August 2003 wallpaper political debate

[Eric5273]

Since you are showering us with your vast knowledge. Tell me what is the difference between biological and chemical weapon? Then give me an example for both. Please, don't break out the book.

I see your point that there must be some overlap. I'm not sure what the exact differences are, but I know that gases such as VX Nerve Gas are referred to as being "chemical weapons" and that other things like Anthrax are referred to strictly as "biological weapons". Perhaps you know more about this than I do and you can share your knowledge. My guess is that chemical weapons cause immediate harm on the battlefield while biological weapons cause long term effects. Am I wrong?

My point was that this one incident was blown up by the media to the point that most Americans are walking around thinking that Saddam was gassing the Kurds on a regular basis as a sport.

Last month CNN did a poll in which about 40% of Americans said they thought we had already found WMD's in Iraq and another 35% said that some of the 9/11 hijackers were Iraqis. I wonder who put these ideas in their heads....

 

[AKUDOU]

[admin note - split from http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21000]



Don't mean to be the only critic here, but am I the only one who doesn't really want to think of death and war when I think about my NSX?

It does look very nice, but I think I'll stick with the July callender until next month.

But thanks for doing the work that goes into this......I'm sure your intentions are nothing but wonderful.

W T F ALWAYS SOMEONE TRYING TO MAKE SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING ITS BECOMING A FREAKIN SOAP OPERA IN HERE. ( AS THE WORLD TURNS AND THE STOMACH CHURNS)

 

[Brian2by2]

Well guys, I'm against cars because they kill more Americans every year than F-16s, F-15s, F-22s, F-14s, F-18s and all the other american soldiers, so please remove the NSX from the wallpaper as it may represent drag-racing and thus in turn represent accidents which inevitably often times leads to death

That topic is dropped...the planes are cool and im proud as hell that i kind of "know" an F-16 pilot!! I always wanted to be one (still do but no clue how to go about it so i'll just give up )

Eric...you Iraqi? Just wondering.

 

[Eric5273]

Eric...you Iraqi? Just wondering.

No....I'm Jewish and of Russian and Romanian descent.

 

[Brian2by2]

Coulda fooled me

 

[NSX/MR2]

Chemical weapons are poison gas, drink and other killer chemical stuff.
Biological waepons can be harvest naturally like diseases, dead and spoiled stuffs.

Where they overlap is they both need machine and human processed to come out operating properly. Both can kill you right away or over a long term period. It has to depend on what was used. The police sometime use a certain chemical to control crowd at riots, but they are not consider to be killer stuff, beside a little gagging and disorientation.

There are new chemical and biological weapons that are being evaluated by a number of countries. Of course, the UN is trying to put a stop to that.

 

[ncdogdoc]

Originally posted by NSXSAN
I hate to break it to you, too, but the countries that you just mentiond had a different system where medical care, school and other life supporting structures are also much more readily available and affordable. This country system is very different.

And why do you think that is?

Because they pay exhorbitant taxes to their "wonderful" governments. Many are over 65% of their gross pay. Personally, I want to have a choice in how I spend my income, not some political, especially one who thinks like you do. How come the dollar is still considered the world currency, that Scandinavian countries have some of the highest teenage pregnancy, alcoholism and drug addiction of all "first world" countries, and many of the worlds terrorism is certainly not in any of the "top ten" standard of living countries mentioned.

Sorry for the rant, but your opinions are so very left, you will only get lots of negative replies. I do believe that we over use our potential as the world's "big brother", but sometimes it just has to be done. Why is Liberia asking for our help? Just stop and think about it.

 

[Eric5273]

There are new chemical and biological weapons that are being evaluated by a number of countries. Of course, the UN is trying to put a stop to that.

Yes.....we are one of those countries. Here's an interesting article explaining some of our most recent (last year) exchanges with the UN Chemical Weapons Convention:

http://www.tmtmetropolis.ru/stories/2002/04/26/120.html

 

[Eric5273]

Why is Liberia asking for our help? Just stop and think about it.

That is the key....they are ASKING. When someone asks, you go help them. When they don't ask, you mind your business.

What we are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan is no different than what we did in Vietnam. However, "fighting communism" is no longer an excuse they can use as the people of this country would not go for it, so now they say they are "fighting terrorism".

Every war/conflict our military has been involved in since WWII has been for purely economic reasons. The Afghan invasion was decided in 1998 during Senate Foreign Relations Committee sessions. Clinton would not go for it, so they tried to get rid of him. When that didn't work, they had to wait for a Republican to be in the White House. And Iraq was decided in the Spring of 2001 during Cheney's Energy Task Force meetings. Unfortunately, if they told the public this, nobody would support such a war, so they have learned to manipulate, even kill and scare the public into supporting such wars. I don't doubt that they would nuke an entire U.S. city if it meant enough money would go into the pockets of the neocons and their supporters. And then the public would support going to war with whoever they wanted to blame for it for as long as they wanted. Just wait and see where we are headed...

Fearless prediction: there will be no 2004 Presidential election as shortly before the election some sort of event (probably a major terrorist attack) will occur. The elections will be postponed indefinately and Bush will stay on as president to "deal with the current crisis". Most Americans will think this is a good idea and the few who are against it will be called unpatriotic and conspiracy theorists. Congress will stay silent through the entire ordeal and instead choose to debate the usual partisan issues.

 

[Spencer]

Eric5273 -- you are, quite simply, wrong about much of your facts – and your fawning over the Baathist regime's religious tolerance in the form of a "fairly decent sized Jewish community" borders on the incomprehensible.

(Yeah, they were tolerant alright…they were quite able to haul off Iraqis of ALL religious backgrounds in the middle of the night. And BTW, just because Tariq Aziz was a Christian and somehow managed to survive in Saddam's cabinet for 20 years likewise proves nothing.)

But to take exception to some of your other facts:

"…all Iraqis received free health care…" Yep, when Saddam-the-Butcher took over Iraq, they did indeed have the model for healthcare in the entire Middle East. However, after initially supporting the system, HE allowed it disintegrate over the next 20 years. And the final nail in the coffin was the UN Sanctions. Instead of being used (as designed) as a tool to allow the regime to buy drugs, etc., Saddam used it as an excuse to deliver the death blow to a once proud state-of-the-art medical system. (But, funny how loyal party members with some standing had access to care, no?)

"…free education (in Iraq)" versus "…no free public education system there and most of the population is illiterate (in Saudi Arabia)" I don't know about you, but I can go to probably hundreds of colleges in the U.S. and other countries (especially the UK) and find thousands of Saudi citizens studying abroad on the Kingdom's nickel. But I digress, from the CIA's The World Fact Book 2002…Saudi Arabia has an overall literacy rate of 78% vs. 40.4% for Iraq (I know, I know, more propaganda). And further, while I realize that textbooks in Saudi Arabia help to foment western hatred and spew fundamentalist venom (and need to be changed)…I'll take 'em over the institutionalized, psychopathic, personality cult that passed for textbooks under Saddam (which also helped to foment western hatred and spewed their own particular brand of secular venom).

You also say that in Saudi Arabia "There is also no health care system except for the elite wealthy who can afford to pay for it." This is simply wrong. Saudi Arabia has maintained a credible, Western-type, healthcare system for years. It provides universal access to their citizens. (And I would hazard to guess that currently the average Saudi citizen has a shorter wait time for elective surgery than our friends in Canada).

And then you say, " the vast majority of Saudis live in dire poverty." This one doesn't even merit a response, but I'll try. Saudi Arabia has, if nothing else, been keeping a lid on internal dissent for years, essentially by buying off their citizens by distributing the Kingdom's largess from oil revenue. And while revenues have been down in recent years, the majority of Saudis have NO idea what real poverty is.

And, again, it's not exactly like I'm defending Saudi Arabia…but where do you get your facts? The next thing you'll be saying is that Iraqi municipal water supplies are better than the Saudi's.

 

[Sig]

Eric-

As mentioned by Spencer and several others, your facts and arguments are filled with inaccuracies. It would be difficult to even find a starting point to discuss the logic drop-offs throughout your statements. Though you are certainly good at parroting some of the ultra-left talking points.

The irony is, that their are credible arguments to put forth to defend the viewpoint you are supporting. However, it is painfully obvious your positions are based on a few things you grasped on to from an ultra-left source (person, publication, or whatever) and fail to run much deeper.

Though I disagree with your opinions, I can appreciate the fact that their are legitimate arguments available to back up your opinions.... but are lacking in your words. As I read through the thread, I could not help but to feel I was listening to Susan Surandon.

 

[Eric5273]

Eric5273 -- you are, quite simply, wrong about much of your facts – and your fawning over the Baathist regime's religious tolerance in the form of a "fairly decent sized Jewish community" borders on the incomprehensible.

Back in April:
Muslims save Baghdad's Jewish community centre from looters

And here is Senator Chuck Schumer complaining that our military should be potecting the many Jewish artifacts located in Baghdad's museums:

SCHUMER TO RUMSFELD: PROTECT RELIGIOUS ARTIFACTS IN IRAQ

(Yeah, they were tolerant alright…they were quite able to haul off Iraqis of ALL religious backgrounds in the middle of the night.)

Yes........these abductions and murders were not religiously motivated, they were politically motivated which is what I said before. Iraq was the only secular country in the Persian Gulf region and that is why Saddam was hated so much by Al-Queda.

"…all Iraqis received free health care…" Yep, when Saddam-the-Butcher took over Iraq, they did indeed have the model for healthcare in the entire Middle East. However, after initially supporting the system, HE allowed it disintegrate over the next 20 years. And the final nail in the coffin was the UN Sanctions.

No......when the Baath Party took over Iraq in the 1960s (with Saddam as Vice President), there was no modern health care system. Western businesses controlled all of the oil and other resources in Iraq. In 1972, Saddam nationalized the oil industry and kicked out British Petrolium and the other western oil companies. Most of the revenue from oil was then used to fund health care and education and both those systems became models for the Middle East at that point, and they stayed that way through the late 1980s.

The later decline was due to sanctions as you have already stated. Sanctions really hurt the health care system as Iraq was unable to buy most needed drugs as they were on the banned items list for fear they would be used for biological weapons development. Also, with the large amounts of depleted uranium in their water supplies, cancer rates soared to the highest of any country in the world. Again, the cancer drugs were on the banned items list, so many cancer patients went untreated. The water purification systems were all bombed out in 1991, and the parts needed to fix them were also on the banned items list, so most of Iraq has been drinking dirty water for the last 12 years. Infant mortality rates, which were among the lowest in the Middle East in 1989, are now among the highest and Iraqi newborns suffer from more birth defects than any country in the world. Basically, their entire population suffers from "Gulf War Syndrome"

But I digress, from the CIA's The World Fact Book 2002…Saudi Arabia has an overall literacy rate of 78% vs. 40.4% for Iraq (I know, I know, more propaganda).

Are these the same folks that said Iraq was buying enriched uranium from Niger?

Well, according to ABC News, Saudi Arabia has a literacy rate of 62%.

And according to CBS News, shortly before the Gulf War (when the sanctions started), Iraq had a literacy rate of 87%.

"CIA World Fact Book" -- sounds like an oxymoron.

 

[Eric5273]

And with that post, I have had enough political debate for this week. This last post took way too long to write because I had to start researching my information and posting links. Debate is a healthy thing as long as we can do it in a civilized way and not resort to personal attacks (like telling someone to sell their NSX if they don't like F-16 fighters). We are all entitled to our opinions, just please respect mine and I will respect yours. As you can see, I do have my reasons for believing what I do.

At least we can all agree that the NSX is a cool car.

Of course, yellow is the best color.....

 

[gheba_nsx]

Originally posted by NSXSAN
I hate to break it to you, too, but the countries that you just mentiond had a different system where medical care, school and other life supporting structures are also much more readily available and affordable. This country system is very different.



Because they pay exhorbitant taxes to their "wonderful" governments. Many are over 65% of their gross pay.

Wait wait wait!
Just FYI here we pay less taxes than in any "normal sized" country (Montecarlo and similar excluded), between 10%-20% of the net salary. And we still have the higest life standard in the world.

 

[Sig]

Switzerland is an absolutely beautiful country!

People are nice, land is diverse and dramatic, and the taxes are low It is a tad tricky having to speak 3 languages though. The Swiss women were rather attractive as well.

A friend of mine who runs western Europe sales for a large software company chose to live in Swizerland over every other country in the region. Seeing that Germany and France for all intents and purposes are both socialist states, Switzerland would be an easy choice for me.

Though I did notice that home prices were insane. Perhaps I was looking in the wrong areas.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Thanks for the kind words. I agree with your friend... I have been in several place but Switzerland has the perfect equilibrium for me (political, social and in landscapes, specially for such a small country).

Ok, downside of the hi-request to live here, is the scary price for houses (easily over 1mio$) in my zone. Not for a HUGE thing, I am speaking of a normal sized 6 rooms+3 baths+2 garage house. 80% of the population does never OWN a house, despite the highest salary in the world.

US/southwest coast is also in my top list of place to live along with center Italy (Ferrari zone) and southern France.

 

[Ponyboy]

This thread is getting better.

I've been wanting to get my MBA at a place called IMD in Lusanne, Switzerland since forever (actually about a year now). With a little luck, my family and I will be there in a few years!

 

[Sig]

Gheba-

When you say 6 room, do you mean 6 bedrooms or six rooms in the house including living space?

Some of the 3 bedroom cottages in my friend's neighborhood were in the million dollar range. I would thing the sq. footage of a 6 bedroom home would be well over 5000sq.ft..... it is easier to see how something like that would be in the million dollar range.

In addition to the other benefits listed in the previous posts, we forgot to mention the abundance of world class ski resorts throughout Switzerland!

 

[gheba_nsx]

I mean six rooms including bedrooms, living rooms, ... only kitchen and bathrooms excluded.

A 6 bedrooms, NOT LUXURY, house is in the 1,5 millions range.

And in world calss ski resort places? Better not even think about it... ...it is a 3x/4x price in Saint Moritz or Gstaad.
Better drive up there. Switzerland is small, in 2h driving you can be easily there!

PS: Ponyboy, IMD in Lausanne is a very good school for doing the MBA. My best friend is there right now. Did you already apply for it?

 

[whiteNSXs]

Just a few questions, Eric.
How can you bear to live in such evil country as the USA in which your safety is secured by these babies killing military, your sky is defended by these deadly F14, F15, F16, F18 and whatever killing machines, your wealth is protected by laws that are made by these scum sucking politicians, your brand new NSX is probably earned from the opportunities spared by this countries while exploiting and invading other countries? Sounds like you don't have any good things to say about this country and obviously embarrassed by it. So, really, why do you live in this country and still call yourself American? Hey, I don't know about you, but I teach my boy to salute the American flag, the fighter jets, aircraft carriers, and military personels whenever he sees them. Respect for this country is certainly a part of his family education. Hey, free country, free BS, and free to leave.
Steve

 

[eg9]

Eric5273 -

It's a breath of fresh air to finally get some true facts and good discussions on current politics (on both sides). Being on the far left, far right, or in the middle somewhere means nothing unless you can articulate your reasons and passions for why you believe what you believe. I am even more proud to be on a forum with such intellectuals. Eric, you make some very potent arguments on the politics of our foreign policy. I've done some research myself and am saddened by our recent "excursions" as a country. Coming from a military family, it was hard to think outside the box when it came to politics throughout my life.(You're either on our side or AGAINST US as my brother would say) It meant having to always side on part of the military regardless if their actions were wrong or right.

I've noticed many similarities recently in my town regarding this nation's decisions on foreign policy. People are ready to shot anyone who disagrees with what Mr. Bush says. It seems all of the "good o' boys" are coming out of the woodwork out here in my small town and their happy to tell you to go to hell and get on a plane to Iraq. Of course, the majority of them couldn't point Iraq out on a map to save their lives...(okay...that wasn't necessary)... Anyhow... I just wanted to thank Eric for his insight and having the balls to speak his mind and "tell it like it is" during our time of "The Inquisitions"...

And to think... I voted for Bush.....

Ed-

____________

03 NSX
00 Esprit
95 Tacoma

 

[Eric5273]

eg9:

Here is a famous quote for you:

Why of course people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to do the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

--Herman Goering

He said this at the Nuremberg trials before being sentenced to death.

 

[Jimbo]

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