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For track times you must factor in driver skill.
ZO6 VS. NSX
- Thread starter HIKARI
- Start date
- Joined
- 14 April 2002
- Messages
- 2,273
The same driver with the same skill on the same track will lap faster times in a Z06 - but - as I think as been said many times - the same driver on the same day on the same track will tell you he would rather drive home and every day an NSX!
People still seem amazed when I tell them how much I appreciate and even admire other cars of higher value, faster, etc. - but still prefer my NSX by a long shot.
Bottom line is this, race fans - the Z06 will drive circles around even a well prepared NSX.
On a road course, it is mostly driver skill. A stock Z06 can not drive circles around a well prepared NSX like the one Wei-Shin has. The difference is driver's skill. Based on my opinion, it seems like there are alot more good road racers in Corvette than NSX. At time trials couple yrs ago, I saw a supercharged NSX ran the fastest time of the day in every single time trial he entered and one time he was on street tires and first time at that track (Dunlop SP9000). Then there are examples of slow NSX times such as the one in the One Lap. One rarely see street NSX in time trials let along win it.
On average most Corvette drivers are younger and are more into road racing, time trials thus they can exact more performance from their cars. It is also cheaper, so they can take more chances.
On a road course, it is mostly driver skill. A stock Z06 can not drive circles around a well prepared NSX like the one Wei-Shin has. The difference is driver's skill. Based on my opinion, it seems like there are alot more good road racers in Corvette than NSX. At time trials couple yrs ago, I saw a supercharged NSX ran the fastest time of the day in every single time trial he entered and one time he was on street tires and first time at that track (Dunlop SP9000). Then there are examples of slow NSX times such as the one in the One Lap. One rarely see street NSX in time trials let along win it.
On average most Corvette drivers are younger and are more into road racing, time trials thus they can exact more performance from their cars. It is also cheaper, so they can take more chances.
Yes, and there are also a lot more bad road racers in Corvettes than the NSX. That's because Corvette sells 4-5 times more cars in the States every year than all the NSXs that have ever been sold here.
On a percentage basis, I think there are more good road racers in NSXs than in Corvettes. Then again, I've been to NSXPO every year and I've seen what the experienced (and inexperienced) NSX drivers do with their cars, and you haven't.
I would be willing to bet good money that, on average, the average Corvette buyer is older than the average NSX buyer.
And, as noted above, on a percentage basis, more NSX drivers are into road racing and time trials. Heck, we've had something like 400 different NSX owners driving on the track in NSXPO alone, and that doesn't even count all the other events held by all the other track groups around the country. So all by itself, NSXPO accounts for 5 percent of all NSX owners taking their cars on the track. I doubt that there are 50,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes) Corvette owners who have tracked their cars in the six years since NSXPO first began, or even 10,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes sold in the last six years).
Yes, you do see Corvettes at the racetrack - quite a few of them. But you don't see 125 times as many as NSXs, even though there have been 125 times as many Corvettes sold as NSXs.
Isn't most NSX drivers only go to driving school rather than time trials and full competitive road racing? NSXPO is not a competitive event so you are not competing against other type of cars in your class.
And, as noted above, on a percentage basis, more NSX drivers are into road racing and time trials. Heck, we've had something like 400 different NSX owners driving on the track in NSXPO alone, and that doesn't even count all the other events held by all the other track groups around the country. So all by itself, NSXPO accounts for 5 percent of all NSX owners taking their cars on the track. I doubt that there are 50,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes) Corvette owners who have tracked their cars in the six years since NSXPO first began, or even 10,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes sold in the last six years).
Yes, you do see Corvettes at the racetrack - quite a few of them. But you don't see 125 times as many as NSXs, even though there have been 125 times as many Corvettes sold as NSXs.[/B][/QUOTE]
And, as noted above, on a percentage basis, more NSX drivers are into road racing and time trials. Heck, we've had something like 400 different NSX owners driving on the track in NSXPO alone, and that doesn't even count all the other events held by all the other track groups around the country. So all by itself, NSXPO accounts for 5 percent of all NSX owners taking their cars on the track. I doubt that there are 50,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes) Corvette owners who have tracked their cars in the six years since NSXPO first began, or even 10,000 (5 percent of all Corvettes sold in the last six years).
Yes, you do see Corvettes at the racetrack - quite a few of them. But you don't see 125 times as many as NSXs, even though there have been 125 times as many Corvettes sold as NSXs.[/B][/QUOTE]
No, not any more than for Corvettes.
You claimed that there are more Corvette road racers than NSX road racers, and that is undoubtedly true, just because there are 125 times more Corvettes on the road than NSXs. But if there aren't 125 times more Corvettes on the racetrack - and there aren't - then NSX drivers are more likely to have their cars on the track than Corvette drivers. This is just as true of competition events as it is of HPDE events.
Of course you are not competing against other types of cars! It's an all-NSX event, silly! Corvettes don't compete against other types of cars in their all-Corvette events either!
Khuang, it sounds like you have only been hanging out with the Corvette Club, because it's very clear that you haven't met very many of the NSX owners who are tracking their cars, either in HPDE events or competitive events. You should really join the NSX Club of America, and come to NSXPO! You will find out how much NSX owners enjoy driving our cars on the racetrack, and how experienced many of us are. I think you will be very surprised when you find out what NSX owners are really out there doing. You will learn a lot, and it will open your eyes!
Forgive me my dumb question but I know very little about the Z06 because it's not being sold where I come from.
What I understand is that the Z06 is a big car using an even bigger engine with lots op HP and torque, uses very big wheels and even bigger tires. Because there's a lot of plastic being used the car is still relatively light. Of course, the HP and torque advantage gives it a big edge in the acceleration department.
However, it's beging stated here that the Z06 is also a much better handling car than the NSX (run circles around the NSX ??).
Having read for years the NSX is very good in the handling department and defining handling in my book as quick to turn into corners, crispy steering-response. So, in what ways is the Z06 then so much superiour.
What if a NSX was equiped with a engine (supercharged or not) which would give it a similar HP/weight ratio?
Are the quicker laptimes not the results of having the better acceleration ??
What I understand is that the Z06 is a big car using an even bigger engine with lots op HP and torque, uses very big wheels and even bigger tires. Because there's a lot of plastic being used the car is still relatively light. Of course, the HP and torque advantage gives it a big edge in the acceleration department.
However, it's beging stated here that the Z06 is also a much better handling car than the NSX (run circles around the NSX ??).
Having read for years the NSX is very good in the handling department and defining handling in my book as quick to turn into corners, crispy steering-response. So, in what ways is the Z06 then so much superiour.
What if a NSX was equiped with a engine (supercharged or not) which would give it a similar HP/weight ratio?
Are the quicker laptimes not the results of having the better acceleration ??
MvM,
I wouldn't say that the Z06 is that much bigger than the NSX.
It certainly has more power and much more torque. It's also a fairly well balanced machine.
The primary criticism seems to be interior quality and design. It's also derided here because these cars are fairly commonplace.
Not too many people (if they're honest) can fault the car for its performance and "bang for the buck."
Quicker laptimes also have a lot to do with braking and handling. The Z06 has a very nice race-tuned suspension.
-Jim
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
I wouldn't say that the Z06 is that much bigger than the NSX.
It certainly has more power and much more torque. It's also a fairly well balanced machine.
The primary criticism seems to be interior quality and design. It's also derided here because these cars are fairly commonplace.
Not too many people (if they're honest) can fault the car for its performance and "bang for the buck."
Quicker laptimes also have a lot to do with braking and handling. The Z06 has a very nice race-tuned suspension.
-Jim
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
I am not convinced that the Z06 handles better than the NSX. I have yet to see a side-by-side magazine test other than the one Road & Track did in the rain. I think most of the comments (either way) are based more on emotion than actual experience.
I am not saying the Z06 handles better or worse than the NSX. As Jimbo notes, the Z06 is considered a great-handling car, just like the NSX. Until I see a side-by-side test on a dry track, I wouldn't claim anything more than that.
I am not saying the Z06 handles better or worse than the NSX. As Jimbo notes, the Z06 is considered a great-handling car, just like the NSX. Until I see a side-by-side test on a dry track, I wouldn't claim anything more than that.
I think one thing we can all agree on is that there's a real problem with the sales and pricing of the NSX.
It's not good for a low-volume halo car to be discounted down to $75K from $90K.
On a low-volume, limited production car like the NSX the car should be selling at MSRP (or even above). There should be waiting lists.
Something is obviously wrong.
IMHO, if Honda intends to keep this car around, even if they don't make money on it, I think they need to do something about power.
Whether it's by increasing displacement, moving to i-VTEC or even adding a modest FI system, or all of the above, they need to increase the HP into the 350 HP range.
I know the enthusiasts here would view this as a lame increase, but for the average NSX buyer it would at least make it competitive on paper.
I also think they need to address the big disparity between MSRP and discount levels. I'm not sure how they would do this, but somehow there's a way.
-Jim
PS: Road and Track (1-2001 - Sibling Rivalry) did a test that included the Z06 and the NSX on the same track...
NSX:
0-60 mph - 4.9 sec
Braking 60-0 - 134 ft
Lap time - 2 minutes, 14.15 sec
Slalom - 62.1 mph
Skidpad - 0.92g
Z06 (the 385 HP version, not the latest 405 HP car. I'm sure the extra 20 HP would help a little more)
0-60 mph - 4.6 sec
Braking 60-0 - 123 ft
Lap time - 2 minutes, 8.39 sec
Slalom - 67.1 mph
Skidpad - 1.00g
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
It's not good for a low-volume halo car to be discounted down to $75K from $90K.
On a low-volume, limited production car like the NSX the car should be selling at MSRP (or even above). There should be waiting lists.
Something is obviously wrong.
IMHO, if Honda intends to keep this car around, even if they don't make money on it, I think they need to do something about power.
Whether it's by increasing displacement, moving to i-VTEC or even adding a modest FI system, or all of the above, they need to increase the HP into the 350 HP range.
I know the enthusiasts here would view this as a lame increase, but for the average NSX buyer it would at least make it competitive on paper.
I also think they need to address the big disparity between MSRP and discount levels. I'm not sure how they would do this, but somehow there's a way.
-Jim
PS: Road and Track (1-2001 - Sibling Rivalry) did a test that included the Z06 and the NSX on the same track...
NSX:
0-60 mph - 4.9 sec
Braking 60-0 - 134 ft
Lap time - 2 minutes, 14.15 sec
Slalom - 62.1 mph
Skidpad - 0.92g
Z06 (the 385 HP version, not the latest 405 HP car. I'm sure the extra 20 HP would help a little more)
0-60 mph - 4.6 sec
Braking 60-0 - 123 ft
Lap time - 2 minutes, 8.39 sec
Slalom - 67.1 mph
Skidpad - 1.00g
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 16 February 2003).]
guys...
we can argue over the inferiority until we die, and nothing will change. lets just settle on preference of the people that owns it. some drives nsx, some ferrari, some vette, and some ford pinto--it's a matter of what we love. i have driven many cars in my life...ferrari 355, viper, z06, bmw..now still have a few cars in my garage--i love them all. to me, every car is unique in it own ways. now all i have to do is build a bigger garage!! "unique" is the word.
we can argue over the inferiority until we die, and nothing will change. lets just settle on preference of the people that owns it. some drives nsx, some ferrari, some vette, and some ford pinto--it's a matter of what we love. i have driven many cars in my life...ferrari 355, viper, z06, bmw..now still have a few cars in my garage--i love them all. to me, every car is unique in it own ways. now all i have to do is build a bigger garage!! "unique" is the word.
As a few others have mentioned, I also have NEVER had any problem beating any Vettes. Z06 or the regular plastic variety. I actually embarrassed a Z06 this morning on the way to work. I never initiate any street race but if they line up next to me and start revving, I just can't resist. I've beaten Vettes over 10 times and it's at the point now where I just give them the 'Mustang brush off'. A little flick of my hand as if to say, 'you're not even worth the gas and effort'. I'd be amazed to see a Vette beat an NSX in any kind of race. Especially at high speed, I've run away from Vettes when over 100mph. That's my experience anyway.
Well, I think your experience is atypical and it's hard to make any meaningful conclusions from anecdotal stories.
All documented evidence indicates that the Z06 is faster and handles better than the NSX.
Big deal. I can live with that. I didn't buy a NSX because it was 2 tenths of a second faster than a Vette. And I wouldn't have bought a Z06 for that reason either. It was the whole package with the NSX that did it for me.
There's always going to be some car that's faster and slower. The Z06 just so happens to be faster.
-Jim
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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
All documented evidence indicates that the Z06 is faster and handles better than the NSX.
Big deal. I can live with that. I didn't buy a NSX because it was 2 tenths of a second faster than a Vette. And I wouldn't have bought a Z06 for that reason either. It was the whole package with the NSX that did it for me.
There's always going to be some car that's faster and slower. The Z06 just so happens to be faster.
-Jim
------------------
1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
1976 Honda Accord 5 spd, 3 door Blue/Blue
1977 Honda Accord - Custom - Under Construction
2003 MINI Cooper S - On Order - All Black
1986 Chevy Suburban
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
I have not seen any documented evidence that the Z06 handles better than the NSX. Faster skidpad numbers or slalom numbers is not the same thing as better handling.
I wish the weather had been better for the March 2002 Road & Track article, because that's what they were trying to write about.
As far as the pricing goes, there are two different issues here: (1) the difference between the NSX selling price and the NSX MSRP, and (2) the difference between the NSX selling price and the Z06 selling price.
I agree that Acura should do something about (1). They should incorporate the incentives into the dealer invoice price, and should lower the difference between dealer invoice and MSRP. I would like to see them have an MSRP of $76-79K and a dealer invoice of $72K. Of course, dealers would oppose this because they retain the fantasy that someone is going to walk into the showroom, see the $89K sticker, and buy it at that price.
However, I don't think that Acura needs to compete in price with the Corvette. Even when the NSX first appeared, you could buy a Corvette (the ZR-1) with more power for less money. The NSX today is still pretty darn close, in price and performance, to a normally aspirated Porsche 911. There are many things about the NSX that are superior to the Z06, other areas on the Z06 that are superior. Both are fine cars. Each does things quite differently. (A friend who owns both says that it is similar to the difference between a scalpel and a chain saw.)
If you are talking strictly "bang for the buck", there is always a better bargain out there. The Z06 may give more bang for the buck than an NSX. A 385-hp Mustang may give more bang for the buck than a Z06. And the buyer of a Neon SRT-4 may claim that his car provides more bang for the buck, at $17,500 after rebates, than a Mustang for twice the price or a Z06 for three times the price.
And you know this is going to be the mantra of every SRT-4 owner. Which is totally fine b/c it's great that they're wringing that much performance out of a Neon. The better performance, the better for everyone involved. It seems we're in the mist of a great hp-sports car war. Has anyone noticed the hp Mercedes is offering now? Jeez, talk about overkill. Just think if the NSX had 496 supercharged hp from the factory.
Re: the Z06. Although it hasn't been as quick as my NSX at the track, I'm sure they're a quicker car given equal drivers. It's just that I haven't seen any of them (except for 2, with one of those on slicks) that was quicker. I'm sure they'll be proven quicker when I go to MSR and Mid-Ohio this year. But then again, maybe not.
Well, you can pretty much forget about catching these guys after they get this!
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/news/2003_z06.html
http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/news/2003_z06.html
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