Will FI be as reliable as Na??

[Frank Spano]

I am considering going FI, most likely the Lovefab budget kit or possibly a comptech unit.Most likely if I do this it will be Codys kit, which produces 400 hp on stock internals. My only concern is that I want my car to still be reliable, and don't want any issues down the road. My car is a weekend car, not driven that much unfortunately do to my work schedule.:frown: Any help would be appreciated, I would love the extra HP, but I don't want to sacrafice the reliability of my car either. Thanks, Frank

 

[4AU4LIFE]

In short, no.
There are some very reliable systems out there but if you are changing the powertrain system from the way it left the factory then there is always the risk of running into problems.
Vehicles that come OEM with s/c or turbo's were designed from the outset to be that way and are built to accomodate the extra pressure. Those that weren't designed that way are more susceptible to problems.
It is very refreshing and comforting knowing that 99.999999% of the time when I go to my car it will start and run just like it is supposed to.

 

[prestonmay]

Of course instead of it being 99 percent reliable it may go down to 95 percent ..... I have CTSC....20k (2 owners)miles 3 years no issues related to CTSC. However, it is a weekend car.........................and NOT A DD for me.
But, IF ACURA was installing CTSC in late 90's with the ACURA Warranty and aftermarket installs was not voiding the warranty.... That speaks for itself.....

Just because it came from the FActory also....doesnt mean its reliable...

1993 RX7 for example...small radiator, no downpipe, intercooler..... Blew Apex, even when not pushed over time. Sitting at a light too long was not great for that car turbo system....


But some systems are more reliable then others.....

Your current car status (eng), system you choose, installer and tuning ..all play a role....

Pay for the LEAKDOWN/COmp test before you go any further.....FI will expose issues you dont know you have--IMO (NOVICE)

 

[Racerxjling]

Going FI will make your car less reliable. As stated, if properly built/tuned the decreased reliability can be minimal. However, there is always a trade off. I remember a tuner saying "wanna go fast, sh*t is going to break". I have FI but don't drive my car enough to tell u reliability issues. I bought the car w/ the CTSC but made it more reliabile w/ tuning/AEM etc. IMO, well worth the trade off in reliability...FI is addicting.

Jeff

 

[nsxotic911]

No, but it will make you faster. Over the long run, I'd say wear and tear will probably increase 10-25% with moderate use, and chances to break probably 25% in "moderate/average" systems.

If you tune it aggressively, drive it hard, those numbers go to 50%+ imho.

I think the biggest issue is the fact that something breaking in the "critical components chain" becomes much more problematic. EG:

-Fuel filter clogged could cause fuel starvation and boom. Bad fuel, same thing, faulty injector etc..
-Increased preassure wears and thins oil faster and increases wear, can cause oiling issues.
-More g's through the corners due to speed and grip means oil starvation possibility greater.
-Bouncing off 8000 RPM is plenty of stress in NA, now add FI.
-Aftermarket ECUs have their own blessings and problem. In short, Honda with a team of highly skilled engineers didn't tune it but instead, someone that is really good and will get close enough in many situations, and maybe not that one that you hit..
-Aftermarket components have the same problem as above - it's not made by Honda. It may be "faster, lighter, stronger, cooler" - but it's not made by Honda.. (see my oil sample and titanium post on this..)

Not trying to scare you away - if you want FI, do it, but realize you are taking risks. Those risks are mitigating by how good your setup is, how well you monitor and maintain the car, and how hard you beat on the car. If "average, poor and hard" combination, I gaurantee it will below up in 10K or less. If "good, very good and moderate," you should do 25K, 50K, maybe even 100K (though do tell us!)

Hope this helps.

 

[01blacks4]

i am always amazed at the people who post responses to questions like the OP asked....99% of the time 99% of them DONT EVEN HAVE FI......

Frank, with proper maintaining and design, it will be just as reliable....which is an opion call anyway as to what reliable is....

good luck, I still have enough parts laying around to ship you a complete setup Frank..

 

[nathan]

i am always amazed at the people who post responses to questions like the OP asked....99% of the time 99% of them DONT EVEN HAVE FI......

Frank, with proper maintaining and design, it will be just as reliable....which is an opion call anyway as to what reliable is....

good luck, I still have enough parts laying around to ship you a complete setup Frank..

I would say the above comments are about 99% accurate.

 

[BATMANs]

The issues with reliablity ranges from acute pain to chronic pain.
In other words, KABOOM like how some of the guys did to faster wear and tear, more frequent service intervals......

 

[nsxotic911]

i am always amazed at the people who post responses to questions like the OP asked....99% of the time 99% of them DONT EVEN HAVE FI......

If you're referring to me, I must be in the 1% as I do have FI and know a number of people with FI, most with some form of complication.

Although I wouldn't go back for a sec, one is deluding oneself to think that there are not at least moderate costs and risks with squeezing 60-100 more rwhp.

Case In Point: Anyone here have 100K on their FI? How bout 100K on their NA NSX? At least 50,100 hands will go up on the latter... and I haven't found one person in the 1st. Correlation is not causation, but it is a factor.

 

[synth19]

I have owned a 500whp built 350z on low boost. From my experience, you cannot say an FI car is going to be "as reliable" as a NA car. Anytime you FORCE a car to do something it was not originally designed to do, there is always a chance of something happening. Granted, a car can be tuned well and you may never have problems, but don't assume anything and always be prepared for something to go wrong. With that said, I've never had any major issues with my FI setup.

 

[DocL]

I'm not going to give a thesis on this subject. The answer is NO.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

My only concern is that I want my car to still be reliable, and don't want any issues down the road. I don't want to sacrafice the reliability of my car either. Thanks, Frank

So you said three times you want it to be reliable. So let's put it another way.

Does taking an otherwise expensive, high reving, high compression naturally aspirated V6... that is already making 90hp/liter... and further stressing the cast pistons and stock design... with a bolt on cost-conscious tuner turbo kit... tuned by another NSX garage tuner... often to 150+ hp/liter.... sound like about what you are looking for in terms of servicability over the long haul? Smooth sailing?

My opinion is that plenty of vendors will tell you what ever you want to hear; instead of being forthright that they want to do their R&D on your dollar.

If you want to re-engineer and convert the NA engine to turbo, budget big on the NSX, and even then some bumps in the road along the way has always been the norm.

i am always amazed at the people who post responses to questions like the OP asked....99% of the time 99% of them DONT EVEN HAVE FI......

I have never owned a 1984 Fiero, but let me say that it never once stopped me from offering my opinion whenever cool kit cars came up. :biggrin:

Frank, with proper maintaining and design, it will be just as reliable....which is an opion call anyway as to what reliable is....

Yes. It is an opinion call. Mine is obviously not in-line with Parker Johnstone's. But hey, whatever... I'm sure many of you are on big-dawg race budgets too.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

Over the long run, I'd say wear and tear will probably increase 10-25% with moderate use, and chances to break probably 25% in "moderate/average" systems.

Paul, curious on the source of these detailed FI NSX engine wear statistics... Let me guess. One sample set....given oil analysis results... coupled with several long months of endurance testing in cool weather... down the 405... when it wasn't being worked on and started.... prior to the first unscheduled tear-down...

My comment here is that while everyone's contribution is valuable... if we need to start another NA vs. FI reliability thead.... it would be clearer for everyone to simply state their strict observations/experience without all the added verbatim/interpretation/subjectivity.

(i.e. X shop installed Y kit on my car with Z miles. I drove the car like this for a total of N hours of operation. It was never tracked. My first tear down was on.....")

A lot clearer.

-Fuel filter clogged could cause fuel starvation and boom. Bad fuel, same thing, faulty injector etc..

That happens with NA too.

Bouncing off 8000 RPM is plenty of stress in NA, now add FI.

Not sure what I did wrong. It still went 8,000 RPM!!

-Increased preassure wears and thins oil faster and increases wear, can cause oiling issues.

Oil pressure is a function of the oil pump and hence RPM. It is the added heat from cramming in more air and fuel into each cylinder at multiples over atmospheric and then igniting it which could potentially be to blame for compromised oil viscosity due to thermal break-down.

-More g's through the corners due to speed and grip means oil starvation possibility greater.

So FI get's you more speed and grip in the corners... increasing the possibility of oil starvation...

Ok then. Would you like to borrow my AMB transponder at your first track event?

 

[Vega$ NSX]

There is an interesting mechanical study (I forgot the specific name) but the gist of it is, for the most part, anytime you add components to a system, the probability of any one part of the system to fail increases by some formula. In other words, all things being held equal, a system with more parts/pieces will have a greater percentage of a part failing then a system with less parts/pieces.

 

[NSXAMG996TT]

If you want to play, you've gotta pay. Driving a FI car also has a steep learning curve.

 

[JeffShoots]

......the gist of it is, for the most part, anytime you add components to a system, the probably of any one part of the system to fail increases by some formula. In other words, all things being held equal, a system with more parts/pieces will have a greater percentage of a part failing then a system with less parts/pieces.

Vega$, That's my new quote. Thanks, Jeff

 

[scorp965]

fwiw, I have logged over 6000 miles on my HP turbo, and approx 5000 on a supercharger before that; I am running 0.55 bar of boost, on an excellent tune, and am making in excess of 400rwhp on a 3.0L engine, which has 104k total miles on it. At the moment, there are no problems to report, although I am having a final 'tweak' tune tomorrow morning, after reconfiguring some components.

I am not a vendor telling people what they want to hear, but I will say this, the nsx is a heck of a lot more fun to drive with 400rwhp than it is with 270rwhp. If this means I will need to rebuild my engine at 50k miles, rather than at 150k miles, I would be okay with doing so, although even this does not seem like it will be necessary. With my previous supercharger, which produced 0.5 bar, there was a car in Japan with the same configuration, which had gone the equivilant of 100k forced-induction miles, without issue.

We all know these cars have reliable drivetains, but some cars have issues that other ones do not. What may be good for one car in Japan, might not be the same for another car in Arizona, and so forth. I am not going to pull percentages out of my ass, but I will say this - if you have a healthy nsx, you install a quality forced induction solution, and spend the time to understand the basics of how it works, and how you need to maintain it, and you have a quality tuner, a turbocharged nsx can be very reliable. Another practice which I would recommend is to stash money towards a rebuild, in case something bad does happen. You could end up never needing it, or if you do need it, you will be able to build an engine more suited towards the stresses of forced induction. Think of it as a contra account to your nsx enjoyment, which will be greatly improved with the influx of power a turbocharger or supercharger will provide.

 

[nsxotic911]

Paul, I assume you arrived at these detailed FI NSX engine wear statistics... over one sample set....given your latest oil analysis results... coupled with several long months of endurance testing in cool weather... on the 405... when it wasn't being worked on and started.... prior to the first unscheduled tear-down...

My comment here is that while everyone's contribution is valuable... it would be clearer for everyone to simply state their strict observations/experience without all the added verbatim/interpretation/subjectivity.

(i.e. X shop installed Y kit on my car with Z miles. I drove the car like this for a total of N hours of operation. It was never tracked. My first tear down was on.....")

A lot clearer.




That happens with NA too.





Not sure what I did wrong. It still went 8,000 RPM!!





Oil pressure is a function of the oil pump and hence RPM. It is the added heat from cramming in more air and fuel into each cylinder at multiples over atmospheric and then igniting it which could potentially be to blame for compromised oil viscosity due to thermal break-down.




So FI get's you more speed and grip in the corners... increasing the possibility of oil starvation...

Ok then. So, Would you like to borrow my AMB transponder at your first track event?

There is no reason to be confused.

The point was as Vegas, yourself and others have mentioned that additional components and greater stress results in > wear.

Your points and observation themselves are qualitive and not quantitive so get off my back :smile:

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

There is no reason to be confused.

The point was as Vegas, yourself and others have mentioned that additional components and greater stress results in > wear.

Your points and observation themselves are qualitive and not quantitive so get off my back :smile:

Exactly. Additional stress and > wear.... mostly on the wallet. Take it off, sell it, then put it back to stock. Next track day is PCA on June 22nd. Come on out!

 

[BATMANs]

....... but I will say this, the nsx is a heck of a lot more fun to drive with 400rwhp than it is with 270rwhp. If this means I will need to rebuild my engine at 50k miles, rather than at 150k miles, I would be okay with doing so, .....

Amen.

Hence why I had my RX7 for so long. And even with the "routine" rebuilds, at 430rwhp on a 2500lbs car I was raping 99% of the cars on the street, either in the turns or drag. The NSX was a downgrade in performance, especially in HP/TQ and braking.

That's where the GTO came into place to satisfy my HP/TQ cravings.

 

[WOODY]

The only way to avoid disappointment with FI is plan for the worst and enjoy anything better than that!

 

[Vega$ NSX]

Vega$, That's my new quote. Thanks, Jeff

Haha, nice! :biggrin: Now that you put it that way, I think I have too many parts too! :tongue:

 

[nsxotic911]

Exactly. Additional stress and > wear.... mostly on the wallet. Take it off, sell it, then put it back to stock. Next track day is PCA on June 22nd. Come on out!

Give me details. I'm gonna have to be show-boating though because of concerns with my engine..

 

[BadCarma]

Like Doc said I am not going to write a long post , real world you did not even need to ask. A search of this forums threads reminds me of driving my jeep thru rubicon fest, miles of broken steel from past 'events. same holds true here. miles of blown engines and a search will prove this true.you are always putting an NSX at a higher percentage of possible engine damage with n20,S/C and turbo. I think it is worth the risk if you are diligent and learn what it is you are doing.for the record I am for (pro) boost of any sort that is well designed. I say roll them bones.

EVERYONE WANTS GO TO HEAVEN NOBODY WANTS DIE RASTA if you dont get what I just wrote dont boost you car frank

my .02

best regards david
ps many people have had forced induction on their cars for years with no serious issues and others blown motors out of the gate for many different reasons.