Winter storage
- Thread starter Drsnsx
- Start date
assuming synthetic oil ? I would not unless truly obsessive but my practice is to do it as I take it out for the spring , no right or wrong way . actually last time I did it why such low mileage. my buddy asked if he can have my oil for his every da car lol. feel your pain as well being here in north east . I did a timing belt on time that had less them 700 miles on it. I add fuel stabilizer and also put some bounce sheets inside cockpit and trunk and I over inlflate tires by few pounds ,
If that is full synthetic oil and assuming that is not 700 x 1 mile trips (the engine is getting up to operating temperature on each trip) and your PVC system is not gummed up then my opinion is go 2 years on an oil change. I am doing around 1000 miles per year or less and about 6 years ago I switched to changing the oil and filter every two years. I do my oil change in the Fall so that it only has one winter of storage with 'less than fresh' oil.
Warm weather driving is much more conducive to the oil staying clean than winter driving. The oil that comes out after two years when I do my oil changes is looking pretty fresh. Save it for use in your gas lawnmower if you have one.
Warm weather driving is much more conducive to the oil staying clean than winter driving. The oil that comes out after two years when I do my oil changes is looking pretty fresh. Save it for use in your gas lawnmower if you have one.
Another option would be to drain the oil and not swap out the filter until next the next change...
Having done just 20k in 32 years i've sweated this issue for some time and have often NOT taken the car out for short-ish trips for fear of that dreaded "condensation" - bummer! I recently looked to rebuild my AC compressor and DID find corrosion likely from disuse. Is this happening in my engine/trans? Maybe - I'm telling myself anyway that these low mileage issues are not that great of a problem, although that may of course be wishful thinking. As OG stated the temperature of your drives/storage is certainly an issue. Regarding stabilizers (Stabil) i have very strong feelings against it's use. These stabilizers if left in too long turn to wax. I drained my tank awhile ago as my gas was a little over a year old and i found several oz's of white waxy stuff that was difficult to get flushed out. Likely from using this stuff over many years. No run issues, but on research (u-tube? he-he) realized this stuff is just not worth the risk. Don't have a definative recommendation at this time, but looking at ways to restore the fuel like possibly PRI-G (reported to be the product used by our major fuel suppliers) or perhaps ETHANOL SHIELD products. I use Mobil 1 10/40 (started out with 15/50) and change my brake fluid at max 5 years or for any track session. It's pretty rare where i live, but I do pay attention to when my garage (car) is very cold and i open the door to very warm moist air that causes condensation on the entire car. Thats bad. Just my personal perhaps OCD thoughts.
Your comments on the fuel stabilizers are interesting. I don't use it on the NSX because it has a sealed evap system. I just fill the tank right up to max before storing to minimize the amount of O2 present and select a premium fuel which is alcohol free (easy to find where I live). I do use the fuel stabilizer on a very vintage car and a bunch of yard equipment none of which have sealed fuel systems and have not encountered that problem you describe. Is it possible that it is related to the fuel you were using.
I also live with the cold garage / warm air condensation issue. I use one of these on the NSX
www.carbag.com
It comes with desiccant to keep the interior dry; but, I find the fact that it prevents warm air from contacting cold steel parts seems to do the trick even without the desiccant. Rodents also seem to leave it alone. One spring I found some voles who had set up a nest under the jacket; but, left the jacket alone.
I also live with the cold garage / warm air condensation issue. I use one of these on the NSX
CarJacket – CarBag
www.carbag.com
While I understand the conventional wisdom of filling the tank completely before storage to prevent in-tank condensation, I just keep about a half tank. A full tank will ensure that I spend half of the next season with old-ish gas and I never run a full tank anyway just as a weight savings (!) In the spring I add a bottle of Tecron followed by 4-5 gallons of fresh Shell 93, start and stop the car abruptly 6-8 times or so and circle a roundabout a few times (got to get those tires scuffed a bit) to get it mixed up and then take a long drive. It’s my understanding that the techron will cause any moisture drops from the top of the tank to go into solution therefore getting burned without worries about a “slug”. And then a few years ago the tank moisture theory thing got to me and I started using Stabil. Then just this spring I noticed this milky/waxy stuff and jumped to blame it on the Stabil. My buildup certainly could have been a bad batch of gas (residue from the bottom of the storage tank) and not the stabilizer. In fact after a little more research it seems more likely than not. So perhaps sorry Stabil, but just in case, I’m personally dropping it. Having designed several underground fueling stations it is certainly possible to get a bunch of residue from the bottom of the tank that may have sat for a very long time. The storage tank filters are not that fine so they don’t clog up too fast and inconvenience the vendor. A U-tube guy stated that if you see a fill truck at your local station, go somewhere else as the fill process can stir up the debris at the bottom of the tank. Makes sense to me. I used only Sunoco 94 until it went away and have since used only Shell premium 93. This brings to mind if almost half of my driving is done with Tecron in the tank – am I unduly flushing my cylinders walls? Maybe – since the Shell 93 is supposed to have a cleaner in it, I should possibly drop the Tecron also and not worry about the in-tank moisture as I’ve never personally had a hint of a moisture issue with the Sunoco or Shell products. Thanks for the Carbag tip - way better than my standard baggies on the tail pipes and a foam plug for the left vent.
Do all cars 1990 and up cars have sealed evap system?
All models of the NSX have a semi sealed Evap system. None of the Evap control systems are 100% sealed because they need to admit air into the tank to allow for fuel being used up. They are sealed (sort of) to block air and vapours from exiting the tank into the atmosphere by the Evap systems two way valve.
If you store your NSX, when the temperature drops the fuel and air in the tank will contract and it will suck outside air in to the tank to make up for that. However, once it has sucked outside air in it will stabilize and the two way valve in the evap system will close and prevent that air from exiting the tank when the temperature warms up unless the air pressure exceeds the setting of the two way valve in which case it will vent into the charcoal cannister and release pressure. So unlike in the old days the tank can breathe in once; but, its ability to breathe out is restricted as the temperatures go up (that is why you get that pfft when you open the gas cap on a hot day). The reduced breathing in and out as the temperature goes up and down every day while in storage reduces the moisture getting into the tank.
I like to store the car with as much gas in the tank as possible to minimize that air space. That minimizes the amount of initial breathing in as that air contracts as the temperature drops. It also minimizes the pressure increase on those warm days which may cause the two way valve to open to vent into the cannister which could then result in air being sucked back in when the temperature drops again. Chances are that with a full tank the 2 way valve may never burp into the cannister all winter long so fresh air never gets sucked back in.
Liquid fuel contracts as the temperature drops; but, it contracts less than air. If I put my NSX into storage at 10 C and the temperature drops to -40C during the winter the gasoline will contract by about 5% . However, the air will contract by about 21%. If the 70 liter NSX tank is full of gasoline it will want to suck in 3.5 l or air as the temperature drops from 10C to -40C. If the NSX tank is completely empty it will want to suck in 'approximately' 14.7 l of air as the temperature drops from 10C to -40C. You cannot 100% eliminate air getting sucked into the fuel tank as the temperature drops; but, you can minimize it which can minimize or eliminate the breathing problem.
If you have a 1995 or later OBDII car the OBDII system will let you know whether that all critical 2 way valve is working and the fuel cap is sealing by generating a CEL if it isn't. The earlier cars are designed as sealed systems; but, will not tell you if the 2 way valve has failed or the cap is not sealing.
If you store your NSX, when the temperature drops the fuel and air in the tank will contract and it will suck outside air in to the tank to make up for that. However, once it has sucked outside air in it will stabilize and the two way valve in the evap system will close and prevent that air from exiting the tank when the temperature warms up unless the air pressure exceeds the setting of the two way valve in which case it will vent into the charcoal cannister and release pressure. So unlike in the old days the tank can breathe in once; but, its ability to breathe out is restricted as the temperatures go up (that is why you get that pfft when you open the gas cap on a hot day). The reduced breathing in and out as the temperature goes up and down every day while in storage reduces the moisture getting into the tank.
I like to store the car with as much gas in the tank as possible to minimize that air space. That minimizes the amount of initial breathing in as that air contracts as the temperature drops. It also minimizes the pressure increase on those warm days which may cause the two way valve to open to vent into the cannister which could then result in air being sucked back in when the temperature drops again. Chances are that with a full tank the 2 way valve may never burp into the cannister all winter long so fresh air never gets sucked back in.
Liquid fuel contracts as the temperature drops; but, it contracts less than air. If I put my NSX into storage at 10 C and the temperature drops to -40C during the winter the gasoline will contract by about 5% . However, the air will contract by about 21%. If the 70 liter NSX tank is full of gasoline it will want to suck in 3.5 l or air as the temperature drops from 10C to -40C. If the NSX tank is completely empty it will want to suck in 'approximately' 14.7 l of air as the temperature drops from 10C to -40C. You cannot 100% eliminate air getting sucked into the fuel tank as the temperature drops; but, you can minimize it which can minimize or eliminate the breathing problem.
If you have a 1995 or later OBDII car the OBDII system will let you know whether that all critical 2 way valve is working and the fuel cap is sealing by generating a CEL if it isn't. The earlier cars are designed as sealed systems; but, will not tell you if the 2 way valve has failed or the cap is not sealing.
This. I told my real estate agent I'm looking for a bungalow with a 4-stall garage, no pool, and @Honcho and @Old Guy for neighbours.@Old Guy - Thank you for the detail explanation. I wish you were my neighbor.
At the risk of sounding glib, it's in the owner's manual (p 226) on storage, which is what I follow, even though I'm not sure the original engineers were contemplating caring for 30-year-old cars:
- Fill the fuel tank. (I agree with @Old Guy 's perception; 100% full, premium, no stabilizer added.)
- Change the engine oil and filter. (Mobil 1 FS. New oil in the fall so it's sitting with the cleanest oil possible - seems like cheap insurance).
- Wash and dry the exterior completely. (I also wax.)
- Clean the interior. Make sure the carpeting, floor mats, etc. are completely dry.
- Leave the parking brake off.
- Put the transmission in Reverse (manual) or Park (automatic).
- Block the rear wheels. (Not sure why the tranny matters then. Belts & braces? I leave it in Neutral.)
- If the car is to be stored for a longer period, it should be supported on jackstands so the tires are off the ground. (There was a previous thread on this that thought the suspension could be damaged, but this is what the owner's manual recommends. Mine sat for 3-4 months while I had the steering rack rebuilt.) Unfortunately, "longer period" is not defined. a month? a year? 25 years next to an active welding location because your insurance rates went up?
- Leave one window open slightly if the car is being stored indoors. (I add a Sta-Dri to the trunk.)
- Disconnect the battery. (I use a Manual battery shut-off. Parasitic losses won't drain my LiFePO4 battery, even though it has it's own low-voltage shut-off around 25% capacity. Probably should remove the battery and store it indoors if you're using lead-acid and the temp is going below freezing.)
- Support the front wiper blade arms with a folded towel or rag so they do not touch the windshield.
- To minimize sticking, apply a silicone spray lubricant to all door and trunk seals. (I use shinitsu on all the rubber.) Also, apply a vehicle body wax to the painted surfaces that mate with the door and trunk seals.
- Cover the car with a "breathable" cover, one made from a porous material such as cotton. Nonporous materials, such as plastic sheeting, trap moisture, which can damage the paint. (I used to cover it with an indoor cover, but seeing it every time I go to the garage from something from the freezer puts such a smile on my face, I leave it uncovered now and just dust it every now and then.)
- If possible, run the engine for a while periodically. (I haven't been doing this because "cold starts" are supposed to be a high-wear activity, but maybe I should for the A/C seals? It goes to -15 in my garage. Wish I could take it out on an occasional nice day like @docjohn , but no way I'm letting it get exposed to road salt/residue.)
- A complete Leatherique treatment to all leather.
- I just pump the tires to rated, but I move the car manually every few weeks - never had flat spots yet.
- My other concern is humidity. It's very humid year-round in our little pocket surrounded by the great lakes. I'm always blown away by the rust-free condition of 40-year-old cars in Arizona, although their leather seats are toast. I use a dehumidifier in my garage to keep the moisture <40% year round. Have to use a desiccant dehumidifier since it goes well below freezing here. My research has never yielded the optimal humidity for storage, balancing metal and leather components.
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Does anyone put in ethanol free gas? It’s hard to find in much of the country of course. https://www.pure-gas.org/
Yes
Easy to do where I live because ethanol free premium is really common. All the 87 octane fuel is E10.
My car is a 97 with 114k (bought with 85 k 2008) average 2k miles a year . If no salt on roads I take it out every weekend during winter ,30-40 miles of highway cruising. I don't
think its been dormant longer than 1 month. Winter have been pretty mild in southern NY , now I'll shut up ,don't want to jinx myself .
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think its been dormant longer than 1 month. Winter have been pretty mild in southern NY , now I'll shut up ,don't want to jinx myself .
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So, has storage time hit yet? I did mine almost two weeks ago. It was a beautiful Fall day and seemed way too early and the weather has remained pleasant since. However, in the past I have also pushed it a little too far and had to deal with an early snow fall that did not go away. I use a sealed storage bag so a wet car is a very bad thing.
What to do, what to do!
What to do, what to do!
The weather was beautiful in Dallas today. I was just driving mine around when I ran into a boatload of NSX's driving all over the place. Even an orange one with pop-ups! Must be some sort of convention or something.
I'm so thankful I live in Arizona. Ready to drive 365 days a year.
Ready to drive 365 days a year.Similar threads
