Acura RL caliper retrofit

You may not be meaning to, but your still patronizing me. I have fitted this to Civics, Legends, etc, and almost all Hondas can accept this setup, NSX included. Yes, this setup WILL improve your braking, however I did not mention by how much. The fact is that the pad is bigger, the caliper is lighter, the rotor is bigger and thus will hold more heat. On a specific application, it may not be as dramatic as stock as you'd expect though. I have driven NSX brakes and RL brakes and though the RL caliper is aluminum, they are surprisingly rigid, so decreased braking due to excess caliper flex is not going to be a night and day difference. I'm telling you this is a step up, just not by how much yet as I don't have my numbers or thermo books. Anyone who has gone from the 91 to 97 front brakes will attest to this being an upgrade, so if going from a 11.1" to 11.8" rotor is a noticable jump, surely you must agree that going to a 12.6" setup with an even bigger pad is still going to be noticable.

My bad on the pictures. This caliper bolts to the bracket via two big ass 4" bolts. The bracket has two other bolt holes that bolt to the regular 5.5" Honda knuckle tabs but bolts on the other side and uses S2000 caliper mounting bolts which I still reccomend be torqued to 80 lb-ft. (The Civic setup though has the bolts grinded a bit at each end since they don't fit; I may be using Integra caliper bolts because they are a bit shorter). I'll get you a backside picture when I get home. Sorry for all of this arguementiveness (yeah its a real word).
 
BrakeExpert said:
You may not be meaning to, but your still patronizing me. I have fitted this to Civics, Legends, etc, and almost all Hondas can accept this setup, NSX included. Yes, this setup WILL improve your braking, however I did not mention by how much. The fact is that the pad is bigger, the caliper is lighter, the rotor is bigger and thus will hold more heat. On a specific application, it may not be as dramatic as stock as you'd expect though. I have driven NSX brakes and RL brakes and though the RL caliper is aluminum, they are surprisingly rigid, so decreased braking due to excess caliper flex is not going to be a night and day difference. I'm telling you this is a step up, just not by how much yet as I don't have my numbers or thermo books. Anyone who has gone from the 91 to 97 front brakes will attest to this being an upgrade, so if going from a 11.1" to 11.8" rotor is a noticable jump, surely you must agree that going to a 12.6" setup with an even bigger pad is still going to be noticable.

My bad on the pictures. This caliper bolts to the bracket via two big ass 4" bolts. The bracket has two other bolt holes that bolt to the regular 5.5" Honda knuckle tabs but bolts on the other side and uses S2000 caliper mounting bolts which I still reccomend be torqued to 80 lb-ft. (The Civic setup though has the bolts grinded a bit at each end since they don't fit; I may be using Integra caliper bolts because they are a bit shorter). I'll get you a backside picture when I get home. Sorry for all of this arguementiveness (yeah its a real word).
Click to expand...
And how else could have we have gotten this information, this in-depth :wink:

...your welcome.
 
Stuntman...think about this:

Why shouldn't the RL (legend) calipers be able to perform good on the NSX, if Honda developed them to stop a heavier car (RL) that is able to achieve very high speeds like the NSX??

after all, a cars brake system is all about to stop a very heavy object. In a performance car, a supercar in the NSX case, to stop it quicker and with more reliability (don't know if this is the right term).

i think the only issue is to work out a good caliper mounting bracket, and that caliper/rotor performance, in this case, is a NON issue :wink: :wink:

and i'm far from being a brake expert... i just have a brain to process info as it comes to me :wink: :wink: :wink: :wink:
 
The "bigger is better" mentality does not work for high performance brakes. If that were the case, then the best brake upgrade would be simply the biggest caliper/rotor combination you can fit inside your rim. Anyone who understands upgrading brakes knows this is not correct.

While the RL caliper may be bigger, just as reliable and lighter than the NSX's doesn't mean it makes a better, especially for track use. And someone saying "trust me, it'll be better" isn't very convincing, especially when that person can't quantify how much better in any meaningful way.

J
 
bigger doesn't means better, i never said that... what i say is that if Honda uses them to stop more weight, why shouldn't they work for NSX ???
 
BrakeExpert said:
Well I can guarantee you they will work better than stock. And if your going for looks in that route, you'll need some stickers, etching, or paint cause the RL overseas is a "Legend" everywhere else, and those calipers don't say anything. In fact, the ACURA letters I think are actaully letters stuck on there, you can tell they weren't cast into the aluminum, as the surface is smooth and clear with aluminum lines under it or something.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.... most likely the word Acura is cast into the caliper, then a machining process exposes clean, shiny aluminum to make the letters stand out. I doubt if Honda uses stick-on letters.
 
UnhuZ said:
bigger doesn't means better, i never said that... what i say is that if Honda uses them to stop more weight, why shouldn't they work for NSX ???
Click to expand...

I never said that you said that... which is why I didn't quote you as I did here. There are repeated mentions in this thread (not from you) about how the RL setup is bigger in this way or that with the implication being that bigger must be better. I was trying to say that bigger does not necessarily mean better, otherwise every brake setup with the same exact specs would have the same exact results which is not the case.

Honda has a very different set of parameters in mind when designing parts for the NSX vs for their other models. There is more to brakes than just making the car stop. If that's all there is to it, there would be no sense in "designing" anything at all or in upgrading from stock... the stock setup stops the car, right? Things that Honda may have considered putting higher on the priority list for brakes for the NSX vs their other cars would likely include things that ultimately make the difference between a racing BBK and an OEM setup: overall feel and repeatability. It's not a question of it working or not, it's a question of it working better or not.

Again, I'm not saying this retrofit is not worthy of note; I agree with stuntman that there is a market out there for this. But I still contend that the OP has not shown that it would out-perform the OEM setup (with anything more than past experience on other models, statements stating that it's bigger... "so it must be better", and "trust me, I know it's better".

J
 
And all of this makes total sense. The only way we'll know is when he gets a chance to actually TEST his setup. I think it's a great idea and I'm really looking forward to the finished product.
 
I am interested to see progress on this up-grade (would like to participate in the GB if you came through). Too bad I don't live around your area or else I can lend you my NSX for test fit. But I am sure someone out there in your neck of the woods have an NSX for test fit.
Keep up the good work... There will always the nay-sayers wherever you go, so to shut those nay-sayers' mouth you just need to make it happen.
 
02#154 said:
The "bigger is better" mentality does not work
Click to expand...

Geez J why do you always get so upset when someone says bigger is better??:biggrin:


this thread needs to cool its heels, get back to work and come up with some testing so everyone can say great job ;) look forward to seeing results as I want a stock upgrade bbk myself (thinking about tl-s calipers but these may be better)
 
02#154 said:
the stock setup stops the car, right?
Click to expand...

I agree with you... but you could install a set of Honda Fit calipers on NSX and it would stop also...the issue here is if they are better than stock....

so...

if all calipers have in common the stop issue, let's continue to the next issue...which is which stop the NSX faster.

and once again i say, if RL calipers were designed to stop a heavier car that can achieve same speeds than the NSX, so, those calipers in a lighter car, would stop it faster...no??

and next we can talk about the caliper itself... the stock NSX caliper has 2 pots on one side .. and i believe these RL calipers have 4, 2 on each side... i believe 4 pots make more pressure on the pads than 2...

next we can talk about the pot sizes... if this was a non issue, Honda wouldn't have increased the NSX stock pot sizes over the years... but i think that if the 4 pot are individually smaller than the NSX's ones, even then, the fact they are 4, that somehow distributes the pressure evenly on the pads.

i believe that the RL calipers would improve the NSX braking experience... but as every opinion, it's not a fact by itself. :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:
 
While I read this forum on a daily basis, I don't comment readily. but this one has piqued my interest.

I own a '97 NSX, which I have tracked a couple of times, just for the heck of it. 12 months ago I replaced my "company car" with the new Legend [your RL], and ever since I started driving it, I have thought to myself, wow, what wonderful brakes.

Just a few weeks ago I finally got around to tracking my Legend, and I must say I was impressed. For a 1850kg saloon it sure tracked well. The brakes were quite outstanding for the first 5 laps, allowing me to brake very late and hard with no fade initially, until that fifth lap. With judicious use of the pedal, I was able to keep going, with only a minor drop in lap times for a further ten laps [I was having fun with a young, inexperienced man in his Euro Civic Type R]. The only down side from this track day was a very minor warping of the rotors. Which reminds me I must get them fixed.

But it did confirm my intial thoughts from the first day of ownership of the Legend, wonder how "difficult" it would be to fit them to my NSX.

I should add, that my hobby for the last eighteen years is motorsport at a club/national level here in Australia. My race car is a highly modified 1990 Civic, that runs AP Racing 4 spots on the front, mounted to the standard Honda uprights with a metal block, just like "BrakeExpert" has shown. The AP rotors are mounted on aluminium "hats" machined at a local race orientated engineering concern, and are on their fouth set of rotors.

Ultimately what I'm trying to say is, this upgrade struck me as a very sensible one, because the pedal feel of the Legend is VERY similar to the pedal feel of the NSX, and the weight difference of 500kgs is more than significant!

Let us remember that the NSX brakes were designed for much smaller tyres than most of us run, and today's tyres are most probably grippier than OEM tyres.

If I weren't spending so much time and money on the race car, I would have already done it. I have no guarantee it would be better, but I would bet on it.
 
First of all, I am not a brake expert.

The idea of replacing the standard and heavy iron/steel NSX calipers with some new aluminum Acura calipers which weigh (a lot) less is a very appealing one. The fact that is uses pads with a larger size is also very nice and I am pretty sure that it would be an improvement over the stock NSX brakes.
On the other hand, I am not sure that the NSX needs the bigger calipers. First of all, in the usual car, most of the weight of the car is over the front wheel. The NSX, being mid-engined, doesn't have the same weight distribution. If I remember correctly, I read somewhere that under heavy braking, the NSX dynamic distribution is about 50/50.

Some months ago, I fitted the Racing Brake upgrades with the 1997+ sizes rotors in the rear and the 12.6" rotors in the front. Both using the stock NSX calipers and Hawk HP+ pads. And I can tell you I can lock-up the wheels even at very high speeds. Last week, I had the opportunity to drive about 165 mph and even then, stepping on the brakes hauls down the NSX REALLY fast, going from 165 mph to 85-90 mph in a very short time.
After that, repeatedly slowing down the car from around 120 mph to 20 mph was just as easy with no sign of fade, just a bit of chirping from the tires reaching the limit of their adhesion. It has been undoubtedly one of the best upgrades I have done to my car so far and VERY confidence inspiring.

I am sure the RL caliper retrofit is a good idea and would like to see some additional results. But I do not really expect any great benefits apart from the weight savings (which might be significant, being unsprung weight).
I am also not sure the RL calipers will fit under the OEM wheels, they look a bit wider than the NSX calipers.
Still, I would like to see someone try this on their car and report their findings. It might be a much more cost effective way to do this instead of going to a Stoptech or similar BBK-setup.
 
02#154 said:
The "bigger is better" mentality does not work for high performance brakes. If that were the case, then the best brake upgrade would be simply the biggest caliper/rotor combination you can fit inside your rim. Anyone who understands upgrading brakes knows this is not correct.

While the RL caliper may be bigger, just as reliable and lighter than the NSX's doesn't mean it makes a better, especially for track use. And someone saying "trust me, it'll be better" isn't very convincing, especially when that person can't quantify how much better in any meaningful way.

J
Click to expand...
Wow, someone with a brain!




Thicker rotors with a larger diameter, for the most part, is better. Theirs a reason why over time, the 'standard' size wheels grow over time. Theirs also a reason why brakes grow in diameter over time. In the early 90's a 11.3" rotor on a production BMW M3 was huge. Now you see 14.3" on the newest generation. The stock NSX had 15" front wheels, then grew to 16" and larger rotors.

Evolution wants bigger brakes. But the main concern is proportioning, and development. The stock NSX proportioning valve was meant for a certain % of fluid moving a certain size piston(s) in the front and rear caliper. Changing the # of pistons, the size of the pistons, and the amount of fluid required to move/generate the same amount of force on the rotor (due to a different caliper) changes the bias of the car.

If you have stock rear calipers and rotors and put 14" 6-piston calipers up front, yes you will have more brake ability up front, but now you completely messed up the brake bias of the car.





The idea of the RL calipers is a good one, it's just going to require a lot of testing and development to figure out what is required to get the right balance. Too much front or rear brake bias will result in worse than stock performance.

So... get out there and develop it and figure out what it takes to make it stop better than stock - NOT just physically install/make the caliper brackets and sell them to customers who don't know any better -which is unethical.
 
Thinking this would be a good upgrade especially if it was substantially less than the 4 wheel Stoptechs or the Indy Brembos. Actually, even if was just a couple hundred less.

Braking balance, fitment, and price just need addressing. For sure, it's worthy of discussion.
 
stuntman said:
Wow, someone with a brain!
Click to expand...

hey, are you capable of expressing an opinion or trying to 'inform' the forum without being such a derogatory ass?

even if you are 100% right, there are a lot of people who just won't read your information due to the childish form that you put it in so you aren't doing anybody any good.

and this is even the 4th or 5th time you've done this in THIS thread alone!

If you want everybody to respect your opinion then FIRST respect everybody else's (unlike what you did with your very first post in this thread), THEN put your own respectfully.

If not, just let me know right now that you are incapable of doing any of this so I can just make you the 2nd person I've ever put on IGNORE here because I'm just tired of reading it at this point.
 
OneRedNSX said:
even if you are 100% right, there are a lot of people who just won't read your information due to the childish form that you put it in so you aren't doing anybody any good.
Click to expand...
I just bring up information/arguments/points to give people something to think about. Or argue a point that (I will say is quite often right). But I do admit defeat when proven wrong, but rarely do people do this because their statements and 'knowledge' is from reading magazines/listening to others who have read magazines, and do not understand the concept at hand (although many do).

I guess I just never cared how I put/proposed questions. I just put them out there, and when arguments were given against me, I just asked more questions to make people think about the theory/understanding of what they are talking about - to see if they actually know what they're talking about, or to give them things to think about and come to a better conclusion.

I guess I can try to propose these questions in a better way, heck I may be writing this post right now in a way that others will take offense to, so i'll have to work on that in the future.

OneRedNSX said:
If you want everybody to respect your opinion then FIRST respect everybody else's (unlike what you did with your very first post in this thread), THEN put your own respectfully.
Click to expand...
How was my first post dis-respectful? (seriously, I thought I put it in a nice way).

I was concerned about the member name causing controversy, also to be honest, I was skeptical as this was his first post (and I wanted to know) his background as well to help understand his experience/where he was coming from.
 
stuntman said:
I just bring up information/arguments/points to give people something to think about. Or argue a point that (I will say is quite often right). But I do admit defeat when proven wrong, but rarely do people do this because their statements and 'knowledge' is from reading magazines/listening to others who have read magazines, and do not understand the concept at hand (although many do).

I guess I just never cared how I put/proposed questions. I just put them out there, and when arguments were given against me, I just asked more questions to make people think about the theory/understanding of what they are talking about - to see if they actually know what they're talking about, or to give them things to think about and come to a better conclusion.

I guess I can try to propose these questions in a better way, heck I may be writing this post right now in a way that others will take offense to, so i'll have to work on that in the future.

How was my first post dis-respectful? (seriously, I thought I put it in a nice way).

I was concerned about the member name causing controversy, also to be honest, I was skeptical as this was his first post (and I wanted to know) his background as well to help understand his experience/where he was coming from.
Click to expand...

Contributing sounds much different than what you have tried to do. Maybe it's in your blood that you have this kind of attitude. I think you just need to shut the hell up all together, because w/o you NSXprime didn't seem to benefit any more than it has been. Don't try to be a "gentleman" BS because deep inside you just want to show that you know $hits and that you take a thrill out of putting people down. You sure on my S-list! Not that you care but what the heck. BTW, your cockiness might bite you on your behind on the track one of these days... and I shall wait and see!
 
What are the possibilities of retrofitting this to an S2000? In all honesty, I can get a Wilwood BBK for about the same cost, I think, but this does seem intriguing.
 

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