Why is turbocharging the NSX so difficult?

[jcjcf1]

Ok, I've searched the FAQ and past posts on this subject and may have missed something pertinent, but why are there no reasonably priced turbo kits for the NSX?

Shows like Tuner Transformation and NOPI Tunervision on SpeedTV would lead me to believe that applying FI to many Japanese cars is not that big of a problem. Granted, it is possible that most of these engines are suffering disastrous consequences after such mods, but I wouldn't think that is the case. And tuning for proper AFR doesn't appear to present much of a problem. Also, other than engine-specific brackets, it would appear that people are using off-the-shelf components to comprise the bulk of their turbo systems. I'm obviously talking about moderate horsepower boosts (+/-100)to primarily stock engines here.

So what's different about the NSX engine? Just the relatively small numbers to experiment with and the high price of engine failure? Or are there some other basic reasons?

Also, for someone who wants to learn a LOT more about the nuts and bolts of turbo systems and fuel management systems (and I'm not just talking about theory - I mean practical application), what are some good sources of such info?

Any information would be appreciated.

 

[drew]

The Mass Air FI systems are much easier than Speed Density to add forced induction. Most FI cars built since 1988 have MA.

Naturally, the NSX has SD....

 

[j14nsx]

Start with the packaging. There's little room in the engine compartment. It's a V engine, and so either have one turbo on each bank, or need more pipework for one turbo. The engine is in the rear, and so needs more work for intercooling. The engine is transverse, and that seems to make things complicated than it needs to be. Look at how a Ferrari F40 is connected up with turbos, nice and neat.

I don't know much about the engine specifics, but just the physical aspects seem tricky.

 

[GHOSTRIDER]

Besides the mentioned things above, the fact that the NSX is a relatively rare car lends the manufacturers of turbo kits to have to charge more per kit to absorb the cost of production, R&D, materials, and so forth. It seems to me that the only way to justify making a kit for the NSX is to charge what they have been to get it to the market. Of course the consumer suffers from this by having to pay much more for FI mods on a NSX than someone driving a 350Z or a Civic.

 

[jcjcf1]

Besides the mentioned things above, the fact that the NSX is a relatively rare car lends the manufacturers of turbo kits to have to charge more per kit to absorb the cost of production, R&D, materials, and so forth. It seems to me that the only way to justify making a kit for the NSX is to charge what they have been to get it to the market. Of course the consumer suffers from this by having to pay much more for FI mods on a NSX than someone driving a 350Z or a Civic.

A valid analysis to a point, but I have to assume that overall demand for these installations is significantly influenced by price. Spreading R&D cost over more units sold does not appear to be a priority. It just seems to me that a reasonably priced, reliable kit that provides modest but noticeable horsepower gains would sell in much larger numbers than anything out there now. Is this just not possible, or is it simply that no one has tried to do it? Comptech's supercharger seems like the closest attempt to a generic solution, but it seems expensive relative to similar installations on other Japanese cars.

 

[Joseph]

The Mass Air FI systems are much easier than Speed Density to add forced induction. Most FI cars built since 1988 have MA.

Naturally, the NSX has SD....

I disagree.
Mass air(air flow meter)is not much different than speed density(map sensor) when it comes to turbocharging.

 

[D'Ecosse]

Until recently, one of the biggest obstacles has been availability of a low-cost engine management system, readily available from a number of sources for mass-produced vehicles. Motec, Electromotive and such devices are serious $$$ and a significant % in overall cost of a system. "Cheaper" devices like SS have proved to have some quite disastrous consequences.
However, in the last year the AEM device has certainly opened up the potential for lower cost systems and created the opportunity really for someone to consider a DIY system relatively inexpensively. If you consider what is required, a turbo bolt-on is not really that difficult to put together and tuning to create power safely through appropriate fuel & timing management is what has seperated the men from the boys in the NSX FI arena.
One "issue" (if that's the right word) with turbo's is they are so easy to turn up the wick, that I could understand vendors' reluctance to make kits readily available w/o an associated engine build to accommodate higher boost levels. That obviously transposes to a significant incremental cost.
Cooling is probably the next order of difficulty (& associated cost), but there are now plenty of examples of both air/air & air/water solutions that are manageable, especially if you are not looking for the ultimate power trip.
For me, (& I suspect many others) I'd be content with a turbo system comprising adequate engine management to safely boost 6-8 lbs without requirement of an engine rebuild or an overly complex cooler. I'm not sure why this can't be done for $6000 for a "kit", not inclusive of installation & tuning. Note that the engine management system would still represent ~ 25% of the cost!

 

[NetViper]

I'd be content with a turbo system comprising adequate engine management to safely boost 6-8 lbs without requirement of an engine rebuild or an overly complex cooler. I'm not sure why this can't be done for $6000 for a "kit", not inclusive of installation & tuning. Note that the engine management system would still represent ~ 25% of the cost!

I think that is what Cybernations tried to do, but they were not successful. I know they decided to focus on integras and civics, but I don't understand why they still couldn't do a NSX kit. It is not like the volume of NSX customers would greatly disrupt their production line.

 

[jcjcf1]

For me, (& I suspect many others) I'd be content with a turbo system comprising adequate engine management to safely boost 6-8 lbs without requirement of an engine rebuild or an overly complex cooler. I'm not sure why this can't be done for $6000 for a "kit", not inclusive of installation & tuning. Note that the engine management system would still represent ~ 25% of the cost!

That's exactly what I want. I think there's a market, but no NSX specialist seems interested.

 

[KGP]

That's exactly what I want. I think there's a market, but no NSX specialist seems interested.

I'd be content with a turbo system comprising adequate engine management to safely boost 6-8 lbs without requirement of an engine rebuild...

I think the word "safely" needs to be looked at from a business proposition. With a turbo system being so easy to crank up the boost to, a developer of such a system runs an enormous risk to their enterprise should they make available a kit to bolt-on to an OEM engine configuration. NSX owners can whine and claim "but I wouldn't do this or that," but the stark reality is that the developer is faced with increased risks that could present them with monetary consequences. If I were a turbo developer, there is no way I would offer a kit to be bolted on to an NSX engine with OEM pistons. In fact, I have told a developer the same thing (as if my advice matters ). I would also not leave the tuning to others unless a waiver was signed.

To those that want a cheap turbo alternative, there's always the DIY route. I mean if it should be able to be accomplished by a vendor for the various price points that have been mentioned in the past, it shouldn't be all that hard, right?

 

[Elite]

Not that no one is interested... But, a lot of talk with no final product has been done before... So until there is a final product to ship to the public...

 

[KGP]

BTW, there is a bolt-on turbo kit by Cartech, but I have no idea of the price point, nor do I know much about the kit other than it is somewhat of an evolution of the Bell kit. I use the word "evolution" meaning that it is more of a carry-on of the old Bell kit, and not necessarily that is has been improved.

 

[D'Ecosse]

I think the word "safely" needs to be looked at from a business proposition. With a turbo system being so easy to crank up the boost to, a developer of such a system runs an enormous risk to their enterprise should they make available a kit to bolt-on to an OEM engine configuration. NSX owners can whine and claim "but I wouldn't do this or that," but the stark reality is that the developer is faced with increased risks that could present them with monetary consequences. If I were a turbo developer, there is no way I would offer a kit to be bolted on to an NSX engine with OEM pistons. In fact, I have told a developer the same thing (as if my advice matters ). I would also not leave the tuning to others unless a waiver was signed.

I believe I already made that observation Gene, rather than just the excerpted quote from the other respondents' sub-quotes

One "issue" (if that's the right word) with turbo's is they are so easy to turn up the wick, that I could understand vendors' reluctance to make kits readily available w/o an associated engine build to accommodate higher boost levels. That obviously transposes to a significant incremental cost.

 

[KGP]

I believe I already made that observation Gene, rather than just the excerpted quote from the other respondents' sub-quotes

Indeed. I was really responding to jcjcf1's post, as it appreared he might not have taken that part of your message into consideration. Just re-enforcing what you said with different wording I guess. Also, I had started to write a post earlier today, where you then beat me to the punch, and I just had to share my .02.

 

[D'Ecosse]

.... and I just had to share my .02.

Sorry, wasn't meant to sound like I already said that so what was the value - just wasn't sure if you missed that caveat from my original complete post.
What is they say about "great minds think alike?" ..... but then, I believe there's another part to that ...forget what it is though

Oh .... I think you have a lot more than $0.02 worth of knowledge on this topic!

 

[jcjcf1]

Is it not possible for a manufacturer of a kit to limit the boost in such a way that any alteration would be evident to anyone familiar with the system - a proprietary "black box" controller of some type?

 

[D'Ecosse]

Is it not possible for a manufacturer of a kit to limit the boost in such a way that any alteration would be evident to anyone familiar with the system - a proprietary "black box" controller of some type?

It would be so easy to disable/replace/work-around not worth the effort

 

[KGP]

Is it not possible for a manufacturer of a kit to limit the boost in such a way that any alteration would be evident to anyone familiar with the system - a proprietary "black box" controller of some type?

There is indeed a way to limit boost, but it does come with draw-backs. I originally had it in my first post, but thought it was getting a bit off topic: The Motec ECU's have the capability of being "locked," making it possible for the developer to install and tune the system, then locking the ECU before delivery, making alterations to the map unavailable to the car owner unless permission is granted via codes that the tuner has in his possesion. One draw-back is fairly obvious in that you must rely on only one tuner. Another draw-back is the price of the Motec units. Even then, I suppose there is a possibility of the ECU code being hacked. That said, the turbo is still faced with the cold hard fact that the cast pistons are a higher risk, no matter which way you slice it. Just ask yourself if you had the choice of forged pistons over cast, should price not be an issue at all, what would you choose? That answer is looked the same way by the developer from a business risk proposition.

 

[jcjcf1]

KGP - thanks for your comments. But is the manufacturer liability issue really that much different than for all the other aftermarket tuners of the multi-thousands of other Japanese cars? And what about Comptech? They must believe the business risk is acceptable.

I would love to have your FX500 system, but it just seems like overkill (and too expensive) for my intended use of street only.

 

[KGP]

KGP - thanks for your comments. But is the manufacturer liability issue really that much different than for all the other aftermarket tuners of the multi-thousands of other Japanese cars? And what about Comptech? They must believe the business risk is acceptable.

I would love to have your FX500 system, but it just seems like overkill (and too expensive) for my intended use of street only.

The NSX world is a small one, so anything that turns out to have a negative impact might ruin a vendor, where it might not be the same for other cars. To re-build an NSX engine is not the same as a Supra or Civic, etc. Our engines are big bucks, as are many other components within our cars. That equates to increased risk, plain and simple. Comptech? You'd have to ask them, but I suspect one of the reasons their units are priced as they are is for the very reasons that have been stated here. They're not fools, and know full well the inherent risks.

FX500 overkill? I suspect everyone might have a different opinion, and I respect that. But I'll bet that if you went for a ride in my car you'd be saying "I want that."

 

[jcjcf1]

FX500 overkill? I suspect everyone might have a different opinion, and I respect that. But I'll bet that if you went for a ride in my car you'd be saying "I want that."

I'm ABSOLUTELY sure you're right about that. But the cost will probably keep me from getting it. . . . . .probably.

 

[KGP]

Oh .... I think you have a lot more than $0.02 worth of knowledge on this topic!

One more thing on that note: What I post is almost all from a consumer view point, having done some due diligence of FI for an NSX (although sometimes I try to look at things from a vendor perspective, as I did in this thread). I'm certainly no sjs, and don't want my posts taken as having come from someone who is all-knowing, because that simply isn't the case. I hope what I share has some kind of value to those in our community, but I honestly have no idea if it does. I just don't want people to think I'm some kind of expert, because I'm far from that.

 

[jcjcf1]

Anyone with the Cartech turbo care to comment on their experience with this kit? In searching, I noticed several posts earlier this year but nothing lately.
Is this a real option or not?

 

[mikeh]

Ok, I've searched the FAQ and past posts on this subject and may have missed something pertinent, but why are there no reasonably priced turbo kits for the NSX?

The NSX market is small and comprised of mostly non-technical, non-DYI people who have already proven, by owning an NSX, that they are willing to spend the extra $$$ for an old car because there is just something about it which floats their boat (myself included).

The people who are in the NSX 'industry' who have the ability and resources to develop a FI kit are few and far between. Thus, the ones who DO develop the kits can charge whatever the market will allow-- which in the case of the current NSX market is more than probably any other import market. The people who then develop and sell the 'expensive' NSX FI kits are already swamped enough with interest that they provide sub-par customer support, so why would they want to do it even CHEAPER?

No offense to the vendors/tuners who develop/sell/install these kits, but I don't believe they are the super-savy business types that create multi-million dollar corporations with considerations for long-term brand growth or customer loyalty. They are enthusiasts turned entrepreneurs, can you blame them?

The great thing about this type of 'product' and 'market' is that if you don't like your current vendor options or believe there is some niche market you can dominate, there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING stopping you from doing it yourself (either the product itself or being a vendor, besides research and money. nothing in this world is free).

Cheers,

-mike

 

[lowellhigh79]

How many F355 or Modenas are FI'd? Very few. These are similar class cars to our NSX in both demographics, layout of the car, production numbers and H/O, high rev NA engines (Our transverse engine layout makes it even harder, and there is no space next to the firewall).

Layout includes issues with mid engine design. Besides cramped quarters, finding a spot to put one large or two smaller turbos that will sit higher than the oil pan isn't easy while trying to keep plumbing as short as possible. In addition, consider placing either an air to air IC that will either move enough air somewhere on or under the engine bay, or an air/ liquid IC with all the plumbing, pump and radiator placement issues.

EMS: covered already. The stock ecu is very hard to trick in the long run.

Motor: Converting a high rev/ open deck/ NA motor to a reinforced block costs more than beefing up a stock FI'd block or a motor with a closed deck. Just ask owners of the NA 300ZX when they tried to FI it later. Much easier and with bigger gains if they started with a TT 300ZX.

Driveline: Intended for high rev/ low torque application. This is or will be the area where development will lag behind the hp/torque coming from current or up coming FI'd systems.