back to the charts and not only do the Texas charts show the full tested RPM range, they also show HP and torque down to zero. The SOS curves start at 100 HP and 140 ft-lbs. Any gains look more impressive when you chop off the bottom part of the graph like this. The Texas charts show the big picture. The other charts show only a piece of the picture. C'mon, this is basic Graphing for Advertising 101.

------------------
Russ
'91 black/black

 

[erobbins]

Originally posted by Russ:
I also went back to the charts and not only do the Texas charts show the full tested RPM range, they also show HP and torque down to zero.

Not exactly... the graph RANGE goes to zero on the HP and torque axes, but the data does not. This is because the vehicle is driven into 3rd gear and then with the throttle "closed", the dyno data collection is started at about 2500RPM. Then, the car goes to wide open throttle up to redline, where the technician lifted off the throttle and then ended the data collection.

I think the SoS curves show the pertinent information just fine. If anything, they show a good example of "Advanced Graphing for Advertising 201", because the scale of the graphs is altered to highlight the benefit of having the BBSC unit in place over OEM.

EDR

 

[Russ]

Originally posted by erobbins:
Not exactly... the graph RANGE goes to zero on the HP and torque axes, but the data does not.

Of course but the zero/zero origin provides the proper context for the universe of data points at issue, don't you agree?

Originally posted by erobbins:
the scale of the graphs is altered to highlight the benefit of having the BBSC unit in place over OEM.

Exactly my point.

------------------
Russ
'91 black/black


[This message has been edited by Russ (edited 11 June 2002).]

 

[JSG]

I had a "production" unit installed last week. Some of the above issues were discussed with Mark during the install.

The price of the unit has gone up due in part (large) to the additional costs of the fuel management system and design changes.
The fuel management will require a "black" box interface to the ECU. My production unit currently just uses a chip. Mark stated that FactorX estimated over 1000 hrs to "do it right." Sometimes good enough is OK. 1000 hrs would be too cost prohibative.

As previously stated. FREE INSTALL was only offered to the first 30 customers.

I have not yet placed the car on a dyno nor have I really had a chance to fully evaluate the SC. I had a new clutch put in at the same time and I have to go easy for the first 500 miles. Further, I have the car in downtown Philadelphia for this week.

The effect while rolling is variable.
The car seems normally aspirated if I accelerate moderately through the rpms. Boost gets diverted. It needs close to WOT to really fly.
I do not have much experience with forced induction, but this was typical in my prior turbo car as well.

I also had a close ratio gear box with the 4.55 installed at the same time. Therefore, its harder to judge to low end as this seems to make a huge difference as well. The 4.55 is great!

It seems true that the real KICK comes in at 6500-7500. It is scary. I am still feeling it out as I am not used to living up in those high rpms. The 4.55 and close ratio gearing is perfect with the BBSC. The car is always in the right rpm range to take advantage of the boost. Obviously, I cannot comment on the set-up with a stock gearbox.
The rpms come up very, very quickly. It feels like a young unbroken stallion. Frankly, I am still a bit of a weeney with it. I am just not used to playing consistently at redline without getting all nervous. The boost hits, the revs fly up, the car takes off like a bat out of hell and my Smartshifter is going BEEP, BEEP, BEEP and I wimp out.

I have never driven a CTSC so I have no basis for comparison.