August 2003 wallpaper political debate

[NSX/MR2]

No, we don't have the largest number of military personnel in the service in the world. What we have is technology, and that replaced human being. Those other countries, particularly China and North Korea, have been know to use "human waves" tactic to fight because they are far less advance than we do.

China had fought and invaded part of Vietnam in 79, India in 69, and skirmish with Russia in 62. The fight with Vietnam and Russia, they were hurt pretty bad. India, however, lost a tiny portion of their border territory to China in the disputed area.

North Korea, on the other hand, had wanted to invade South Korea again and again because they can see a huge difference in the standard of living between the two countries. Without the U.S. being there, it would already happened.

Yes, our forces are stretching too thin, and they will be need to be refresh and replenish soon. I rather all the men and women can go home to their families, and not have to worry about war for sometime. However, that might be tough now that there is war drum in the Pacific (Korea). As of right now, Iraq, Afghanistan and Liberia will definitely be time and money consuming. Yes, we are being stretched, and a conflict with North Korea, though we will win, will be costly.

The problem is: If we leave these countries to themselves, a few of their people say we are neglecting and abandoning them (see Liberia). Politic is hell, you never know when you are on the right side. So the only you have is loyalty, family and country to think about.

 

[Spencer]

I, for one, am glad we retain military superiority over every other country. Eric5273, don’t you sleep just a little better knowing that we could actually do something about Kim Jung Il if it came down to it? Or would it be better, if he was threatening us with nuclear tipped ICBMs, that our offensive capability was on the scale of Sweden’s? Like it or not, we are in the gun sights of many of these half-assed countries, dictators, and terrorists. And this is irrespective of which administration is in power (interesting to note that President Clinton was very close to bombing Kim’s reactor back in the ‘90s).

Another comment on your redirection of resources away from the military…I do agree that we spend a LOT (an obscene amount, actually) on our military, but to compare us to small countries with homogenous populations like Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland is a specious argument. They can (and do) spend little on their military and it’s a non-issue, as they’re not being targeted by anyone. But if you take your point to it’s logical conclusion, you end up with the country of Canada (also on your 'list' of those to emulate)…which is incredibly underfunded militarily. Given the second largest landmass on Earth, they have something like only 50,000 military personnel to protect the entire country. I would suspect that you’d have to agree that’s a little asinine to the other extreme....

 

[NSX/MR2]

And Canada has alway been glad to have us as their neighbor to the south. It's really put a lot of ease on their mind knowing that they don't have to worry about the southern border and be able to concerntrate on other things. However, they have also been one of our stead-fast ally, just like those of British and Australia.

 

[Eric5273]

but to compare us to small countries with homogenous populations like Sweden, Norway, and Switzerland is a specious argument. They can (and do) spend little on their military and it’s a non-issue, as they’re not being targeted by anyone.

The reason we are being targested is not because of our size, or our way of life, but because our leaders have continuously interfered in the internal affairs of dozens of countries around the world and the people of those countries are pissed off and tired of our crap. If they had F-16's, I'm sure they would bomb us. But they don't, so they attack in other ways.

But if you take your point to it’s logical conclusion, you end up with the country of Canada (also on your 'list' of those to emulate)…which is incredibly underfunded militarily. Given the second largest landmass on Earth, they have something like only 50,000 military personnel to protect the entire country. I would suspect that you’d have to agree that’s a little asinine to the other extreme....

Last time I checked, Canada has never been attacked by anyone. I would say based on history, they have better national security than we do. How else can you explain that we get attacked by terrorists and they do not?

 

[NSX/MR2]

Eric,

Read my last post.

 

[Sig]

Eric-

For someone who initially claimed to not want to turn this into a political debate, you seem to be doing nothing but. Each of your posts has been dedicated to furthering your America is bad ideology. If not trying to stir the pot, then what exactly are you doing?

You have somehow taken what is a picture of one of our members and converted into a "this is what I hate about America" speech. Good work. Since you are well versed in the goings ons of foreign nations, you probably are also aware that Canada in addition to a decent standard of living is also home to incredibly loose immigration laws. You can become a citizen without too much trouble and then be able to hate the American Govt's baby-killing/terrorist actions from across the border.

I believe if you truly did not want to stir up a debate, you would have sent a pm about the wallpaper or done nothing at except not to look at it. By posting a thread dedicated to this, shows you are indeed looking for others to support you view,

 

[Eric5273]

At first I didn't, but now that it was put into its own thread, then I don't see anything bad about it. I'm sorry if you are insulted......that was not my intention.

NSXAN: I see your point about Canada, but I don't know if I agree. But I guess we are debating a hypothetical situation then. There is no way to know if our being here has detered anyone from attacking Canada. Our strong military has not detered terrorists from attacking us, so what makes you think it deters them from attacking our neighbor to the north?

 

[NSX/MR2]

Because canada knows that with us being to the South, their border is safe. They will not have to seal their border because of a fear of invasion from us. That will never happen.

No, people have problem with us, and not with Canadien. However, that hadn't stopped Canadien from supporting us in Afghanistan, and a few of their men had died because of it.

 

[Ponyboy]

Ick gawd, what a pointless thread! And ill-argued at best.

 

[Brian2by2]

Where was Canada when we went after Iraq? Cowering behind a glacier I believe? Still, great country, great national policy and a great ally in all seriousness.

Now, as far as us being "the world watchdog"...someone has to do it. We've taken so much heat for it, however, when we neglect to do something, all we get is cries of how we're ignoring their needs and what not. As mentioned: liberia is a prime example.

As far as our military: last time I checked, enlisting was optional. Every one of those boys are there because it boils down to them wanting to be there (sure some have no other choice but 99% are there because it's their choice). Take a country like Israel for example: every person in that country must serve in the military. I met a teenager from Israel who moved here. He served for two years and told me it is brutal hell...especially when you have no other choice.

And as far as our country being on the offensive: as much as some of you may like to think, we were on the defensive in the "war with Iraq". It is a proven fact that Sadaam housed terrorists and aided their 'calling'. How is not defensive taking him out of power? Now, as civilians, we don't know everything, but last time I checked, we gave him an ultimatum to detur this war...he did not follow through.

Iraq was very much a defensive move by taking an offensive stand. We didn't take over Iraq. We will set up a gov't, a law body (my cousin is over there now doing that), and judicial system and stimulate the economy a bit and then we're basically done. Yes, it will cost money. Yes, it costs lives. Yes, citizens of Iraq may disagree, but thats because they know nothing better than the life they lived. They don't know the "300,000-500,000 homes and 30-100,000 cars" mentioned above. Very few countries do...the leaders of those countries typically know of a lifestyle far greater than that while their people are suffering.

There is a lot we don't know, but from what I do know, I think we are right.

NOTE: This is an unscientific, informal survey for the interest and enjoyment of TIME.com users and may not be indicative of popular opinion.

Thats the disclaimer on your "poll"...


oh and

You are correct that we are running out of military personel, but I believe we still have the largest in the world. We are just spread so thin because we have troops stationed in over 80 countries around the world and are currently fighting 2 wars. What is starting to happen to us is what happened to Germany during WWII. We are fighting on too many fronts and if this continues, we may suffer the same fate as they did. Remember that they too had to largest and best military in the world at that time.

We do not have the largest, just the most technologically advanced. China is HUGe compared to us! We're fighting two wars?? What wars might they be? Germany did have the best military at that time, however, they had something called GREED fueling that military and every nation in the world besides Italy and Japan saw through it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think we have more than 2 allies that would back us up in any of the minute conflicts we're involved in right now...?

 

[Tom Larkins]

[admin note - split from http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=21000]



Don't mean to be the only critic here, but am I the only one who doesn't really want to think of death and war when I think about my NSX?

You gotta be kidding me....If your really serious about that bothering you, then you should give up your car b/c its harmful to your health, stay away from SUV's b/c they wipe out other cars in accidents, and on & on.

Military aircraft different than auto's, yes but that aircraft and the people that use them to protect us and you should be held in higher regards than "death & war". After all its not the aircraft that kills, its the pilot and we all know what the last pilots did to our country. Think about it!!!

Great wallpaper and a nice tribute to those that serve.

 

[Jimbo]

Eric,

I really think you should rethink your ownership of a vehicle, such as the NSX, that was inspired by such an evil death machine as the F16.

It's time to put your money where your mouth is.

Respectfully,
Jim

 

[Eric5273]

Now, as far as us being "the world watchdog"...someone has to do it.

I would have no problem if we were playing "world watchdog", but we are not. Our policy makers in washington are only doing what's best for a few select wealthy elite. These decisions are purely economic and they are doing a disservice to the rest of us and the rest of the world.

If they really do want to crack down on repressive regimes, they need to look no futher than Saudi Arabia, or Indonesia, or the Phillipines, all countries that have been called our "allies". Living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein was paradise compared to how Saudis live under "the Kingdom".

As far as our military: last time I checked, enlisting was optional. Every one of those boys are there because it boils down to them wanting to be there

Most of them are ignorant as to what they are getting into. For example, most of them have no idea that when going over to Iraq, they will be exposed to large amounts of depleted uranium which will give most of them long term health problems. The media will tell you that only 150 soldiers died in the first Gulf War. But they don't tell you that over 20,000 have died from Gulf War Syndrome as a result of being exposed to the dust from the bombs we droped over there. Given that those soldiers were only there for a couple months and our troops in the current campaign are there for much longer (and we dropped many more bombs this time), I would guess upwards of 25% of them do not live another 10 years after returning home from the war. Already there are Mysterious Illnesses and deaths there while the military plays dumb and acts like they don't know what is the cause. And if vetrans manage to make it through their service duty in one piece, then they can look forward to the government cutting their promised benefits when they return home.

It is a proven fact that Sadaam housed terrorists and aided their 'calling'.

I have not seen this proof. Please provide a link or some information on what this proof was.

we gave him an ultimatum to detur this war...he did not follow through.

The UN is the only body that can give someone an ultimatum and they did, and Iraq agreed to allow the inspectors back in. They also provided the report they were required to provide which declared that they had no WMD's. It was Bush's claim that there were WMD's so the report was a lie, but apparently Bush was wrong (or lied) because no WMD's have turned up. Given that Bush also lied about Iraq attempting to buy enriched uranium from Niger, I would guess this accusation was no mistake either.

I remember in March that Rumsfeld said on "Meet the Press" that "we know exactly where the weapons are, but we cannot give that information to the inspectors because it will jeapardize our intelligence gathering methods". Well, what is his excuse now? If they know exactly where they are, then what are they waiting for? 50,000 gallons of VX Nerve Gas cannot be difficult to locate. That is several football fields worth of the stuff. It was not burried in someone's backyard.

We didn't take over Iraq. We will set up a gov't, a law body (my cousin is over there now doing that), and judicial system and stimulate the economy a bit and then we're basically done.

Try "puppet" government, the same as we tried to do (and have failed misserably) in Afghanistan. They don't really care who the government in Iraq is. As long as that government allows the U.S. oil companies to control the oil, they will be fine with it.

We're fighting two wars?? What wars might they be?

Iraq and Afghanistan, or did you forget about that one? So have most Americans. A UN report released in January of this year stated that the U.S. Military had abandoned most of its locations along the Pakistan border because of constant attacks on them, and shortly afterwards the Al-Queda training camps had re-opened there. The Taliban are re-grouping just as they did in the 1980's when they fought the Soviet Union. There are almost daily attacks now on the southern cities. We barely have any troops there and most of the attacks are on the new Afghan Army. Meanwhile, elections were promised to these people in 6 months and now it's been almost 2 years and still no elections.

But the White House does not really care about that, as that (Al-Queda) was not the main purpose of the war, only the excuse. As long as the northeastern part of the country is secure they can continue to build their oil pipeline and they could care less what happens in the south. As construction makes it's way south over the next couple years, then they will address the problem of securing those areas.

Germany did have the best military at that time, however, they had something called GREED fueling that military

They were greedy? Really? (sarcasm!)

Seems as if most German people at the time were unaware. Just reading these excerpts of Hitler's speeches would make you think that the Germans were just being the world's police and helping the poeple of these other countries:

By the most brutal methods of terrorism, a regime sought to maintain an existence that was condemned by the overwhelming majority of its people...I have tried to persuade the responsible authorities that it is impossible for a great nation, because it is unworthy of it, to stand by and watch millions belonging to a great, an ancient civilized people be denied rights by their government... I have endeavoured to find some way to alleviate a tragic fate. One agreement was signed only to be broken. I then tried a second time to bring about an understanding. A few weeks later, we were forced to the conclusion that the government [of Austria] had no intention of carrying out this agreement in the spirit that had inspired it, but in order to create an excuse. I have determined, therefore, to place the help of our country at the service of these millions. Since this morning, our soldiers are on the march across all of Austria's frontiers."
-- Adolf Hitler, March 12, 1938, justifying the German invasion of Austria.

We have no interest in oppressing other people. We are not moved by hatred against any other nation. We bear no grudge. I know how grave a thing war is. I wanted to spare our people such an evil. It is not so much the country [of Czechoslovakia]; it is rather its leader [Dr. Edward Benes]. He has led a reign of terror. He has hurled countless people into the profoundest misery. Through his continuous terrorism, he has succeeded in reducing millions of his people to silence. The Czech maintenance of a tremendous military arsenal can only be regarded as a focus of danger. We have displayed a truly unexampled patience, but I am no longer willing to remain inactive while this madman ill-treats millions of human beings."
-- Adolf Hitler, April 14, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

The wave of appalling terrorism against the [minority] inhabitants of Poland, and the atrocities that have been taking place in that country are terrible for the victims, but intolerable for a Great Power which has been expected to remain a passive onlooker. We will not continue to tolerate the persecution of the minority, the killing of many, and their forcible removal under the most cruel conditions. I see no way by which I can induce the government of Poland to adopt a peaceful solution. But I should despair of any honourable future for my own people if we were not, in one way or another, to solve this question."
-- Adolf Hitler, August 23, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Poland.

Actually, now that I think about it, the tone of these speeches sounds very familiar...don't they?

A leader of a powerful nation claiming to have great patience in dealing with rogue leaders of other countries. And all the talk about fighting terrorism. I guess when history looks at 1930s Europe, we sure do think of the leaders of Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia as being evil and repressive.....right?

I guess the people who live in the country doing the invading rarely know what is really going on as there is always some justification given.

Only history will judge what we are doing now...

 

[RPM217]

Do you work?

I would have no problem if we were playing "world watchdog", but we are not. Our policy makers in washington are only doing what's best for a few select wealthy elite. These decisions are purely economic and they are doing a disservice to the rest of us and the rest of the world.


Most of them are ignorant as to what they are getting into. For example, most of them have no idea that when going over to Iraq, they will be exposed to large amounts of depleted uranium which will give most of them long term health problems. The media will tell you that only 150 soldiers died in the first Gulf War. But they don't tell you that over 20,000 have died from Gulf War Syndrome as a result of being exposed to the dust from the bombs we droped over there. Given that those soldiers were only there for a couple months and our troops in the current campaign are there for much longer (and we dropped many more bombs this time), I would guess upwards of 25% of them do not live another 10 years after returning home from the war. Already there are Mysterious Illnesses and deaths there while the military plays dumb and acts like they don't know what is the cause. And if vetrans manage to make it through their service duty in one piece, then they can look forward to the government cutting their promised benefits when they return home.



I have not seen this proof. Please provide a link or some information on what this proof was.



The UN is the only body that can give someone an ultimatum and they did, and Iraq agreed to allow the inspectors back in. They also provided the report they were required to provide which declared that they had no WMD's. It was Bush's claim that there were WMD's so the report was a lie, but apparently Bush was wrong (or lied) because no WMD's have turned up. Given that Bush also lied about Iraq attempting to buy enriched uranium from Niger, I would guess this accusation was no mistake either.

I remember in March that Rumsfeld said on "Meet the Press" that "we know exactly where the weapons are, but we cannot give that information to the inspectors because it will jeapardize our intelligence gathering methods". Well, what is his excuse now? If they know exactly where they are, then what are they waiting for? 50,000 gallons of VX Nerve Gas cannot be difficult to locate. That is several football fields worth of the stuff. It was not burried in someone's backyard.



Try "puppet" government, the same as we tried to do (and have failed misserably) in Afghanistan. They don't really care who the government in Iraq is. As long as that government allows the U.S. oil companies to control the oil, they will be fine with it.



Iraq and Afghanistan, or did you forget about that one? So have most Americans. A UN report released in January of this year stated that the U.S. Military had abandoned most of its locations along the Pakistan border because of constant attacks on them, and shortly afterwards the Al-Queda training camps had re-opened there. The Taliban are re-grouping just as they did in the 1980's when they fought the Soviet Union. There are almost daily attacks now on the southern cities. We barely have any troops there and most of the attacks are on the new Afghan Army. Meanwhile, elections were promised to these people in 6 months and now it's been almost 2 years and still no elections.

But the White House does not really care about that, as that (Al-Queda) was not the main purpose of the war, only the excuse. As long as the northeastern part of the country is secure they can continue to build their oil pipeline and they could care less what happens in the south. As construction makes it's way south over the next couple years, then they will address the problem of securing those areas.



They were greedy? Really? (sarcasm!)

Seems as if most German people at the time were unaware. Just reading these excerpts of Hitler's speeches would make you think that the Germans were just being the world's police and helping the poeple of these other countries:

By the most brutal methods of terrorism, a regime sought to maintain an existence that was condemned by the overwhelming majority of its people...I have tried to persuade the responsible authorities that it is impossible for a great nation, because it is unworthy of it, to stand by and watch millions belonging to a great, an ancient civilized people be denied rights by their government... I have endeavoured to find some way to alleviate a tragic fate. One agreement was signed only to be broken. I then tried a second time to bring about an understanding. A few weeks later, we were forced to the conclusion that the government [of Austria] had no intention of carrying out this agreement in the spirit that had inspired it, but in order to create an excuse. I have determined, therefore, to place the help of our country at the service of these millions. Since this morning, our soldiers are on the march across all of Austria's frontiers."
-- Adolf Hitler, March 12, 1938, justifying the German invasion of Austria.

We have no interest in oppressing other people. We are not moved by hatred against any other nation. We bear no grudge. I know how grave a thing war is. I wanted to spare our people such an evil. It is not so much the country [of Czechoslovakia]; it is rather its leader [Dr. Edward Benes]. He has led a reign of terror. He has hurled countless people into the profoundest misery. Through his continuous terrorism, he has succeeded in reducing millions of his people to silence. The Czech maintenance of a tremendous military arsenal can only be regarded as a focus of danger. We have displayed a truly unexampled patience, but I am no longer willing to remain inactive while this madman ill-treats millions of human beings."
-- Adolf Hitler, April 14, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Czechoslovakia.

The wave of appalling terrorism against the [minority] inhabitants of Poland, and the atrocities that have been taking place in that country are terrible for the victims, but intolerable for a Great Power which has been expected to remain a passive onlooker. We will not continue to tolerate the persecution of the minority, the killing of many, and their forcible removal under the most cruel conditions. I see no way by which I can induce the government of Poland to adopt a peaceful solution. But I should despair of any honourable future for my own people if we were not, in one way or another, to solve this question."
-- Adolf Hitler, August 23, 1939, justifying the German invasion of Poland.

Actually, now that I think about it, the tone of these speeches sounds very familiar...don't they?

A leader of a powerful nation claiming to have great patience in dealing with rogue leaders of other countries. And all the talk about fighting terrorism. I guess when history looks at 1930s Europe, we sure do think of the leaders of Poland, Austria and Czechoslovakia as being evil and repressive.....right?

I guess the people who live in the country doing the invading rarely know what is really going on as there is always some justification given.

Only history will judge what we are doing now...

If they really do want to crack down on repressive regimes, they need to look no futher than Saudi Arabia, or Indonesia, or the Phillipines, all countries that have been called our "allies". Living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein was paradise compared to how Saudis live under "the Kingdom".


I think that this post should be in the way "off topic" section, and the amount of verbiage that is going on in this post makes me ask the question, do you have a job?

 

[Eric5273]

I really think you should rethink your ownership of a vehicle, such as the NSX, that was inspired by such an evil death machine as the F16.

When I posted my first post of the thread, I was unaware that the NSX was inspired by the F16. I did not realize that was the reason for putting them on the same calander. From my viewpoint, it was glorifying the current wars going on -- wars which I have actively been involved in protesting against. But once the author of the calender explained this, I now have no problem with it. I still won't be putting it on my desktop, but I will be looking forward to his next calender. As far as the rest of this debate, this has nothing to do with the calender which is obviously why it was moved to a seperate thread.

And I will just note, that I have nothing wrong with the design and looks of an F-16 -- it is a beautiful plane. I somtimes have a problem with what they are used for. Any inspiration from the F-16 that went into the NSX obviously was from a looks and design standpoint and not from a fuction standpoint.

 

[Spencer]

Eric5273, do you really mean it when you say...that living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein was paradise compared to how Saudis live under 'the Kingdom"?

I realize that Saudi Arabia is not a democracy, that their treatment of women is unacceptable, and that they are socially barbaric in many cases...but do you really believe that Iraq under Saddam “was paradise” in comparison? The Saudis never obliterated entire communities using poison gas. The Saudis never lost 1,000,000 men in a multi-year fool’s errand of two wars with neighboring countries. The Saudis have never sought (and deployed) WMDs. Are they perfect? No. Should we mindlessly support their government? Not really. But in comparison to Saddam? You’ve got to be kidding…

Geez, I never thought I’d end up defending the Saudi regime, but get a grip…and start reading the newspaper.

 

[Brian2by2]

First off, I think the F-16 is 100% justifiable because not only did it inspire the NSX design, it is ViperDrivers other "machine"! And apparently thats HIS picture of him in flight gear...that's justifiable to me!

As far as Hitler saying those things...that was a totally different day. Those were days without camera's, satelites to relay messages, etc. The technologies of media, or lack there of, made it impossible to portray or relay any information back to the German people. Therefore, all they had to go on was Hitler's word. Now, can the media portray Iraq how they want? Yup. Sure can! however, there are many aspects of the media available to us and several of them somewhat agree with the picture portrayed in America...somewhat.

We are not at war with Afghanistan. We are battling terrorism in Afghanistan, and it is not considered a war against a terrorist regime.

I have to take off now, but i'll write some more in about 2 hours when i get home from practice.

 

[Ponyboy]

...but get a grip...and start reading the newspaper.

Never. The newspapers are run by Bush propagandists intent on war with peaceful nations, the subjucation of minorities, economic turmoil, mass murder of US armed forces, the framing of Kobe Bryant, and the despicable "Wiggles" children's show on the Disney Channel.

 

[Spencer]

Ha! Ha! Ponyboy! ...but I'm thinking that even loyal NY Times readers would've rather lived in Saudi Arabia than Iraq under Saddam!

 

[Jimbo]

Obviously, Eric is misinformed about a number of things.

It was very clear from the original post of the calendar that it was simply meant to be a tribute to one of our members.

The calendar is simply an image of a pilot and his aircraft. There was no "war" content. There was no image of bombs falling or explosions. There was no political statement being made.

It was just someone who was clearly ill-informed and taking advantage of the situation to share his unwanted personal views with the rest of us (as if we really cared about his views).

If you don't like the calendar, don't use it. If you don't like the fact that your car was designed after the F16, sell it.

-Jim

 

[Eric5273]

Eric5273, do you really mean it when you say...that living in Iraq under Saddam Hussein was paradise compared to how Saudis live under 'the Kingdom"?

I realize that Saudi Arabia is not a democracy, that their treatment of women is unacceptable, and that they are socially barbaric in many cases...but do you really believe that Iraq under Saddam “was paradise” in comparison? The Saudis never obliterated entire communities using poison gas. The Saudis never lost 1,000,000 men in a multi-year fool’s errand of two wars with neighboring countries. The Saudis have never sought (and deployed) WMDs. Are they perfect? No. Should we mindlessly support their government? Not really. But in comparison to Saddam? You’ve got to be kidding…

Yes...I mean it. You're not going to get that point of view from American news sources though, so don't expect to hear the truth when you read your newspaper. Also, please don't think I am defending Saddam Hussein -- I am just demonstrating our foreign policy inconsistancies when dealing with the Middle East.

Iraq was (is) an industrialized country with an educated society. Under Saddam's regime, all Iraqis received free health care and education. It was a socialist country. Women were treated closer to equals than in any Arab country in the Middle-East, and it was not uncommon to find women doctors, engineers and scientists. Also, Saddam's regime was secular and they allowed freedom of religion. There is a common misconception that Jews were persecuted, but there is a big temple right in the middle of Baghdad and a fairly decent sized Jewish community there. Shiite Muslims were actually persecuted more than Jews or Christians not because of their religious beliefs but because of Saddam's fear that the Shiite majority would overthrow him one day much like they did to the Shah in Iran.

On the other hand, the vast majority of Saudis live in dire poverty not much different than the people in Somalia. There is no free public education system there and most of the population is illiterate. There is also no health care system except for the elite wealthy who can afford to pay for it. Women are treated much the same as they were in Afghanistan under the Taliban and the government is a Muslim theocracy with no freedom of religion -- religious groups other than Muslims are heavily persecuted. Not to mention that they, and not Saddam Hussein, are obviously the ones who were/are giving support to the terrorist groups.

 

[Eric5273]

Obviously, Eric is misinformed about a number of things.

It was very clear from the original post of the calendar that it was simply meant to be a tribute to one of our members.

The calendar is simply an image of a pilot and his aircraft. There was no "war" content. There was no image of bombs falling or explosions. There was no political statement being made.

It was just someone who was clearly ill-informed and taking advantage of the situation to share his unwanted personal views with the rest of us (as if we really cared about his views).

If you don't like the calendar, don't use it. If you don't like the fact that your car was designed after the F16, sell it.

-Jim

I already appologized twice for the original comment about the callender. I'll do it a 3rd time now: I did not know that was a picture of him or that the F-16 was related to the NSX design. Now I do. This thread at this point has nothing to do with the Callender or the car which is why it's in the "off topic" folder. And no, I do not wish to sell my NSX.

You military guys who claim to support free speech sure do get all bent out of shape when someone says they are against wars and killing. I'm still waiting for one of you to tell me to move to Iraq. But I guess telling me to sell my NSX is more appropriate since this is a NSX board.

 

[NSX/MR2]

Eric,

You forgot to mention that the former Iraqi government really enjoyed killing their own people as public mass-execution is an event. Beside that, they utilized biological/chemical weapons against the Kurd and Iranian when they were at odd with each other.

I am totally against war and killing. As someone else in a movie has said, and it is very true: "Every man that I kill, the further away from home I feel." Very true.

The closest I have come to Iraq was the northern border watch in Kuwait a-year and a-half ago. I haven't been back since, but I am thinking about going ther so some of the men and women already there for so long can finally go home. Ya, I will be the one to say it: "I think you should go to Iraq for a while."

 

[Eric5273]

You forgot to mention that the former Iraqui government really enjoyed killing their own people as public mass-execution is an event. Beside that, they utilized biological/chemical weapons against the Kurd and Iranian when they were at odd with each other.

Nobody is saying they were saints, but you guys are reading into much of the propoganda that has been floated around and much of this is exagerations or simply false. For example...

1) no evidence that they ever used any biological weapons on anyone. I don't think anyone even ever made this claim, so I'm not sure where you are getting this from. You probably just heard it somewhere and assume it's true.

2) in the Iran/Iraq war, both sides used chemical weapons against eachother.

In one particular battle, the Iranians had taken control of a Kurdish village in Iraq and a battle then took place in this village. Both sides used chemical weapons in this battle. The soldiers on both sides had protective gear, but unfortunately the civilians did not and many of them died (I think the number was in the many hundreds).

Shortly after this battle, many countries around the world passed legislation for sanctions against both Iran and Iraq for their use of chemical weapons, since banned by the Geneva Conventions. Congress passed a similar bill calling for U.S. sanctions against Iraq (we already had sanctions against Iran), but Reagan vetoed the bill. When asked why at a press converence, he cited a Defense Dept. report which had just been relased which said that the evidence showed that it was the Iranian gas which killed the Kurds and not the Iraqi gas (each side used a different kind of gas).

Makes you wonder why nobody in the mainstream press wanted to float this report the last few months. Instead, they repeat the charge over and over that "Saddam gassed his own people" and most Americans picture Iraqi soldiers going into Kurdish towns and gassing innocent civilians for no other reason than to torture them. This is a clear misrepresentation of the truth and was done to rally support for this unnecessary war.

 

[NSX/MR2]

Since you are showering us with your vast knowledge. Tell me what is the difference between biological and chemical weapon? Then give me an example for both. Please, don't break out the book.