Any Porsche alums?

[mikey175]

Hey y'all. Sorry in advance for this self-indulgent note, but I would appreciate the thoughts of those NSX owners who came from Porsche's or BMW M cars. I am considering a mid-90's NSX-T as a replacement to my 996 Targa. I love my car and, previously, enjoyed two E36 M3's. But, I find myself now looking for a car that I can grow old with and that will not bankrupt me in my retirement (i.e., low income) years. Am I fooling myself into believing that the NSX can:

-be my only car?
-be driven daily, comfortably, on suburban streets/highways?
-make me feel reasonably safe among the Hummers in the neighborhood and the 18 wheelers on the interstate? in rainy weather?
-if maintained well, be as reliable and relatively low-cost to maintain as my 80's vintage Prelude and Accord (loved those cars!);
-be used for ordinary suburban duties, including lugging golf clubs, dry cleaning, etc.?
-carry a bike rack on the rear trunk/bumper?
-offer the level of acceleration, cornering and handling that I've become used to?

Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts.

-- M

 

[WeakestLink]

I've had 5 996's from 99-03. (and a 97, 98, 01 and 04 NSX) Here are my opinions.

-be my only car? maybe, but you will miss the storage space of the "back seats" in the 996

-be driven daily, comfortably, on suburban streets/highways? yes

-make me feel reasonably safe among the Hummers in the neighborhood and the 18 wheelers on the interstate? in rainy weather? I don't think so. Although aluminum is strong, I would prefer the PSM, side airbags, etc of the 996

-if maintained well, be as reliable and relatively low-cost to maintain as my 80's vintage Prelude and Accord (loved those cars!); yes

-be used for ordinary suburban duties, including lugging golf clubs, dry cleaning, etc.? probably won't fit golf clubs (others may know better)

-carry a bike rack on the rear trunk/bumper? uhhhhhh......

-offer the level of acceleration, cornering and handling that I've become used to? maybe not acceleration, but definitely cornering and handling. The 997 may be easier to drive at fast speeds b/c of technology and b/c you can tell when you're at the limits. I think the NSX is kind of unpredictable in terms of when you're about to lose traction. That said, the NSX is more exciting b/c you have better road feel and feel like you are driving an F1.

I think the NSX is more fun to own and drive partly b/c of the road feel, partly b/c there aren't so many of them around. Although I may try out the 997 next year, I'm pretty happy with my 04 NSX.

 

[MJK]

FYI, you can fit 2 golf bags in the trunk if you take the drivers out the bag.

 

[mikey175]

WL --

Thank you for the thoughtful and quick response. But I had to laugh at one of your comments...never did I think the 996 would compare favorably to another car in terms of storage space!

-- M

 

[WeakestLink]

997 front trunk and two backseats > NSX rear trunk

 

[Acura NsX Pilot]

997 front trunk and two backseats > NSX rear trunk

The engine lid is great for transporting hot take out food and non heat sensitive items. I saw it being utilized alot at Nsxpo while people were packing on there way home. :biggrin:

 

[whiteNSXs]

I have had a 80 Targa, 84 Coupe, 85 Cab, and currently still have a 89 Cab. The NSX beats them in all aspects of a personal car. I know the 996 is a modern car and is completely different car than the 901/911. For the past 7 years, I have had a 1992, 1997, and now a 1994 NSX. Everytime I feel a little tired of the NSX, I grab my Excellent Magazine to find a new Porsche that I will trade the NSX for and I found none. The 997 looks very nice though.
Steve

 

[willabeest]

Hey y'all. Sorry in advance for this self-indulgent note, but I would appreciate the thoughts of those NSX owners who came from Porsche's or BMW M cars. I am considering a mid-90's NSX-T as a replacement to my 996 Targa. I love my car and, previously, enjoyed two E36 M3's. But, I find myself now looking for a car that I can grow old with and that will not bankrupt me in my retirement (i.e., low income) years. Am I fooling myself into believing that the NSX can:

-be my only car?
-be driven daily, comfortably, on suburban streets/highways?
-make me feel reasonably safe among the Hummers in the neighborhood and the 18 wheelers on the interstate? in rainy weather?
-if maintained well, be as reliable and relatively low-cost to maintain as my 80's vintage Prelude and Accord (loved those cars!);
-be used for ordinary suburban duties, including lugging golf clubs, dry cleaning, etc.?
-carry a bike rack on the rear trunk/bumper?
-offer the level of acceleration, cornering and handling that I've become used to?

Thank you, in advance, for your thoughts.

-- M

my NSX beat my 1983 911 sc by a long shot. hope that helps.

 

[Cairo94507]

Had a '97 C4S that was very nice looking - but otherwise a constant pain in the A**. I take exceptional care of my cars, bought it new and still had nothing but quality issues with the car. That does not even factor in the common sighting issues that that Porsche has - can't turn a corner or go down the street w/o seeing several of them where I live. Too common for me. I have loved the NSX since I first saw it and have loved our NSX since I bought it. If I am lucky I may see 2 a week, not counting mine of course.

Mine has not been in the shop except for normal maintenance - that is the way it should be. The porsche was on a regular visitor program apparently.
No comparison for me, the NSX is the one. Good luck with your decission and your retirement, may it be long and enjoyable.

 

[Yawwn]

Porsche 911s are wonderful cars. Like a lot of exotics, they can be cantankerous, but owners seem to love them more because of their quirks.
I owned a C4 for a few years, and it was a pleasure to drive. I thought that having the 2+2 would make it somewhat practical, but it really did not prove useful. One thing that sticks in my mind is that I did enjoy seeing the spoiler rise and drop from the rear view mirror.
The tail was even more likely to get away from you than the NSX, and even with the AWD system, I felt that the car could be squirrely at times. The maintenance wasn't so bad if you did it yourself, but the 13 quarts of oil was something I could never get used to!
The NSX is a different car in the way it drives and the way it makes you feel as an owner. It's really hard to compare the two once you've owned either, since it's like having two kids with totally different personalities. I don't think you could go wrong with either car. However, I do echo the sentiments of the others that the rarity of the NSX does make it stand shoulders above cars you see more often.

In terms of your questions, I think the NSX can be used as a daily driver. I know of plenty of people who do.
There is a thread of someone who went to a Sam's Club (or a Costco) who loaded up the NSX with a ton of items, so I think that if you are resourceful, you will be able to run your day-to-day chores.
Maintenance really is easy on your wallet for a sports car.
The perception of Hummers when driving an NSX is unnerving at first, but don't let that fool you about the safety of these cars. I don't see it as being any less dangerous because of the sportiness and size of the car.
I thought about carrying my bike on the NSX when I first bought it like seven years ago, but finally dismissed it the past few years, since I realized I couldn't mountain bike up my street without getting winded (sucks getting old)
You'll probably be pleasantly surprised how much better you may like driving the NSX in nice switchbacks compared to a Porsche.

Take Care.

[edited to answer mikey's questions]

 

[Tom239]

A homemade bike rack can be seen in this thread.

As long as you mention Hummers... Earlier this year, at the height
of the spring butterfly season in southern California, I arrived in Los Angeles
after a 200 mile drive with the front of my NSX adorned with tons of them.
I parked, got out of the car, and a guy driving by in a (spotless) Hummer
said "you should wash that thing". I would've liked to have chatted with
him and found out if his Hummer had even seen as many off-road miles
as my NSX has.

 

[Dave in Clarkston]

I would think the NSX would be fine for daily driving as long as your in an area without snow. Others might say different but I can't imagine using the car in the winter. Having also owned two Boxsters I can echo what another board member said about the not having to pass yourself every block.

The one nice thing I can say about the NSX is that the floor of my garage is dry under the engine. That could not have been said about my Boxsters. While I never suffered from RMS issue I did have a number of oil leaks with the first showing up with only 300 miles on one car. Oil changes are much less expensive with the NSX and from what I have seen on this forum there are a number of high mile cars that have seemed to hold up quite well. I would suspect that the cost of ownership will be lower for the NSX.

 

[TigerNSX]

I have had two M3s, and my father-in-law has a 996 C4.

-be my only car? Not really
-be driven daily, comfortably, on suburban streets/highways? Yes, except for when it snows
-make me feel reasonably safe among the Hummers in the neighborhood and the 18 wheelers on the interstate? Yes, unless they take their eyes off of the road to check your car out in rainy weather? Yes, as long as tires are not bold
-if maintained well, be as reliable and relatively low-cost to maintain as my 80's vintage Prelude and Accord (loved those cars!); Yes, my two NSXs have been the most reliable cars I have ever owned. Maintenance costs are on-par with other sports cars I have owned.
-be used for ordinary suburban duties, including lugging golf clubs, dry cleaning, etc.? Feasible, but woudl be uncomfortable
-carry a bike rack on the rear trunk/bumper? Hell, no, not on the trunk or bumper...
-offer the level of acceleration, cornering and handling that I've become used to? Yes!

 

[mikey175]

Thanks all for the useful and often funny responses to my questions. Sounds like I need to start thinking more seriously about an NSX. Hmmm, then for mods...

More later. Thank you again!

-- M

 

[CerberusM5]

Thanks all for the useful and often funny responses to my questions. Sounds like I need to start thinking more seriously about an NSX. Hmmm, then for mods...

More later. Thank you again!

-- M

Mikey,

As a daily driver and your only car; I would opt for your 996 Targa versus an early NSX-T. The 996 is more versatile, the 3.6 has tons more torque, superior brakes and handles better, especially with the M030 option.

My biggest complaint about the NSX-T is the excessive understeer, modest power and brakes. On the flipside the NSX, is comfortable, reliable and inexpensive to maintain in comparison to the P-Car. Unbless you are looking to save a little money, I think you will be disapointed with an early NSX-T compared to your 996. Just my two cents.

 

[jdc1687]

Mikey, I recently purchased my first NSX, and I still have my E36 M3 for daily driving and winters (I live in New England after all).

Mikey,

As a daily driver and your only car; I would opt for your 996 Targa versus an early NSX-T. The 996 is more versatile, the 3.6 has tons more torque, superior brakes and handles better, especially with the M030 option.

My biggest complaint about the NSX-T is the excessive understeer, modest power and brakes. On the flipside the NSX, is comfortable, reliable and inexpensive to maintain in comparison to the P-Car. Unbless you are looking to save a little money, I think you will be disapointed with an early NSX-T compared to your 996. Just my two cents.

Cerberus; I got my NSX; if you recall our conversations from a month ago

A link to pics:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53033

The 996 is faster. The 996 stops better. The 996 corners better. Yet, I passed a 996 on the highway on my way to work this morning; I smiled and thought "Thank god I didn't get the Porsche". There is no comparison between a 996/993 and an NSX; the Porsche may as well not be there for all I care. The 911s are standard production vehicles. YES, they are fast, and comparing stock 996s to stock NSXs the NSX will get decimated. (A stock C2 993 is probably comparible to the NSX, however.) However, the NSX is very rare, and extremely cool. I hesistate to call it an "exotic", but it is wickedly cool compared to a Porsche. Of course, this is MY opinion, and I'm sure others disagree.

Also, if you are looking to impress people. If someone asks what kind of car you have, don't expect any "wows" when you say Acura NSX.

-be my only car? Yes, but will require storage compromises.
-be driven daily, comfortably, on suburban streets/highways?Not a problem at all.
-make me feel reasonably safe among the Hummers in the neighborhood and the 18 wheelers on the interstate? in rainy weather? Rain depends on the tires.. If you have good tires rain is not an issue. With other cars on the road... I don't feel any more endangered than in any other car, but that is me.
-if maintained well, be as reliable and relatively low-cost to maintain as my 80's vintage Prelude and Accord (loved those cars!); Can't say, only had my car 3 weeks.
-be used for ordinary suburban duties, including lugging golf clubs, dry cleaning, etc.? Yes, but requires planning/stuffing
-carry a bike rack on the rear trunk/bumper?Anything can be done, if clever enough.
-offer the level of acceleration, cornering and handling that I've become used to?Probably, but maybe not. The power delivery is not as shocking as in the M3, and I think this is due to the gearing of the car. I have never driven a 911, but I imagine the low end torque to be much larger. I have driven my buddies ferrari F355 quite a bit, and the power delivery is rather similar to my 91 NSX. In both cars, if you are in the wrong gear the car basically just sits there when you hit the gas. If you are at 5,000 rpm or more, the car will go pretty damn fast.. For me, I think the NSX is plenty fast, and certainly much faster than a stock E36 M3, but, as I said, the power is not breathtaking. Rather it just continually propels you forward and you are going fast. It is odd. For example, if you are just coasting, and mash the gas, even in the right gear, the car doesn't jerk you into your seat, not nearly as much as my stock E36 M3. However, you'll notice that the speedo needle climbs much faster.. In my comparison between the NSX and the F355, the F355 is no doubt faster, but the NSX is honestly not far behind. In the turns I can keep up with my buddy in his F355, although I do have more seat time than he does(autocross). The stock brakes in the NSX are not very impressive, and I literally have new performance pads in my trunk, to install on sunday. Try one out, that is my best advice..

-Jeremy

 

[jdc1687]

Mikey,

As a daily driver and your only car; I would opt for your 996 Targa versus an early NSX-T. The 996 is more versatile, the 3.6 has tons more torque, superior brakes and handles better, especially with the M030 option.

My biggest complaint about the NSX-T is the excessive understeer, modest power and brakes. On the flipside the NSX, is comfortable, reliable and inexpensive to maintain in comparison to the P-Car. Unbless you are looking to save a little money, I think you will be disapointed with an early NSX-T compared to your 996. Just my two cents.

I forgot to talk about the understeer. Yes, my NSX does understeer rather annoyingly through turns.. Currently it has 205's in the front and 225s in the rear. My next set of tires are not going to be staggared this much. I think this will help the understeer quite a bit.

-Jeremy

 

[CerberusM5]

I forgot to talk about the understeer. Yes, my NSX does understeer rather annoyingly through turns.. Currently it has 205's in the front and 225s in the rear. My next set of tires are not going to be staggared this much. I think this will help the understeer quite a bit.

-Jeremy

Congrats on your new NSX. I am glad you are very happy with it and that it was the right choice for you.

I have a feeling my NSX-T's understeer more than than the fixed roof coupes. Honda dialed in way too much understeer into the late model cars in my opinion. In fact, my 4000 pound BMW family sedan corners much better than my NSX in tight/slow speed corners. Now that was a surprise.

I know understeer is much safer for novices, especially in a mid-engine, rear weight biased car, but it's extremely frustrating in a car that handling ability is suppose to be its forte.

 

[Gansan]

Congrats on your new NSX. I am glad you are very happy with it and that it was the right choice for you.

I have a feeling my NSX-T's understeer more than than the fixed roof coupes. Honda dialed in way too much understeer into the late model cars in my opinion. In fact, my 4000 pound BMW family sedan corners much better than my NSX in tight/slow speed corners. Now that was a surprise.

I know understeer is much safer for novices, especially in a mid-engine, rear weight biased car, but it's extremely frustrating in a car that handling ability is suppose to be its forte.

Ceberus, could you provide the tire sizes you are using on your car? From your avatar picture, it appears you have aftermarket wheels, and it may provide some insight into your understeer complaints.

I have driven two NSXes at the track: A 94 Coupe with sway bars and stock tire sizes, and a 97 NSX-T with aftermarket wheels (I think they were 17/18, and too wide in the rear).

The 94 Coupe was quite a good handling car, and there was no significant understeer in my experience, even on tight hairpin turns such as those found at Buttonwillow Raceway. In fact, just a little bit of trail braking into a tight hair pin, and I was immediately feeding in opposite lock and back on the gas to keep the tail in check. I am sure the sway bars had a hand in this. The weak point of the car was actually the brakes, which faded completely after about 6 hard laps. Better pads would have helped.

The 97 NSX-T was quite different. It seemed that the sizing of the aftermarket wheels and tires gave it too much grip in back, keeping the rear firmly planted. Although it was possible to get the rear sliding in high speed sweepers, it never came close to actual oversteer. The suspension was also noticably softer than the older coupe that I drove, which matches the specs (NSX-T is the softest version.)

My Zanardi I have not taken to the track yet, although the equivalent Type S in Best Motoring (the older version from 1997) was criticized for having too much high speed oversteer, to the point that it slowed the car down because you could not get on the gas on corner exit. It will be interesting to see what the Zanardi is like on track.

 

[CerberusM5]

Ceberus, could you provide the tire sizes you are using on your car? From your avatar picture, it appears you have aftermarket wheels, and it may provide some insight into your understeer complaints.

I have driven two NSXes at the track: A 94 Coupe with sway bars and stock tire sizes, and a 97 NSX-T with aftermarket wheels (I think they were 17/18, and too wide in the rear).

The 94 Coupe was quite a good handling car, and there was no significant understeer in my experience, even on tight hairpin turns such as those found at Buttonwillow Raceway. In fact, just a little bit of trail braking into a tight hair pin, and I was immediately feeding in opposite lock and back on the gas to keep the tail in check. I am sure the sway bars had a hand in this. The weak point of the car was actually the brakes, which faded completely after about 6 hard laps. Better pads would have helped.

The 97 NSX-T was quite different. It seemed that the sizing of the aftermarket wheels and tires gave it too much grip in back, keeping the rear firmly planted. Although it was possible to get the rear sliding in high speed sweepers, it never came close to actual oversteer. The suspension was also noticably softer than the older coupe that I drove, which matches the specs (NSX-T is the softest version.)

My Zanardi I have not taken to the track yet, although the equivalent Type S in Best Motoring (the older version from 1997) was criticized for having too much high speed oversteer, to the point that it slowed the car down because you could not get on the gas on corner exit. It will be interesting to see what the Zanardi is like on track.

Gansan,

Thanks for your insight between the 94 and 97 you experienced on the track. I have a 2004 with 225s on the front and 285s on the rear. The only suspension change I made was Comptech sport springs. I know that 60mm is probably more than the ideal ratio between the front and rear contact patches for the NSX, but the front end just gives up too early and its not related to the tires in my opinion. I think it's Honda's suspension tuning or lack thereof that is causing this frustrating understeer.

Even when the car was stock with the factory wheels and tires (215F/255R) it still understeered like a pig.

The car just pushes wide and scrubs off speed in tight corners. Using the throttle helps bring the car back in line somewhat, but not enough. This is the biggest complaint I have with my NSX and has tainted my experience with the car. :frown:

 

[jdc1687]

Gansan,

Thanks for your insight between the 94 and 97 you experienced on the track. I have a 2004 with 225s on the front and 285s on the rear. The only suspension change I made was Comptech sport springs. I know that 60mm is probably more than the ideal ratio between the front and rear contact patches for the NSX, but the front end just gives up too early and its not related to the tires in my opinion. I think it's Honda's suspension tuning or lack thereof that is causing this frustrating understeer.

Even when the car was stock with the factory wheels and tires (215F/255R) it still understeered like a pig.

The car just pushes wide and scrubs off speed in tight corners. Using the throttle helps bring the car back in line somewhat, but not enough. This is the biggest complaint I have with my NSX and has tainted my experience with the car. :frown:

(we are not trying to hijack the thread)

Cerb.... I wish you weren't in Vegas, we could go for a ride to compare cars. Have you had an alignment recently? I wonder what your camber numbers up front are.. Also, have you inspected the sway bars, and their mount points?

My car certainly understeers, and more so than I would like. However, I would never call it a "pig"... In order to induce understeer I have to be pushing the car very hard..

Hope you can resolve it..
Jeremy

 

[Gansan]

Gansan,

Thanks for your insight between the 94 and 97 you experienced on the track. I have a 2004 with 225s on the front and 285s on the rear. The only suspension change I made was Comptech sport springs. I know that 60mm is probably more than the ideal ratio between the front and rear contact patches for the NSX, but the front end just gives up too early and its not related to the tires in my opinion. I think it's Honda's suspension tuning or lack thereof that is causing this frustrating understeer.

Even when the car was stock with the factory wheels and tires (215F/255R) it still understeered like a pig.

The car just pushes wide and scrubs off speed in tight corners. Using the throttle helps bring the car back in line somewhat, but not enough. This is the biggest complaint I have with my NSX and has tainted my experience with the car. :frown:

Although I cannot give a definitive opinion because I have not inspected your car in person nor driven it, here are the things that are influencing the handling on your car, based on your description:

1. You increased the front tire width by 10mm and the rear tire width by 30mm, increasing rear grip significantly more than the front. This is on top of the 10mm increase in rear tire width that Honda added in 2002, specifically to increase rear grip.

2. The additional width of the rear wheels (depending on the offset) increases rear track by a significant amount. This reduces weight transfer during cornering, increasing grip at the rear.

3. The Comptech Sport Springs are in no way designed for increasing oversteer. They are street springs that lower the car, that's it.

There is absolutely no way that any of the changes you listed would have improved your understeer situation. In fact they most likely made it worse. The tire situation alone is a tremendous change to the handling balance, no doubt about it. This kind of additional rear tire grip would be great for handling additional power (such as a supercharger), but not unless your power warrants it. Even with the justification of additional power, you would still end up increasing low speed understeer.

Why not make some changes that will help instead?

1. Decrease rear wheel width to match what you have in front. For experimentation, consider going back to the stock wheel sizes while you sort out the suspension.

2. Increase your rear sway bar diameter. Get the Zanardi/Type S rear sway bar. Do NOT upgrade the front bar. In fact, check the front one and return it to stock if it has been upgraded unbekownst to you (if you bought the car used).

3. Increase rear spring rate. This is similar to increasing the rear sway bar diameter, but is trickier. You would probably need to upgrade both the front and rear to get the balance right.

4. Increase rear ride height or lower front ride height. Speaking from personal experience, even a 3mm increase in rear ride height is noticable in decreasing understeer. This works by increasing weight transfer in the rear, decreasing grip. Unfortunately, this kind of fine tuning is only available if you have adjustable ride height suspension (i.e. "coilovers").

I hope this gives you ideas, or at least help you evaluate the current state of your car and understand why it is behaving the way it does.

Oh, and I apologize for hijacking this thread! :biggrin:

 

[frisbee54]

Hi I own a 1996 Porsche twin turbo last of the air cooled and in my opinion the fat 993 TT body style is the best looking 911 they ever made my car is fairly moddified with bigger K24 zero clearenced ceramic coated turbos with euro RS cams and modded ECU and all balanced and blue printed with rods machined to accept ARP rod bolts its putting out about 575 HP but you can drive it around town and it seems stock until you step on the gas then it gets really fun. I also put Bilstein PSS9 9way adj. shocks and springs and had it corner balanced and aligned one of the things I like best about the Porsche over our NSX's we've had 3 of them 2 91's and a 98 and we still have the 91 while both cars are very easy to drive and live with the Porsche is alot easier to get in and out of, the down side is you need to let it idle for 2 min. after driving it to let the turbos cool down and people think I'm crazy when I run into the convience store and leave the car sitting out there running but so far i've been lucky and it's always been there when i return but then I figure thats what insurance is for 2 totally different cars but I love them both the Porsche is faster and stops and handles better the AWD helps keep the tail in line but the NSX for being such an old car still impresses me with its looks and technology. Doug