ASCC/NSX headed back to drawing board?

[BD]

Well, the engine in the JDM Honda Vigor/Inspire was a 2.0 liter I5, when they brought the Vigor to the states, they bored out the engine to 2.5, which later was adapted in JDM market. The inline 5 engine in the Vigor/Inpire was one of the longest production engine in Honda history, and it was proven reliable.

I believe Honda did that because Volvo, VW, Audi all had the I5 program and Honda like the idea and excercised it with their brand.

If you have driven a Vigor, you will find the engine is smooth and powerful. However, I haven't heard much in the US regarding their reliability record, which is a good thing because if it had problems, consumer report would had a field day with Honda.

 

[NSXGMS]

Considering the fact that M5/6, Gallardo, Viper all run on V10 with good reliability record, you don't need decades to prove the design works. I think Honda will make it even better. I love the idea of V10!!! Imagine a 5 liter v10 with 550HP before any owners does any mods!!!

Since when do these engines have a good reliability record? They're brand new! What record is there? Vibration issues are clearly not a myth. Uehera believes it is possible these engines will not last over 60K miles and we're not likely to find out anytime soon as the vast majority of M5/6 and Gallardos are hardly driven.

True, all F1 engines are essentially built to last only as long as they have to but that's why Ferrari's success with the V-10 in F1 is immaterial. F1 is not a very good indicator of long-term reliability. Both Renault & Ferrari's road car engines have never been that great anyway--even through the Schumacher era. And Honda makes some of the best road car engines in the world but how many times has their F1 engine blown up in the last 3 years? An F1 engine and a road car engine are so different it's not even worth discussing.

The Viper engine is not even in the same category. It is not a high-revving engine by any stretch and is less prone to vibration issues. You can have a 6,000 rpm redline when you have 8.0 liters. The 1st gen Vipers always sounded like they were crying in pain over 4000 rpm.

 

[BladesNSX]

Since when do these engines have a good reliability record? They're brand new! What record is there? Vibration issues are clearly not a myth. Uehera believes it is possible these engines will not last over 60K miles and we're not likely to find out anytime soon as the vast majority of M5/6 and Gallardos are hardly driven.

Is someone familiar with a reliable Lambo Forum where there is a "Highest Milage" thread. I'm curious how many Lambos out there have high milage V10 engines and the reliability from the owners.

Honda makes some of the best road car engines in the world but how many times has their F1 engine blown up in the last 3 years? An F1 engine and a road car engine are so different it's not even worth discussing.

True, Honda has had a lackluster performance in terms of Engine reliability over the past 3 years. Remember, Honda had a long stint of victories and good engine reliability in F1 in the past. What impact does this have on their roadcar engines I don't know. I'm sure Honda gleans some helpful experience from their motorsports division in regards to designing their road cars.

 

[BD]

Since when do these engines have a good reliability record? They're brand new! What record is there? Vibration issues are clearly not a myth. Uehera believes it is possible these engines will not last over 60K miles and we're not likely to find out anytime soon as the vast majority of M5/6 and Gallardos are hardly driven.

True, all F1 engines are essentially built to last only as long as they have to but that's why Ferrari's success with the V-10 in F1 is immaterial. F1 is not a very good indicator of long-term reliability. Both Renault & Ferrari's road car engines have never been that great anyway--even through the Schumacher era. And Honda makes some of the best road car engines in the world but how many times has their F1 engine blown up in the last 3 years? An F1 engine and a road car engine are so different it's not even worth discussing.

The Viper engine is not even in the same category. It is not a high-revving engine by any stretch and is less prone to vibration issues. You can have a 6,000 rpm redline when you have 8.0 liters. The 1st gen Vipers always sounded like they were crying in pain over 4000 rpm.

I think entering its 5th year production for the Gallardo, with no major problems with the engine reported, I’d say it is a reliable power plant. However, I don't think it will be fair to compare what the Germans has done and what Honda will be doing because the maintenance is also part of the package. Honda will be able to go through 100k before first schedule major maintenance while the European counterpart requires good attention for it to last.

Remember the old days how people used to bag on Ferrari's? I see many 308/328/348 with over 100k miles and the owners are quite contempt with the car, even though they have to spend shit loads of money to keep it running smooth, but once they kept proper maintenance, those car do last. Same thing goes with Porsche. I have never seen a Turbo motor as reliable as those cars. But poorly maintained car, including our beloved NSX can take a dive just as easy.

As for Viper, even though OHV is not in the same league as DOHC, it is still V10, which shares the same vibration problem, but the engine has proven to be reliable in Vipers and their trucks.

Modern day car's reliability record on their engines has a lot to do with maintenance up keep, if the owners do it right, the engine will do just fine.

So this brings back Honda's attempt on V10, what make you think it will be any less reliable than the Legend derived V6 in our current car?

 

[NSXGMS]

I see many 308/328/348 with over 100k miles and the owners are quite contempt with the car, even though they have to spend shit loads of money to keep it running smooth...

Very true. :wink: I think contempt is the most accurate word. :biggrin: :tongue:

I think we all know many Ferrari owners get off on having to dump money into their cars. The fact that they are content in meaningless. I've seen more Ferrari's break down at the track than run straight through all day. And it's mostly drivetrain trouble. Any car can run smoothly with enough $.

So this brings back Honda's attempt on V10, what make you think it will be any less reliable than the Legend derived V6 in our current car?

Well, I'm not really against Honda developing a V-10 as much as baffled as to why they failed to create a slam-dunk V-8 which would logically be a better fit for a performance car. The F22C1 is an outrageously brilliant platform for a high-performance V-8 and I just can't figure out why Honda is so obsessed with the V-10 when they could have already had a 480hp V-8 developed and working years ago. Honda's philosophy has never been immense power and really--how much more power do you need than 480hp at this point in time? That engine in a 2900 lb race-tuned HSC would have been mind-blowing and Ferrari-beating.

All I'm saying is I'm frustrated that Honda is putting all this energy into a V-10 when they could have been using that time & money a little more wisely IMO. Honda doesn't need to develop a V-10 to be successful. There are only 3 V-10s on the road. I'm sure Honda's V-10 will be the best V-10 ever made but I just can't wrap my head around why they are going in this direction at this time.

I'm not someone who believes Honda is always right. I can't necessarily blame them for discontinuing the NSX per se but the fact is the utter failure to update and market the original car in it's middle-later years was a huge mistake for Honda, period. Honda has consistently shown they are a day late and a dollar short for many years now and this just seems like more of the same. :frown:

Also, I'd be a little more excited about the ASCC if it was indeed true that Honda was committed to extensively using exotic materials and cutting-edge technology for the car as you suggest but that is far from certain. We know the original design was steel and almost no mention of Al or CF or a paddle-shift. And the fact that they believe the ASCC is the "NSX successor" makes me think they have lost sight of what the NSX is meant to be.

Do I hope the ASCC is a ZO6 beater for under 100K? Absolutely. I just don't see it happening based on the current info.

 

[GTOne-Japan]

Hello Gents,
Not official but they will probably price it about 20-30k more than the new Skyline GT-R. The article quoting Mr. Fukui is super accurate and hats off to the translator:wink: I posted awhile back that the design was coming back to Japan and it is just surfacing to reality. The performance as well will probably not be in the 500hp range initially-this is not to say the Type-R version won't have that power (yes, there will be one!) but the car is still being manufactured to sell in Japan and exported to the rest of the world, and no one needs that type of power here. Or shall I say, no one wants to pay for that type of power. Also the SH-AWD technology is great, but the Legend is not selling so well here, at least not compared to the Lexus. Looks good but even with the Mugen body kits it still can't compete with the prestige the Lexus brand brings to the table, that is here in Japan of course. Hell, even Mr. Tamura wants a Lexus! The IS Evolution though. Nice car I have to admit. All of the magazines in Japan are still slating 2009 as the sale date and I believe we will see something pretty close to production in the next coming months as we are already halfway through this year and that leaves only about a year of refining left before the production lines should be set to start pumping out however many cars a day they plan to sell. But on the flipside, with the Toyota/Lexus cars doing so well in the GT races and the GT-R being slated to join the 350Z in the coming years, it makes it that much more important for Honda to produce a winning design on the roadgoing end in order to keep folks interested in Honda motorsports. Remember the awe Type-R used to bring, 5 of the best Type-R's on the track-no wins...nothing amazing there.
DJ

 

[areout]

You have to remember the light weight is a positive factor (think lotus). I think pushing more towards the 400hp range with light weight would be nice. As far as this car being a F430 competitor...well :redface:

Well for being F430 competitor... "Because of its lighter weight, the NSX was slightly faster than the 348 in straight-line acceleration."

So I guess new one has to be slightly faster than F430 so that ppl would buy it instead of F.

And about light weight it cant be lighter than first NSX (remember that new Civic is like 30% heavier than one from 1990.), it will have AC, audio system etc. etc.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Huh it wouldnt be competitive at all with 350HP, IMO anything under 500HP = disaster.

Remember, I said also that it should be max 70k and have a stunning look, exotic, light and reliable!

Why do we need a NSX that has 500hp?!

In 1991 270hp where far from the 400hp that the supercar of that era were showing, and so what?

 

[areout]

Nah it was not competitor to some supercar but to F348 which had 300 HP or so but because NSX was considerably lighter it was slightly faster, now F430 is successor to F348 and NSX has to be slightly faster than it too, so they need that 500 HP as they cant bring mass down. It will have AC and all stuff + bunch of airbags and safety measures which increase mass.

Of all these above we only know it will be reliable, and probably exotic...not so sure about stunning look light and max 70K, remember you cant have exotic which is priced at 70K, you cant buy new BMW M3 for that money.

 

[BD]

Remember, I said also that it should be max 70k and have a stunning look, exotic, light and reliable!

Why do we need a NSX that has 500hp?!

In 1991 270hp where far from the 400hp that the supercar of that era were showing, and so what?

Time has changed. When MB, BMW, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, etc. offers that kinda power, Toyota and Honda has to follow. If they want to make a car costing over 100k.

270 in 1991 was only 30 shy from 348. Similar.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Time has changed. When MB, BMW, Ferrari, Lambo, Audi, etc. offers that kinda power, Toyota and Honda has to follow. If they want to make a car costing over 100k.

270 in 1991 was only 30 shy from 348. Similar.

Do not forget however the price difference: the NSX was maybe 20k$ less of a F348 in 1991, around 30% more in price.

My opinion is that th NSX should cost 70ish, that means that enry level Ferrari, F430, would cost 100% more than the 350hp NSX.

And 350hp is plenty enough power if the weight is kept low, causing less costs in maintenance and gas (--> differentiating your product from the others) to the user and less development cost on the producer.

 

[gheba_nsx]

Of all these above we only know it will be reliable, and probably exotic...not so sure about stunning look light and max 70K, remember you cant have exotic which is priced at 70K, you cant buy new BMW M3 for that money.

Why not? Exotice = not many around... price a Honda at 70k and I am sure it will still remain exotic. Price it at 150k and you will never see one on the road...

PS: a M3 for 95% of the population is a dream car, is a status symbol and it carries brand recognition. You cannot downplay 70k by saying that it is a very low amount of money for a Honda by comparing it to price of the M3... most people would still prefer a M3 against a new NSX just because of status and brand.

 

[areout]

When we are at that when NSX production started it had 276 hp and M3...195 or so (very rare Evolution models had 200-220). Now M3 has 420 hp. Solve the equation

About branding when ppl are giving half a million bucks for Saleen or Koenigsegg why not 100K for Honda supercar?!

 

[BladesNSX]

Why not? Exotice = not many around... price a Honda at 70k and I am sure it will still remain exotic. Price it at 150k and you will never see one on the road...

PS: a M3 for 95% of the population is a dream car, is a status symbol and it carries brand recognition. You cannot downplay 70k by saying that it is a very low amount of money for a Honda by comparing it to price of the M3... most people would still prefer a M3 against a new NSX just because of status and brand.

Yes, here in Miami (Land of the rich and wannabee rich) it's all about status and image. You will see a plethora of BMWs, Benzs, Porches, Audis, Ferrari, Bentley, etc.

For the life of me, I cannot understand the appeal of BMWs. I was with a buddy of mine last night who JUST bought a Brand New BMW 528. When we both were leaving the parking garage, he had to open his door to pay the teller because his window will not go down. The car has only a few thousand miles on it!!

I'm sorry, I have to agree with Gheba completely on this one. If the V10 will push the NSX well over $100k, that is going to hurt. It means it will be years before I can afford one *USED*. Also, as I stated before, I highly doubt there will be many car enthusiasts her are 'enthused' into buying a $150k Honda. Now, if I could afford it, I would buy it. The NSX has left a loving mark on many NSX owners like me. Unfortunately, how many of us could afford a $150k NSX??

Gheba, don't you think they can get more than 350hp from that V8

 

[BD]

Do not forget however the price difference: the NSX was maybe 20k$ less of a F348 in 1991, around 30% more in price.

My opinion is that th NSX should cost 70ish, that means that enry level Ferrari, F430, would cost 100% more than the 350hp NSX.

And 350hp is plenty enough power if the weight is kept low, causing less costs in maintenance and gas (--> differentiating your product from the others) to the user and less development cost on the producer.

Considering the fact that a S2k Club Sport is going to be $40k, what makes you think the ASC can achieve the 70k price goal? If Honda stick a C32B or similar power plant into the S2k (or it’s replacement), it will add about at least $15k to the car (bigger engine, additional enforcement, better interior); if in CS form, it will be $55K to $60K, and the car will eat up most of the cars on the road, including any stock NSX, why not just do that?

If the ASC is priced in the low $100k range, it will be at least the half going rate of a F430, 1/4 of SLR Vision and 1/3 of F599.

The performance will probably be similar; therefore, it should be considered as a bargain. If the car wouldn’t sell, it is still required to have it in the market as a halo car. Specially if Lexus is going to built one too!!

Regardless, I do believe Honda has another car in the pipeline, in 70k range that will perform like the NSX. The platform it there, all they have to do is built it. There were report of two prototype cars circling around Tochigi, perhaps they were for two different cars?

NSX was selling extremely well when introduced, many have argued that the reason the sales dropped dramatically was mostly due to recession (probably explained why most car manufactures didn’t have any hyper sports car in the market during that period), let’s just hope we don’t get one of those.

 

[HYPERTUNE]

I am still perplexed as to why Honda hasn't spent the last 8 years figuring out how to stick two F22C1 S2000 engines together.

They'd have a small, lightweight, high-revving 480hp V-8. With the additions of constantly variable valve timing and Ti con-rods it would have plenty of torque in the low end and a 9,000 rpm redline. :wink:

Not sure what Honda is thinking these days but if they were going to create a V-8 they would have done so by now--or at least announced it. The F22C1 was an outstanding platform from which to create a performance V-8. They don't even want to create a V-8 for their trucks! Maybe that's why Toyota keeps bashing Honda's brains in. But I guess Honda's only really interested in secrecy, misdirection, procrastination, delays, and, as we've seen with the ASCC, whimsy and lack of foresight. Particularly all these things in regards to their performance cars.

I doubt Honda will ever manufacture a V engine based on the f22. The problem with using the F20/22 is that the relatively small bore (87mm) and close bore spacing leave too little room to fit adequately sized bearings and crank webs. Even if they did use the F20 as a base, there is little that could be transferred over to a v engine, other than parts of the cyl head mechanism, and possibly pistons.

 

[BladesNSX]

Considering the fact that a S2k Club Sport is going to be $40k, what makes you think the ASC can achieve the 70k price goal? If Honda stick a C32B or similar power plant into the S2k (or it’s replacement), it will add about at least $15k to the car (bigger engine, additional enforcement, better interior); if in CS form, it will be $55K to $60K, and the car will eat up most of the cars on the road, including any stock NSX, why not just do that?

If the ASC is priced in the low $100k range, it will be at least the half going rate of a F430, 1/4 of SLR Vision and 1/3 of F599.

The performance will probably be similar; therefore, it should be considered as a bargain. If the car wouldn’t sell, it is still required to have it in the market as a halo car. Specially if Lexus is going to built one too!!

Regardless, I do believe Honda has another car in the pipeline, in 70k range that will perform like the NSX. The platform it there, all they have to do is built it. There were report of two prototype cars circling around Tochigi, perhaps they were for two different cars?

Vance,

I beleive Gheba was talking about the next NSX not the ASCC (I think). I too was speaking about the next NSX (with the assumption of a Mid-Engine Layout). I really have no speculation about the ASCC if anything like it is actually produces. I also had no idea Honda was thinking of upgrading the S2K with a V6.

So, are you saying you believe that the ASCC should be priced in the low $100k?? What price do you think the next NSX should be priced??

 

[gheba_nsx]

I beleive Gheba was talking about the next NSX not the ASCC (I think). I too was speaking about the next NSX (with the assumption of a Mid-Engine Layout). I really have no speculation about the ASCC if anything like it is actually produces.

Yes sir I was referring to the new NSX. The ASCC? What is that? :tongue:

Gheba, don't you think they can get more than 350hp from that V8

I am sure they could, but is it really needed? I would prefer a better gas mileage, cheaper running costs, more low end torque and a light 350hp car. Make it 370hp or something similar in case it has to be more, but please, do not push it in the crazy numbers (>400hp and aboce, even if they sound normal today). The idea behind the NSX has never been something like that!

 

[BD]

Vance,

I beleive Gheba was talking about the next NSX not the ASCC (I think). I too was speaking about the next NSX (with the assumption of a Mid-Engine Layout). I really have no speculation about the ASCC if anything like it is actually produces. I also had no idea Honda was thinking of upgrading the S2K with a V6.

So, are you saying you believe that the ASCC should be priced in the low $100k?? What price do you think the next NSX should be priced??

But at the moment, there is no "next NSX." So why waste time discuss a phamtom car people dream about instead of what Honda WILL built?

 

[gheba_nsx]

But at the moment, there is no "next NSX." So why waste time discuss a phamtom car people dream about instead of what Honda WILL built?

Yes but at the moment there is no even ASCC. it is sent back to the drawing board and likely Honda will not produce anything until 2010... so why are we speaking about this? Because it is fun.

 

[BD]

Yes but at the moment there is no even ASCC. it is sent back to the drawing board and likely Honda will not produce anything until 2010... so why are we speaking about this? Because it is fun.

But the thing is, there will be a ASC. Just because it's going back to the drawing board, that does not mean Honda is going "draw" the engine to the back of the car and make it cheaper. BTW, it is still on Acura's website. This so called "going back to the drawing board" is just a rumor some one started here.

What is this 2010? Make stuff up again? Or that's your prediction?

Acutally, no big deal anyway, because when the real deal is introduceded, according to Honda, it will be FR, so as most of you have indicated - "Not interested," Honda just have to find new buyers. OR, not selling any at all.

 

[Silver F16]

Has any V10 engines such as Gallardo or M5/M6 hit 60K miles? If so, how is the engine running? Good as new or starting to shaking itself to pieces? If Uehara is saying the V10 vibration problems are a concern, what basis do we have to counter that?

I've driven new Acura Vigor with the Inline 5 and the vibration characteristics feels more like a Honda 4 cylinder than a 6 cylinder.

Much like some have said, give us a V8 based on S2000 components updated with Advance Vtec. But then again, Fukui is chasing after glamor and Glory with his V10. More glory with more cylinders. That's certain not Soichiro's way.

 

[BladesNSX]

......there is no "next NSX."

BLASPHEMY!!! ​

 

[BD]

BLASPHEMY!!! ​

Let me say that again!!!
THERE IS NO NEXT NSX!!!:biggrin: :tongue:

In case you haven't figure that out yet, Honda even said so!!!

ASC was called the successor to the NSX.

550 Maranello was the successor to the 512 TR/Testrossa.

MR to FR.

But a successor don't have to be similar to wha it replaces.

The alphabet ASC does not = NSX.
ASC = Advance Sports Car
NSX = New Sports Experimental.


Opus = Masterpiece = NSX
Therefore, a masterpiece shall not be replaced.
A new masterpiece can be presented, but it will not be the same as the old masterpiece

Unfortunatly, the sequal may not be as good as the first one. Just look at Jurrasic Park, Superman, Pirates of Carribean, etc. etc. :biggrin:



Trust me, I don't think there is another Prime member that is as dispointed as I am, but life goes on. I'm looking forward to the ASC, hopefully it is worth Honda's Hype so i can buy one.

 

[BladesNSX]

Let me say that again!!!
THERE IS NO NEXT NSX!!!:biggrin: :tongue:

In case you haven't figure that out yet, Honda even said so!!!

ASC was called the successor to the NSX.

550 Maranello was the successor to the 512 TR/Testrossa.

MR to FR.

But a successor don't have to be similar to wha it replaces.

The alphabet ASC does not = NSX.
ASC = Advance Sports Car
NSX = New Sports Experimental.


Opus = Masterpiece = NSX
Therefore, a masterpiece shall not be replaced.
A new masterpiece can be presented, but it will not be the same as the old masterpiece

Unfortunatly, the sequal may not be as good as the first one. Just look at Jurrasic Park, Superman, Pirates of Carribean, etc. etc. :biggrin:



Trust me, I don't think there is another Prime member that is as dispointed as I am, but life goes on. I'm looking forward to the ASC, hopefully it is worth Honda's Hype so i can buy one.

Well then!! I see an immediate solution: I MUST HAVE YOUR GORGEOUS CAR!!

It's seems adequately BLADE like. Yes, Yes, In five years Hence, Your car must be MINE!!