Anyone look at the Gallardo next to the NSX? Seems smaller....but I guess the gallardo lost its trunk.
ASCC/NSX headed back to drawing board?
- Thread starter White98LS
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Anyone look at the Gallardo next to the NSX? Seems smaller....but I guess the gallardo lost its trunk.
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Because the limiting factor is the HSC chassis is based on the NSX chassis. It just not wide enough to add 2 more cylinders to the width, unless HOnda makes a 3 liter V10 engine.
Below is the Japanese Magazine interview with Mr. Uehara translated by Vancehu
"Target Weight: 1200kg to 1300kg (2650lbs to 2866 lbs) depending on the "Type" variation.
Example in the article: Ferrari F430 is 1460kg (3219lb)
Concept Considered: HSC with a improved and enlarged C32B Block; a 3.6 liter V6 which produced between 350 to 400PS depend on the tuning of the engine: Final phase of the HSC accomplished 0-60 in 4 seconds and ¼ mile in 12 seconds, which slot the car into 360 Modena and Porsche Turbo Cabrio territory. It was also the cheapest route Honda could have taken because little re-tooling is required. HSC chassis was a heavily modified NSX Chassis. Mr. Uehera would have been happy with the performance result of the HSC - if it was going to be built two years ago, but it was a good thing that they didn't, because the result would have ended like the original NSX, which will not fare well with the current competitors, and a V6 will not be welcome by the “press.” The introduction of the F430 proved his point. “The boss scrapped the HSC because he wanted more! Because it wasn't “stunning enough. The Original NSX was intended to compete with Porsche 911, Ferrari 328/348. However, after 15 years, 911 have surpassed the NSX in many areas, and Ferrari F430 is truly ahead of the NSX in almost every way; therefore, it's time to reset the standard.”
Target Power from two Prototype Engines:
Small V10: “Around” 3.5L over 400PS approaching 10,000RPM. This engine was considered during the first phase of development, but not a desired size, and could pose major reliability issues. However, if the target weight is not met, a reconsideration of reviving this size is a possibility, if additional power can be obtain without sacrificing reliability.
Large V10: “Around” 5.0L Approaching 500PS, this is a more likely choice - Requested by the current CEO.
Honda will have it as the “lightest” in its class with best power to weight ratio - As before.
Issues faced: It is rather easy to squeeze over 100hp/liter plus on 4 or 6 cylinder Engines; however, it is rather difficult to accomplish the same task on a large displacement, let's say, a 5 Liter engine. The problem is, a traditional V10 have series of vibration problems; therefore, to solve those problems and achieve “over” 100hp/liter (at the same time) will be a major challenge (That is why Ferrari stick with V8 and V12, and Gallardo's V10 will probably not last more than 60k miles without any major overhaul, and same can be said about BMW's M5/6's V10). "There were V10 prototypes built during the early 90's, when Honda was offered a deal to supply their detune but enlarged F1 Engine for the McLaren F1 road car project; however, the idea was deleted by the bearcats within the company, because they didn't understand the magnitude of that project. They were pushing to end the F1 Engine Program and to cut ties with McLaren International; therefore, the idea to supply Engine to McLaren never solidified. Imagine if the McLaren F1 had a Honda Engine...."
N/A Porsche 911 is no longer a targeted competitor, because the auto press has always prejudiced the V6 in the NSX, but somehow never bash 911's flat 6! F430 and Gallardo will be the main target, and perhaps those higher models such as Porsche GT and McLaren MB SLR Vision, because if you think about it, the performance between the F430 and SLR Vision is not too far apart, other than the top speed. “In order to compete with these cars, the HP rating will have to be over 500, and we have enough times to work out the bugs on the V10.” By the time the Neo NSX is ready for production, 500ps will be common between most of the manufactures.
Aerodynamically, the car needs to be able to sustain 200 miles per hour. Toyota is working on a 200mph car; therefore… The design of an ideal aerodynamic shape will take great amount of time; plenty of testing is required in order to meet that speed with great stability and safety. The approach of obtaining that speed will be genuine.
Uehera jokingly mentioned, “If the next generation NSX should last another 15 years production cycle. The car has to be a technological wonder; however, still allows major upgrades in order to compete with the future replacement of F430 and Gallardo.”
During the design process of the original NSX, exotics such as 328/348 and 911 all had “3 liter class” engines, because it was the standard in an Exotic (small block with high PS rating); however, the approach has changed through time. The only way to get more PS is to build bigger engines. Ferrari for example, redesigned the entire chassis on the 308/328 replacements to allowed bigger engines to be fitted. From 348 and on, the reversal of trunk and radiator location was the evident of this new approach. This method also shifted the weight distribution more to the rear. Unfortunately, the NSX was originally designed to meet the “3 liter class as well as the gentleman's rule of 280ps for the domestic market; also under the consideration was the domestic market taxation on engine size greater than 3.0 liter, which was much higher; those rules set gave the design team the base blueprint for the NA1 NSX.” It was a conservative move but left no room for expansion. However, the original package was ideal in a sense of performance during that time period, and the method of Carbon Reinforced Metal liner allowed us to temporary step up in the HP game. We had to hear complaints from JDM customers because the American model got 10 more PS on paper. “We all know Skyline GTR and NSX-R had more - way more, but we can't disclose it! There is only so much we can do to a production 3.2-liter engine. However, after the release of the new Honda Legend (aka Acura RL) - We broke the gentleman's rule, and the NSX will be our next offender.”
Again jokingly, “Ferrari lured most of our F1 Engineers to design engines for their F1 and road cars - After our (Honda) withdraw from F1 in 1992. Mr. Gato (Head of Honda V10 and V12 F1 Engine Program between 1988 to 1992) used to often called me from the Ferrari factory (where he was working) and telling me they really should slap a big H on the Ferrari's Engine Block and Ferrari F1 cars were powered by Honda.”
Since a “Large” V10 is the desired power plant, in order to offset the weight of the engine, construction Materials such as Aluminum and CF is a must - If the desire target weight is going to be met; the use of titanium is under consideration. It will help to meet the promised word of “break through.” However, the cost of manufacturing of titanium will be a major issue, because it is extremely difficult to work with. Even though the cost is not quite an issue, we will make a logical decision. “Same thing happen when we wanted an all aluminum chassis, and the cost of the manufacturing was enormous, but we did it anyway. We are considering how to implement titanium parts other than just the connecting rod.”
As for the SH-AWD, it is under consideration, but most likely be scrap due to the weight gain, and Mr. Uehera favors MR platform only - But may offer SH-AWD as an option if the market desires it.
Honda would like to win the F1 title before the premier of the new NSX, that is why the target release date is set “3 to 4” years from now. By then, Honda will have enough information on how to deal with the next generation of Italian Exotics. Last word from Uehera “When the CEO jokingly mentioned the V10 NSX will be faster than the new V8 F1 cars, he probably wasn't far off!).
As for the cost for the car - Honda will strategically place the car in the proper tier, just like the original NSX, little higher than standard 911, but lower than a Ferrari. Here is my interpretation from reading the article, a Ferrari F430 and Gallardo beater at Porsche Turbo price. After all, Honda does hope to sell more “New” NSX than the out going model - at a shorter time frame. However, they cannot predict the future, so we'll have to wait and see if the world economy can support this car, or any other car in this price tier…. The original approach of 25 cars a day and 6000 per year will not be part of the plan, because the goal wasn't realistic. After all, the purpose for the existence of NSX is not to make money, but to showcase what Honda can do. NSX is matter of company Pride - R&D cost will eventually filter down to other production cars. "
Oh snap! So Fukui is the MF that got the HSC cancelledI do not like this man! Had I known this his ( Fukui ) trip to Detroit would've been very different! No I'm not apologizing for these comments either!
Is it coincidence that Fukui could also be spelled Fuckyoueee?! :biggrin:
Silver F16....thats some damn good info! Does anyone know what the true HP for the NA2 NSX-R was?
Ha! Bye Bye ASCC! oh well, there was only one person that liked it anyways (WingZ) :wink:
Bring on the HSC!
Bring on the HSC!
Why use the ancient Legend block when for years, even Accords, have moved on to the 21st century with new engines?
Heavily modified NSX chassis? Would've been nice........in 1997. It might work today, for somewhere between $60 to $70K, but what does utilizing antiquated technology showcase about Honda? Not much.
No it's not a coincidence. Actually, I think I might've have his name correctly deciphered.
This is what his name REALLY stands for:
FUKUI = F*K + U + i (invert the letter "i") =
F*K U !
Apparently this is his intended message to all Honda fans out there when he unveiled the ASCC at the Detroit Auto Show.
Nan-chatte, Joodan desu, Fukui-san.
(Fukui-san, I know you're reading this, so please accept my most humble apology for being a jackass.
) Sincerely,
Biru-san.
Good ridance to that piece of junk! It looked like one of Batman's shoes. If the people at Honda have their heads screwed on straight and want to compete with REAL sportscars they will go back to the mid-engine design. Especially if the price range is to be that high. Everyone and his mother produces front-engined cars . To be truly exotic and run with the big boys they need a mid-engined car. There is no reason why it can't be done--unless they're afraid of being beaten by Ferrari and Lamborghini. With all of the refinements and technology which have occurred since the intro of the NSX, it could be the #1 exotic in the world, if Honda has the nerve.
One has to wonder if the ASCC was sent out as a distraction in the first place. Wave one hand while the other hand is doing something else. Maybe just to keep the anticipation of a NSX successor alive at auto shows while they prepare for the real thing to be unveiled.
If the Fiero guys can swap V8 Northstar engines into their cars, I don't see why Acura couldn't get a small modern aluminum V8 horizontally mount in the back.
I will bet $100.00 that Honda will NOT come out with an NSX replacement... this century. You don't do a rev 2 on a failed financial disaster...
You don't provide a Microsoft Bob #2 just because there are a few die hards that would sell certain parts of their body to buy them.
How many prime members are here that would *actually* buy the car? A few hundred at most? Honda's not there to spend billions to meet the needs of a few hundered people .... even if you multiply that by a godo bit..
I see a few options for those that want a super-duper NSX.
1.) Take their current NSX, spend lots of money and make it the <insert favorit adjectives here> mid-engine car. This isn't hard just takes $$. A Supercharged, tune'd, lightened NSX is a force to be reckon with even with today's supercars.
2.) Buy the Audi R8.
3.) Shut up...:tongue:
I see nothing wrong with #1. Just takes some time & money..
You don't provide a Microsoft Bob #2 just because there are a few die hards that would sell certain parts of their body to buy them.
How many prime members are here that would *actually* buy the car? A few hundred at most? Honda's not there to spend billions to meet the needs of a few hundered people .... even if you multiply that by a godo bit..
I see a few options for those that want a super-duper NSX.
1.) Take their current NSX, spend lots of money and make it the <insert favorit adjectives here> mid-engine car. This isn't hard just takes $$. A Supercharged, tune'd, lightened NSX is a force to be reckon with even with today's supercars.
2.) Buy the Audi R8.
3.) Shut up...:tongue:
I see nothing wrong with #1. Just takes some time & money..
How about we substitute number two with NA2 coupe with HSC kit:biggrin:
Sorry I just don't dig the R8:wink:
I think that Honda would be foolish to not create an heir to the NSX. They need a showcase car much like the NSX for the purpose of marketing their name and technology which will help to sell the mainstream cars. They may not get their investment back directly through the sales of the new supercar, but will through sales of their everyday cars.
I also don't see the NSX as a financial disaster per se. Indeed, it may not have made money for Honda, but I'm sure that Honda's accountants figured that out some time early in its 15 year run. The NSX was also not a very heavily marketed car (which is why people think that it's either a Corvette or Ferrari). While it would have been nice, I don't think that Honda was looking for a cash cow in the NSX. I think that it served as a showcase platform which is what I think the successor will or should be.
The NSX became technologically outdated a while back, but I think that Honda kept it in the market because it was the best they had. I believe that after the death of Soichio Honda, the accountants took over the decision making and lost sight of what made Honda successful in the first place. Thus, the NSX stagnated and milked its awesome introduction dry by not being new for far too long.
Another reason why they have to come out with a successor is because they have already said that they would. Backing out now will seal their fate of being a "has-been". They need it for the respect: Another reason why they really have to get this next car just right.
I also don't see the NSX as a financial disaster per se. Indeed, it may not have made money for Honda, but I'm sure that Honda's accountants figured that out some time early in its 15 year run. The NSX was also not a very heavily marketed car (which is why people think that it's either a Corvette or Ferrari). While it would have been nice, I don't think that Honda was looking for a cash cow in the NSX. I think that it served as a showcase platform which is what I think the successor will or should be.
The NSX became technologically outdated a while back, but I think that Honda kept it in the market because it was the best they had. I believe that after the death of Soichio Honda, the accountants took over the decision making and lost sight of what made Honda successful in the first place. Thus, the NSX stagnated and milked its awesome introduction dry by not being new for far too long.
Another reason why they have to come out with a successor is because they have already said that they would. Backing out now will seal their fate of being a "has-been". They need it for the respect: Another reason why they really have to get this next car just right.
If that's the case they'd also have to have it introduced by 09 and that seems unlikely.
Also Honda is hardly a "has been". Honda still sells a whole lot of cars and trucks. They've just been disappointing they're old enthusiast followers as of late by not offering any new sportscars:frown:
Honda, is.... and will stay strong. But ACURA seems lost for direction since Honda went "Green" and Lexus became an official American Status symbol (I still haven't seen a stripper use "Acura" as her stage name...but Lexus is all over the stage).
Acura lost its way. F1 and NSX showcase engineer's talent in going fast!...but Honda going Green, leaves Acura drifting.... how can we be Greener? Super Green? Who wants to buy that?
Should be about 320bhp.
Anyway, if Audi is going ahead with the R8 I don't see why Honda's so afraid of building an NSX successor. It would steal a lot of the potential R8 & LF-A buyers since Honda/Acura and the NSX are now established and proven.
If Audi can do it, Honda can do it better and cheaper. No, the next NSX won't be as groundbreaking as the original but that's because the NSX came out at a very unique time in auto history. The NSX was a huge reality check for anyone making exotic/performance cars and consequently everyone stepped up their game--something that's carried over for the last 17 years.
But again, whatever anyone can do, Honda should be able to do it better and cheaper.
Surely cars like the ASC aren't going to be super-profitable for Honda anyway. Honda wants to do something but why not just carry over the NSX concept instead of trying to force this ASC down the market's throat?
True, the NSX was a pathetic seller but I will always argue that Honda bears nearly all the blame for that. In all honesty, we should be looking at the NSX III for 2009, not the NSX II. I get a lot of heat for this but the HSC should have been introduced in 2002. The 02+ NSX should have debuted in 97-98, not 02. The NA2 should have debuted in 94-95. Honda updated the NSX anyway--how many more units would they have sold if they simply updated earlier? No solid marketing either.
Not to mention I'm pulling my hair out trying to figure out why Honda didn't develop two S2000 I4s into a 480hp V8.
Transverse mounting would not be an issue with that engine either.
I just don't know why Honda could be so afraid of the NSX concept being a failure when they have to know there were ways to vastly minimize the damage through the years.
I agree all I think they needed to do is tweak the HSC and keep it light and it would have been great. I think Honda 4got what made the original NSX great
For $150K, I'll take a Ford GT. (And I don't even like Ford.)
how about just get rid of the trunk and cramp a V10 :biggrin:
i never use the trunk anyway...
i never use the trunk anyway...
Ski_Banker
Suspended
I think the initial success of the R8 means that Honda is even less likely to do another MR NSX-like car. It's a pretty niche market and Audi has a much better brand, without the headaches of Ferrari & Lambo ownership. A direct R8 competitor would be a bad idea, but maybe a super lightweight 90% track oriented car like another NSX-R would sell a little and be worthy flagship.
THAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANKY YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!
WHY oh WHY is this hard for HONDA to Do?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Couldnt agree more, I mean 95% of drivers would be faster on track with SH-AWD but its about fun and making YOU drive faster, not the car. Put air condition as option (or even easily removable, that would be COOL).
That NSX-R is gr8 car anyway (are there some with wheel on left side or are all of them RHD?).
Just watched the R8 being put thrupgh its paces and it looks good. Design has grown on me, fit n finish look to be of Audi high quality.
Like this you mean....
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