Another misfire thread!!!

[quasi]

Hi everyone! Never really post on here, actually this is my 2nd post, 1st was a thanks to Redbird for the negative battery cable. To the point now. I've got a 98 6 speed with about 79000 miles which I purchased last july and every once in a while (more so than none) I get a CEL and TCS. After I clear the codes, they don't reoccur till the next day, or sometimes not for days. I was getting a 1201, 1204, 0300, and a 1399. Sometimes the cylinder codes would not pop up at all, but just a 1399, random misfire. I have been through all the threads pertaining this nasty gremlin and today I had some time to do some troubleshooting. I examined the misfire detection module as well as the connectors, all seemed ok. I pulled all the coil packs one by one and it was all good. I decided to take it one step further, now i'm not sure, but I tried to find the firing order on here (i've seen it once before) and pulled the coilpack, left rear drivers side and it was drenched in oil. Not a miniute amount but soaked. So I then removed the sparkplug and the same. The socket was full of oil when I removed it and when I removed the plug from the socket, it left a trial of drips all the way to the paper towels where I ran to clean up this mess. I found one thread on this mentioning the spark plug seals. So I might give this a shot. When I further examined the coilpack, the rubber towards the top was torn open on two sides. My speculation is maybe the pressure from the oil may have caused this? Is this oil buildup common? Luckily, I had another coilpack handy so I swapped it, started it, and tons of blue smoke clouded up my garage, from the oil in that cylinder bank. I took it for a quick spin, and no more blue smoke. So my question is, could this be causing my misfire issue? When coming to a stop while depressing the clutch, sometimes it likes to drop the rpm's, not to the point where it stalls, but just about. I have cleaned the throttle body a bit as well. I'll let the car cool down and check that cylinder for oil again tomorrow. Just to clarify, what is the firing order again? If im staring FWD from the trunk, is the driver's side by the trunk cylinder 1? If that's the case, would it be


FRONT
4-5-6
1-2-3
REAR

Thanks again for any input. I'm trying to get this sorted out, tried on my own, but when I saw the oil, I almost had a stroke. Have a great night!:smile:

 

[JD Cross]

If you look on page 6-54 of the shop manual you will see the cylinders labelled.
If you don't have a shop manual download a free one from the Wiki.
You'll need it down the road for other things as they come up.

 

[elijahcole92]

Just going of quick memory of when I did my timing belt and leak down test. Standing behind the trunk looking forward the engine bay.

Front
654
321
Rear

 

[Old Guy]

I pulled all the coil packs one by one and it was all good. I decided to take it one step further, now i'm not sure, but I tried to find the firing order on here (i've seen it once before) and pulled the coilpack, left rear drivers side and it was drenched in oil.

. I found one thread on this mentioning the spark plug seals. So I might give this a shot. When I further examined the coilpack, the rubber towards the top was torn open on two sides. My speculation is maybe the pressure from the oil may have caused this?!:smile:

I am a bit confused. You said that you pulled all the coil packs one by one and it was all good; but, then you said that the one coil is drenched in oil. That seems to be a bit of a contradiction!

Clean oil is an electrical insulator and as such would not be directly responsible for flash overs leading to misfire. However, mix in some contaminants with the oil and the insulating properties go out the window. Whether or not it is the cause of the misfire, a coil pack with damaged rubber seals on it needs to be replaced. If there have been any internal flash overs in the long nose of the coil, then it also needs to be replaced. If the insulator of the spark plug is contaminated, also plan for its replacement.

Perhaps the bigger issue you should address is why is there oil in the spark plug well. The only spark plug seals that I am aware of are the rubber seals on the coil covers. The purpose of coil covers and their rubber seals is to stop moisture and dirt from dropping on to the coils themselves and then working its way down into the spark plug wells. You should not be accumulating significant quantities of oil in the spark plug well. Start looking for the source of that leaking oil as it may ultimately be a bigger issue than some ignition misfires. There definitely should not be oil under pressure in that area.

 

[quasi]

Sorry about the confusion. When I meant when I pulled the coil packs one by one, I meant when the car was started, to hear if the engine hesitated and it did with every pull, so the packs were functioning. After then I disconnected each pack and pulled them completely out of each cylinder well and thats when I found the oil build up. It was only on the one cylinder. I found this thread and it maybe the valve cover gasket or the seals around the spark plugs.

http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/138674-Help!-oil-in-coil-pack

I just pulled the coil pack again about 10 min. ago after that brief sprinted drive yeaterday and there was a trace of oil on the new pack. So far from what I have read, it's a PITA to replace the rear valve cover gasket, so I may take it in to have it changed, and I guess that's where I stand so far. After this issue is resolved, then the misfire issue will be looked at. Thanks for everyones input so far.

 

[elijahcole92]

I don't know how mechanically inclined you are but the rear valve cover gasket is in no way a pitb. It's not as easy as say a b series Honda but it's very simple.

 

[Lude_2_NSX]

The rear vc gasket is not tough at all. If you've done any other vc gaskets, this one is very comparable. It takes a little finagling in and out, but all in all only an hour job...

 

[99targa]

So...my CEL and TCS went on as well this weekend. The code pulled was 1201 (cylinder 1). I had the code cleared and upon driving, going from first to second and giving it "some" throttle, I heard a pop from the exhaust. Not loud, but noticeable. I checked the coil packs, specifically 1 and 2 and noticed the following:

#1 - upon pulling the coil out (while engine running), idle changed
#2 - upon pulling the coil out, idle did not change (but changed after a few second)

I changed coil #1 and put it in position #2 and vice versus for #2 to #1 .

#1 - upon pulling the coil out (while engine running), idle changed
#2 - upon pulling the coil out, idle changed

Was this the correct procedure? Maybe not?

 

[quasi]

The procedure was correct. What I found when doing this was if you didnt pull it out enough, idle would not change. So when I pulled the coil out further, that's when the idle changed for me.

 

[99targa]

Thanks quasi! I did notice that the #1 coil is very loose (it was easier to remove than #2 ). I was reading a thread where Larry B stated that the coil should NOT be easy to be removed. So...I will replace the #1 coil and if that doesn't work, then I'll look at the plugs.

 

[99targa]

Update...after changing coil pack #1 , all is good! No misfire going into second. The lesson learnt...even though checking the coil pack to see if idle changes does not necessarily means it's "good." From reading a post by Larry B, also check for looseness/tightness. Thanks all!

 

[quasi]

So........ Major update! I've owned this car for little over a year now, 15 months to be exact, and finally NOW, it runs 100%. No more check engine light or TCS. NOTHING! Going through the service records which I have been doing to figure out the history and when it when wrong, I figured it out, well the mechanic I took it to figured it out. In 2008, the timing belt as well as a valve adjustment and other maintenance items at 62xxx miles were performed (car now has 82xxx miles) and when I purchased it, it had 76432 miles on it. The previous owner had reported a check engine and TCS multiple times and their conclusion was use Shell gas and you'll be ok. So he continued to do that but something seemed fishy to me. Was I to believe that this car runs only on V-Power? I call that crap. Looking more into the service record records, he bought the car multiple times to the dealer for the CEL and TCS only to come back to the same conclusion. So in Aug. of this year, I took the car on a road trip from Calgary to Winnipeg which is approx. 1350 km's (845 Miles) and it ran great. I thought I was in the clear. No CEL or TCS. Maybe the road trip cleared this demon? Nope. Started the car the next day and my two favorite lights illuminated right before me 10 min. after the car was running. Awesome. I missed them. The car was due for an oil change so I booked it at Crown Acura in Winnipeg, and I asked to speak to the mechanic, told him about the intermittent CEL and TCS. This is where everything changes. He told me to leave the car with him, which was perfect cause I was going to be in Toronto for a week anyways. So I drove to his place, and left the car with him. Fast forward a week, I called him upon my return, and he said problem fixed. So....... this car has had this issue since 2008 until now. If you guys have followed this confusing story so far, the problem was...... incorrect valve adjustment, intake valves. Ta Da! That's been the whole problem since 2008! Shell gas is not the cure. I am so relieved. You guys would not believe the roller coaster I've been on. I'll post in another thread about my positive experience with John the mechanic, who has been working on these cars since 1991 and why i'm so jealous of you guys in Wpg. to have such a knowledgeable tech to live in your city. So there you have it! This is another misfire thread with a positive ending. The misdiagnosis this car has been through since I bought it would make your guys heads spin and not trust anyone. Now I can finally post as a new owner cause before all this, I had no desire to do so as I was a sucker who purchased a car based on trust cause a guy had all the service records and seemed nice. A note to all future owners: get a PPI done by a mechanic who knows these cars, there is a lot to go over and someone who has worked on these cars, knows what to look for. John mentioned valve adjustment before even having looked over it. Finally, my dream car runs the way it should. :biggrin:

 

[GraemeD]

That is great when a long time issue gets resolved. It's a good feeling.
Was it discovered with a compression test? Or did he just dive into the valve adjustment on experience?

 

[quasi]

Based on what the symptoms that I was having, and explained it to him, he pretty much just dove into it, like he knew the problem and that was the issue. This guy knows his stuff. Still to this day, car drives fine, no more CEL, and doesn't run like a motorboat. It smelled so rich before, now perfect. Now happy.