BrakeExpert. Im sure you know your specs and numbers. I can not tell you how big a brembo rotor is but give me 5 minutes, i'll google it. Does it make me an brembo expert? In your post, i see a lot info about specs and sizes but that is absent is the behind the scene hydrolic theroy , brake balance, car balance and setup. Im confident in your bracket making abilities but unlike the civic crowd... we here think more in depth about the issues and thus STUNTMAN's posts. A man can change tires all his life but not know a thing about tire compound, tread design, construction, etc. The NSX is has always and will always be about balance of style, power, handling all working as one. Being a BRAKEEXPECT should be about the COMPLETE braking system and not just the rotor or caliper or brakets.
Im pointing out a couple of things that has not been discussed up to now which should be more important than the size and look of a caliper/rotor.
with bigger calipers, I would think that there needs to be more fluid displacement to fill all the pistons. since RL calipers are designed for RL brake masters cylinders (RLMC)..... we would have to compare the master cylinder brake fluid displacement bore and stroke first to see if we can have the same effect on the RL caliper pistons with the NSX brake master. Is the RL MC two step design with duel bore? or single stage like the NSX? Obiviously we need to know this.
is the stock brake master up to the task?
im in Stunts boat. this guy has more track time then all the nsx member put together and im sure he has seen every kind of brake fade.
Not to take sides, but experience speaks.
Here is the problem I see daily with big brake kits and SUPER DUPER whatever retro fits.
The brake simply OVER POWERS the tires coefficient to the ground.
the best braking comes in NOT when the ABS is kicking in but when the tire is scrubbing the ground at about 15% slippage.
What I see on lots of customer cars is huge brakes. When you stop, the calipers in the front lock up and the abs kicks in and the rear breaks do not do much at all. The car gets all squrmy
Since the stock nsx comes with front and rear proportion valves and that value is set.... lets so 70% front and 30% rear ( I dont know the exact numbers) so when your in a STOCK nsx brake configuration, the calipers in the front and in the rear get a proper amount of force so that the front brake works and so does the rear. So the front applies 70 Units of force and the back applies 30 Units of force for a total of 100% force (under normal braking)and the car is balance is not upset drasticly since both the front and rear can sqat down when braking.
NOW change this formula. We got a HUGE caliper that has 2x the surface area in the front as before.... so now with out adjusting the proportion valve, we still have that 70/30 split.
Now the front brakes is Appling 70unitsX2 = 140Units of stopping power and the rear is applying 30 units.
Well... WOW what's wrong with that?!?!? we got OVER 170 UNITS of stopping power! that's AWESOME!...... wrong.
Bigger is not better.:biggrin:
Ok lets take in consideration that the front tires LOCK UP at 69 units of braking force.
When we put the brakes on, the total force we applied to the front to reach that 69 units (69/140 = 49%) is 49% of the over all braking force capable to the front which = the original 70 units since the back 30 units stay the same.
So now look at the back brakes. Since the proprtional valve is consistant and only the front brake pad coeffecient changes, then 49% of 30 units over braking power can be applied to the rear brakes which is only 14.5 units of braking force in the back..... so in effect we lost 15.5 units of braking force in the back which
is a loss of over 55% braking force in the rear!!....
if the tires in the back brake less and then the rear of the car is going to lift up more under hard braking and get the car out of shape.
INcreased braking distance and safer braking? i dont think so. BUT you can say.. LOOOK i got some AweSOmE Big MONSTER CALIPERS when your sitting at the side of the road/track after spinning out. Its all about balance. Bigger calipers on the front? you need more agressive pads on the back to even out the car, or change the ratio at which F vs R braking power is equalized. But when you eqalize the F to R braking power..... your effectively still going back to the 70/30 ratio EXCEPT, you have bigger rotor up front which dissapates more heat thus less brake fade.
The problem also lies in that with bigger brakes, your tires lock up consistantly, when the ABS kicks in, your braking distance
INCREASES when compared to 10-15% slippage which can be maintained by a skilled driver such as Stunt ( Stunt you better be able to do this :tongue: ). ABS helps the everyday driver since ABS is better than lock up.
Anyways, I get lots of complaints from customers, who's big brake kits always lock up when they get on the brakes.
Personally I rather all 4 corners of my NSX is balance and working together, then just the Front 2 doing all the work which throws off the balance of the car. Im not Honda, Im not Zanardi, im not Best Motoring (BMI hammers on the nsx at the track, never talked about brake fade). If they all can thought the calipers where good enough for the track, ill stick with their opinions.
My illustration is kind of confusing.... anyways, doing best I can with what's in my mind.:smile:
For most every day users and limited track use. A good set of hawk + pads and regular brake fluid flush will be more than good enough.
BIGGER CALIPERS does not = better braking distance but does help with brake fade.. but which one of us drives their car to the point of brake fade???
personally, I drive my car in the canyons hard. I dont abuse it, i keep it in tip top shape and i drive it. 30-40 mile stretches and no issues. Never felt like I needed more braking power or bigger calipers.
I like the feeling of jamming on the brakes and not having ABS kick in every time.
The braking distance is limited by the tires ability to maintain contact with the ground not by the size of your calipers. and our stock calipers can absolutely over power the tires to the ground coefficient when you get in it. Anymore increase in that braking coefficient is a waste unless you have heavy track use and need the bigger rotors to limit brake fade.
Warmest of regards to everyone
Rob:smile:
) can put together a kit a 4-corner kit for... $2500 or so, have it be at least as effective as stock, and 3-5 lbs lighter each corner (from the first post, a the RL caliper + bigger rotor = 28 lbs vs stock 33 lbs for a 91), you have a product that will sell. Sure, if it's 4K, no reason to go with it but see what it takes to make it affordable while profitable.
