Who's city has gone smokeless?

[Mike O]

Well...back on the subject for a minute.

I live in Nashville and went to Vanderbilt University, but grew up in Kentucky and have UK season basketball tickets. Go Cats!!!

Lexington, Kentucky is now banning smoking in public places, and my wife and I are very grateful for this. Until recently, going to a UK game at Rupp Arena (which is tied together with the Hyatt Regency) meant having to wade through at least 1000 people smoking in the lobby to get to our seats at the game, and smelling like crap afterwards.

Now, we can enjoy ourselves, drink one of those $6 beers before the game and not have to worry about inhaling someone elses cancer stick while we are there.

It's great that Kentucky, which is the 2nd biggest producer of tobacco, is doing this!

 

[zahntech]

I wouldn't be suprised if California makes Cigarettes ilegal alltogether..

 

[satan_srv]

Satan, apply that same standard to your vehicle emissions. Do you have a right to pollute the air that not only you breathe? Do you have a right to destroy the enviornment with deadly fumes in public places, in a global arena? If it was truly about public health, there are far more devasting fumes coming from the back of your vehicle than the occasional smoker that passes by. Does your right to drive outweight the rest of the world's public health?

You're right, but on the same token, the state is trying to balance the need for transportation, with the environmental/health impacts, right? They can't outright ban the use of fossil fuels because of the extreme economic impact alone. They are trying to balance and eventually move to alternative energy, especially as it becomes more viable. On the same vein with smoking, they are trying to balance the need, with the desired end result. I just feel that smoking has a lot less of a leg to stand on, compared with transportation. They are already viable alternatives to auto pollution too (mass-transit) while smoking, the only alternative is to 'not'. If there were less harmful alternatives to smoking, that you could convince people to actually do..I'm sure the gov't would promote that as well.

Also, I think I posted the link that on straight comparison, cigarette smoke is 10 times as polluting as diesel. I'm sure that's by volume, and I concede a lot more people drive than smoke

 

[satan_srv]

That sir is your opinion. In my opinion cigarettes have a purpose too. Although it may not be as clear as transportation, cigarettes help alleviate stress, anger, etc.

It's just an illusion..smoking increases heart rate, blood pressure etc..it's just the drugs that make you feel like it's alleviating your issues, but it's just masking them. Similar to lots of drugs..like ecstasy for instance you feel like a million bucks but it's killing central nervous system cells and a couple days later you will hit a massive wall when your depressed system actually realizes what's going on.

People can smoke, that's their deal, but I totally respect the gov't's aim to limit public exposure, just like them targeting youth to get less kids to start.

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

My data point is that being a smoker of many years, I've often see all sides of the equation- particularly the eccentric personalities in many regions and the changes in attitude over the last ten years towards smoking. I did eventually kick the habit for good, but did it on my own accord, not at the behest of anyone else.

In Pennsylvania, it was a total non-issue to me growing up. Rather like Virgina. Yet, moving from the east coast to Seattle, I quickly found that casually enjoying a ciggy on the street outside of a building is some sort of taboo self victimizing ritual here that requires public support and immediate intervention. When I did so partake, I did so knowingly undertaking the risk of having the DARE rapid response team show up.

I suppose I've never been able to figure out how Western WA in particular manages to spin itself as democratic and pride itself on acceptance... when it is quite likely about the most socially conservative place hell bent on modifying other people’s behaviors I've ever had the unfortunate opportunity to live.

I'll never forget one day, not long after I moved out here… too my amazement, driving down 85th street in Kirkland- in my shiny new Corvette C5 with a ciggy in hand - I had some girl yelling at the top of her lungs at me at speed trying to pace me in her VW Golf "You Gas Guzzling Smoking Pig!!!”

Wow. Welcome to Seattle I thought.

The drama quickly unfolded on a day to day basis, even at work. We later had every other person and bicyclist coming and going complaining about smokers being too close to the outside doorway for their liking. That’s how it always starts. They act like you were exhaling in their cubicle all day. Then it was the ash trays outside smelled fouled and didn't look neat. The drama of enduring that unsightly sand. Later along with many firms smokers were relegated to designated areas like the garage only. Then that was a work place safety issue. Then it was raising Health Care Premiums. I think I actually had my boss urge me to quit in a 1:1 as well which I’m sure you can imagine the outcome of that pleasant discussion.

Can you really escape at home? I once had a neighbor actually knocking on my door at 1AM saying he could smell smoke four stories up and he thought it was me as I was the only smoker he knew and it was a public health issue and was going to tell the HOA my back window must have been open. That was apparently the right thing to do because in his words if I got fined enough it would be a deterrent for me to stop smoking.

Right...

I think you can prance around all the little details as much as you like. It's not about the details, its just fuel to a fire. However, my belief in the end is that the smoking ban is but one small part of a larger pattern of behavior that I've noticed to be very pervasive in populated metropolitan areas, especially here on the west coast.

I've never understood why in a free society, so many people feel the need to commit so much of their personal time and resources towards doing everything they can to modify or change other people's behaviors that in most cases don't even affect them. Instead of adapting to and adjusting towards circumstances they instead go off trying to make a case why society needs change to appease them. It's the American Psycho mentality watered down main stream with a good foot hold in modern case law. It’s like the bible slingers of the 80’s on TV except now armed with Ecology degrees from the University of Phoenix.

It's unfortunate to me in- that so many immigrants have come here to live the American dream... a life in freedom because they know what not having that freedom really means. Yet by the same measure there are those natives that would give it all away because they somehow see themselves as the informers of modern society with the “public interest” always at their side. I see the behavior in a simpler light, its called pure selfishness. The ultimate form, whereas one is so self-absorbed as to think that others need to change their behaviors to suit to them.

I’ll expand on that conclusion with some prime NW hot topics that all seem eerily familiar; often reminding me of a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum...

I don't like smoking. = The great beautiful healthy NW. No one should smoke.
I don't like a smoking work environment = No work environment should be smoking.
I don't like development = CAO- No one should cut down trees or build on their land.
I don't like cars = Gas should cost more, no drilling by moose, ride a bike or metro bus to work.
I don’t like roads = You should all sit in traffic and not expand 405.
I don't like Bush = The war in Iraq is wrong.
I don't like abortion = No one should have the legal right to have an abortion.
I don't like plane noise = Stop expanding airport flight capacity over Medina
I don't like night clubs = Don't zone, increase taxes, and further restrict availability
I don't like new hydro/nuclear power = The salmon migration patterns are in danger.
I don't like gaming = Outlaw gambling it can lead to ruined lives.
I don't like godless souls = You need my religions revision of redemption.
I don't like NASCAR = It leads to speeding, burning leaded fuels, and ferry traffic.
I don't like motorists on cell phones = Ticket all motorists who use phones.
I don't like rich people = Raise property taxes and expand social services

As can be said, there is an argument for everything. I wouldn't get immersed in the details, its all just more fuel on the fire. What's really relevant to me is the more basic ulterior motivation behind the facade. In most cases, it's pretty obvious, and hardly altruistic. In fact, I think about the only thing a lot of these people do like is making the rest of us miserable.

 

[SilverStone05]

With all due respect, I have to disagree with your position on smoking ban(especially in bars). Why should the bar re-evaluate their value? Why shouldn't the individual contemplating on going to certain bar evaluate their value? If bar is smoking allowed, then the individual has to decide whether to go to that bar. He/She certainly has the choice.

Same as you, I am also a law abiding/tax-paying Candian citizen, and one that happens to light up a cigarette from time to time. You may not be aware, but price of the cigarette in Canada are approaching or exceeding $10. Greater than 50% of that is the tax imposed on my filthy habit, because the state deems it is the cost of the damage to the society incurred by smoking. I am definately fine with that. In purely economical stand point, if my habit caused society certain problems, I am willing to pay to fix it through tax on the cigarette.
I understand that most of you do not smoke, and has negative view of it and I agree. However, the choice should be in the hands of people who decides to smoke as long as they are responsible. As is common in any group of people(be it a group of NSXers or smokers), most of us are responsible in what we choose to do and only few of us are so-called "bad apples." Case in point, I smoke on my way to work in the morning. In my walk few blocks to the company building I try my best in staying out of people's way, respecting your right to not inhale the fume. I put it out and throw it in the garbage can near the building so it wouldn't look messy near the entrance. Should I NOT be allowed to smoke even if I do not cause any harm to the others?
If not, then why should some of you turn blind eye in people who decides to forego installing or by-passing catalyst in the exhaust? IT certainly has environmental effect as your exhaust is literally exuming toxic gas in to the air and further causes what some people would regard as noise polution(I am not picking on people who decides to let their NSX's beautiful exhaust roar and breath freely, this is just an example.)
What about the cost to the society due to obesity? It certainly costs Canadians billions of dollars every year(or so newspapers say) in health care, and obese people are NOT paying obesity TAX to cover the cost, are they? In that case, then, Chocolate should be banned, fast-foot should be banned and all the food that has more than 1% fat should be banned, shouldn't they? Further, let's imagine an extreme situation where yourself or your significant other is 8 month pregnant and need go somewhere on public transit, and all the 2 person benches are taken by obese people who takes both space so you/your SO can not find a seat. Then is this considered harmful or costly to the society? I would certainly consider it harmful to the health of my SO. So then obese people should be banned.(I'm not saying they should be. I respect their choice in lifestyle as long as they don't cause my family direct harm.)

So then, What the hell should we as a society do?
I think a little understand and respect for other people's choice would go a long way, in my humble opinion.

Sitting by an obese person does not harm my health. (unless of course they are sitting next to me in a plane in the coach section :biggrin: )
Also...obesity is not just the cause of eating poorly. Obesity for the most part comes about by the lack of activity. You'll find that you can eat what you want as long as you keep up the activity to support it. And people being large doesn't harm others' health. It only harms the person who has made the choice to be large. I would also go so far as to say that it has an effect on tax dollars allocated toward health care. But it doesn't harm my health. So go on eat white castles at 4am and go directly to bed. Just make sure that you don't smoke next to me and throw your cigarette butt on the floor.

 

[MJK]

Are we certain we want to further encourage legislation that champions a tyranny of the masses?

Nope, but welcome to America. Government by the lowest common denominator.

 

[zahntech]

I suppose I've never been able to figure out how Western WA in particular manages to spin itself as democratic and pride itself on acceptance... when it is quite likely about the most socially conservative place hell bent on modifying other people’s behaviors I've ever had the unfortunate opportunity to live.

I'll never forget one day, not long after I moved out here… too my amazement, driving down 85th street in Kirkland- in my shiny new Corvette C5 with a ciggy in hand - I had some girl yelling at the top of her lungs at me at speed trying to pace me in her VW Golf "You Gas Guzzling Smoking Pig!!!”

Wow. Welcome to Seattle I thought.




I’ll expand on that conclusion with some prime NW hot topics that all seem eerily familar; often reminding me of a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum...

I don't like smoking. = The great beautiful NW. No one should smoke.
I don't like a smoking work environment = No work environment should be smoking.
I don't like development = CAO- No one should cut down trees or build on their land.
I don't like cars = Gas should cost more, no drilling by moose, ride a bike to work.
I don’t like roads = You should all sit in traffic and not expand 405.
I don't like Bush = The war in Iraq is wrong.
I don't like abortion = No one should have the legal right to have an abortion.
I don't like plane noise = Stop expanding airport flight capacity over Medina
I don't like night clubs = Don't zone, increase taxes, and further restrict availability
I don't like new hydro/nuclear power = The salmon migration patterns are in danger.
I don't like gaming = Gambling leads to ruined lives.
I don't like godless souls = You need my religions revision of redemption
I don't like NASCAR = It leads to speeding, burning leaded fuels, and ferry traffic.
I don't like motorists on cell phones = Ticket all motorists who use phones.
I don't like rich people = Raise taxes and expand social services

.

John, I think your definition of "social conservative" may be a little off here, the masses in the seattle area are "social liberals" they condemn any behavior that they don't like, If you were driving down the street in a Pink VW Bug Convertible and wearing a Dress, she would have been waving and saying "Nice Gay pride Buddy!"...Seattle is in No Way "Conservative"....your list here is a typical list of Enviro freak whackjob agenda...The Liberals here are running everybody's lives just the way they want to, banning smoking is just the tip of the iceberg....

 

[SilverStone05]

Right...
I see the behavior in a simpler light, its called pure selfishness. The ultimate form, whereas one is so self-absorbed as to think that others need to change their behaviors to suit to them.

The definition of selfishness is doing something with no regard as to the effect on other people.

The only people being selfish are the people who think its okay to HARM others along with themselves simply because they don't have the self control to smoke where it won't affect anyone else. Your rights are more important than the overall health of the population? Shame on you.

As can be said, there is an argument for everything. I wouldn't get immersed in the details, its all just more fuel on the fire. What's really relevant to me is the more basic ulterior motivation behind the passad. In most cases, it's pretty obvious, and hardly altruistic. In fact, I think about the only thing a lot of these people do like is making the rest of us miserable.

The only thing making me miserable is that awful burning smoke being inhaled through my nose and sucked deep in my lungs where it can start killing my lung tissue. Oh, not to mention the awfully pungent smell laced in my sweater and my hair. (Two showers and a trip to the cleaners MIGHT fix this) Add to it the eyesore of butts lining the gutters from people too lazy to dispose of their trash properly. How can you condone this?

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

John, I think your definition of "social conservative" may be a little off here, the masses in the seattle area are "social liberals" they condemn any behavior that they don't like, If you were driving down the street in a Pink VW Bug Convertible and wearing a Dress, she would have been waving and saying "Nice Gay pride Buddy!"...Seattle is in No Way "Conservative"....your list here is a typical list of Enviro freak whackjob agenda...The Liberals here are running everybody's lives just the way they want to, banning smoking is just the tip of the iceberg....

To me, condeming & curtaling behaviors you don't like or agree with to me is ultimately being "conservative". I think of it rather like the early puritans or extreme religious conservatives in the middle ages except now with a new range of social and religious agendas.

If that's called being socially "liberal" several hundred years later because of its broader political stance- then sure... I guess it's whatever term they feel is politically correct or floats their boat.

I digress, edging more toward the libertarian ideals myself, in a room full of metro seattlites I am likely about the farthest thing from a classic liberal environmentalist you'll ever find.

I recently startled a room of 100 on-lookers leaving it utterly jawless by asserting that due to the hot housing market it would be a great idea to build a bridge across the sound to western wa and build condos in the Olympic National Park as it had great views.

 

[zahntech]

I used to work in downtown Seattle, I was forced to work on late 70s and early 80s Hydrocarbon spewing carbureted gas guzzling Land cruisers and on almost every one there was a Sierra club sticker on the back, I got a real kick out of the one I had that had a "Earth first" sticker on it.......

Different Civil liberties are important to Different people...take the ACLU for example they rarely take on a case to support a gun owners rights....but they are happy to support a persons First amendment right to write a book about having sex with children....smokers are a very small part of our society at this time in US history ....It wont be long before smoking is looked upon like leprosy..

 

[NsSeX]

My data point is that being a smoker of many years, I've often see all sides of the equation- particularly the eccentric personalities in many regions and the changes in attitude over the last ten years towards smoking. I did eventually kick the habit for good, but did it on my own accord, not at the behest of anyone else.

In Pennsylvania, it was a total non-issue to me growing up. Rather like Virgina. Yet, moving from the east coast to Seattle, I quickly found that casually enjoying a ciggy on the street outside of a building is some sort of taboo self victimizing ritual here that requires public support and immediate intervention. When I did so partake, I did so knowingly undertaking the risk of having the DARE rapid response team show up.

I suppose I've never been able to figure out how Western WA in particular manages to spin itself as democratic and pride itself on acceptance... when it is quite likely about the most socially conservative place hell bent on modifying other people’s behaviors I've ever had the unfortunate opportunity to live.

I'll never forget one day, not long after I moved out here… too my amazement, driving down 85th street in Kirkland- in my shiny new Corvette C5 with a ciggy in hand - I had some girl yelling at the top of her lungs at me at speed trying to pace me in her VW Golf "You Gas Guzzling Smoking Pig!!!”

Wow. Welcome to Seattle I thought.

The drama quickly unfolded on a day to day basis, even at work. We later had every other person and bicyclist coming and going complaining about smokers being too close to the outside doorway for their liking. That’s how it always starts. They act like you were exhaling in their cubicle all day. Then it was the ash trays outside smelled fouled and didn't look neat. The drama of enduring that unsightly sand. Later along with many firms smokers were relegated to designated areas like the garage only. Then that was a work place safety issue. Then it was raising Health Care Premiums. I think I actually had my boss urge me to quit in a 1:1 as well which I’m sure you can imagine the outcome of that pleasant discussion.

Can you really escape at home? I once had a neighbor actually knocking on my door at 1AM saying he could smell smoke four stories up and he thought it was me as I was the only smoker he knew and it was a public health issue and was going to tell the HOA my back window must have been open. That was apparently the right thing to do because in his words if I got fined enough it would be a deterrent for me to stop smoking.

Right...

I think you can prance around all the little details as much as you like. It's not about the details, its just fuel to a fire. However, my belief in the end is that the smoking ban is but one small part of a larger pattern of behavior that I've noticed to be very pervasive in populated metropolitan areas, especially here on the west coast.

I've never understood why in a free society, so many people feel the need to commit so much of their personal time and resources towards doing everything they can to modify or change other people's behaviors that in most cases don't even affect them. Instead of adapting to and adjusting towards circumstances they instead go off trying to make a case why society needs change to appease them. It's the American Psycho mentality watered down main stream with a good foot hold in modern case law. It’s like the bible slingers of the 80’s on TV except now armed with Ecology degrees from the University of Phoenix.

It's unfortunate to me in- that so many immigrants have come here to live the American dream... a life in freedom because they know what not having that freedom really means. Yet by the same measure there are those natives that would give it all away because they somehow see themselves as the informers of modern society with the “public interest” always at their side. I see the behavior in a simpler light, its called pure selfishness. The ultimate form, whereas one is so self-absorbed as to think that others need to change their behaviors to suit to them.

I’ll expand on that conclusion with some prime NW hot topics that all seem eerily familar; often reminding me of a 5 year old throwing a temper tantrum...

I don't like smoking. = The great beautiful healthy NW. No one should smoke.
I don't like a smoking work environment = No work environment should be smoking.
I don't like development = CAO- No one should cut down trees or build on their land.
I don't like cars = Gas should cost more, no drilling by moose, ride a bike or metro bus to work.
I don’t like roads = You should all sit in traffic and not expand 405.
I don't like Bush = The war in Iraq is wrong.
I don't like abortion = No one should have the legal right to have an abortion.
I don't like plane noise = Stop expanding airport flight capacity over Medina
I don't like night clubs = Don't zone, increase taxes, and further restrict availability
I don't like new hydro/nuclear power = The salmon migration patterns are in danger.
I don't like gaming = Outlaw gambling it can lead to ruined lives.
I don't like godless souls = You need my religions revision of redemption.
I don't like NASCAR = It leads to speeding, burning leaded fuels, and ferry traffic.
I don't like motorists on cell phones = Ticket all motorists who use phones.
I don't like rich people = Raise property taxes and expand social services

As can be said, there is an argument for everything. I wouldn't get immersed in the details, its all just more fuel on the fire. What's really relevant to me is the more basic ulterior motivation behind the passad. In most cases, it's pretty obvious, and hardly altruistic. In fact, I think about the only thing a lot of these people do like is making the rest of us miserable.

lol John:biggrin:
I totally agree with your view(s) of seattle-ites!

 

[mindretch]

lol John:biggrin:
I totally agree with your view(s) of seattle-ites!

Second that! But in the spirit of forum harmony, I think Seattle should send Columbus Tim Eiman, ELF, and Texas A&M.

 

[SCS2k]

"privilage" is spelled "privilege".

"fassad" is spelled "facade":tongue:

 

[john@johnhudakracing]

"privilage" is spelled "privilege".

"fassad" is spelled "facade":tongue:

// Edited. Ahh two errors. What can I say, everyone knows that
// programmers can't spell, most of us have limited exposure to English,
// using it only in those rare code comments. :tongue:

 

[Patdeisa]

I'll toss my two pennies in as well to this good argument. I do have a strong anti-smoking bias (and I know it's just my opinion, right or not).

I have a lot of general allergies, but I'm particularly sensitive to cigarette smoke. Fortunately, my tolerance to certain allergens is growing, including smoke, but it's still to the point where traveling outside of California is sometimes painful. Here's a few of my experiences:

Nightclub: As a teenager, the local nightclub would have a teen night once a month or so. It was before the no-smoking laws took affect in California, and it was my first time to a club before. There were teens smoking everywhere inside with a constant haze throughout the club. I had to leave early that night, as I wasn't feeling well. I ended up staying in bed with a fever that lasted 5 days and coughing up black mucus for two weeks. Not too attractive to the girls I went out dancing with...

Hotel: I stayed at one of the older Vegas hotels just off of the strip 2 years ago. The non-smoking rooms still smelled of smoke and I had to enter the casino area to check in. After staying for a night, I ended up with a fever for the next 3 days, along with accompanying coughing and dry eyes.

Sidewalks outside of Bars: There's still people smoking near entrances to bars or buildings here in California. Usually one smoker is just an irritant, but I'm sensative enough that two smokers (or one smoker having two cigarettes with one burning out on the ground) is sometimes enough to dry up my eyes and make me start coughing for 10 seconds or so.

I know I'm a minority, but when people say that smoking in public places is their right and doesn't really affect others, as far as I'm concerned it's bs. The smoking laws (or lack thereof) do affect people and their freedom to visit places. Being in SoCal, I love the fact that Vegas is close, but I can't take any of the cheap offers from the older hotels since I have problems in their non-smoking rooms, not to mention having to wade through the smoke infested casinos to get to the rooms. I've never had a problem in the higher end places (Mandalay Bay, Venetian, etc.) since they seem to have good ventilation units and not have smoke imbedded in the carpets yet, but the smoking limits which hotels/casinos I can visit.

However, I'm not without a heart. If someone wants to have a cigar club, then that's their business. I only ask that they limit smoking to inside only and that their ventilation system filters 99+% of the smoke out of the air before it's exhausted outside. If people want to smoke in their cars or at home, just don't throw the butts out the window. But in the case of any general business whose primary business is other than smoking cigars or cigarettes, I'm glad that the laws are there. I can actually go to a bar or out to a club, and not have to pay for it for the next week...

 

[Oyagi]

I live in Ottawa, the first city in North America to go smoke free. That was back in 1999. I love it.

When I see people smoking in front of me, polluting my airspace with their carcinogens, I have absolutely no reservations about letting out a big, loud, juicy fart in thei direction.

 

[zahntech]

I know I'm a minority, but when people say that smoking in public places is their right and doesn't really affect others, as far as I'm concerned it's bs. The smoking laws (or lack thereof) do affect people and their freedom to visit places. Being in SoCal, I love the fact that Vegas is close, but I can't take any of the cheap offers from the older hotels since I have problems in their non-smoking rooms, not to mention having to wade through the smoke infested casinos to get to the rooms. I've never had a problem in the higher end places (Mandalay Bay, Venetian, etc.) since they seem to have good ventilation units and not have smoke imbedded in the carpets yet, but the smoking limits which hotels/casinos I can visit.
QUOTE]

Welcome to Vegas!...here is your flaming bag of dog crap!!

 

[Carguy!]

I live in Michigan and own a few bar / restaurants so I have a vested interest in this debate. Michigan currently doesn't have a ban on smoking in bars or restaurants. I don't work at the bars so my experience is second hand, kind of like the smoke that I inhale when I visit.

I don't smoke, never have and feel it is a horrible habit and wouldn't hang around with anyone who does smoke. We allow smoking at our bars and a good percentage of our customers smoke. If we banned smoking without a government mandate we would alienate a huge percentage of our customers. A lot of them that don't smoke hang out with others that do, so if we didn't allow it I would bet we would lose 50% of our customers. We might gain a small percentage of that back from people who wouldn't normally come in because smoking wasn't allowed.

I feel if the Michigan government banned smoking for all of Michigan it wouldn't hurt our business much because they wouldn't have another bar they could go to to smoke.

In the interim, we have installed large smoke eaters and have a large non-smoking area to try and make it as comfortable as possible for those who still have some sense.:smile:

 

[NeoNSX]

Sydney was going to go smokeless, until <B>AU_NSX</B> moved in with his NSX ....now the harbour bridge is covered by a dense cloud of burned rubber & brakes, except for days when he's overseas.

 

[satan_srv]

I feel if the Michigan government banned smoking for all of Michigan it wouldn't hurt our business much because they wouldn't have another bar they could go to to smoke.

The main issue is the location you have...see you can smoke on licensed patios..so bars that have these types of venues can potentially be more profitable in the short to medium term as the smokers get annoyed and only go to places that they can still smoke without walking out of the establishment. At least here in toronto a lot of clubs have gone to great lengths to develop convered patios for this purpose..but if you don't have the real estate, you just don't have it.

Eventually though, since it's become so commonplace, people go where they want, and don't really consider 'can you smoke there' as much. Still a factor for some people though.

 

[zahntech]

I feel if the Michigan government banned smoking for all of Michigan it wouldn't hurt our business much because they wouldn't have another bar they could go to to smoke.
:

This right here says a lot about why "market forces" do not make bar/restaurant owners make no smoking rules....nobody wants to be first.."are you gonna jump?...I'm not gonna jump" no business owner is going to reduce their profits even just for a short time to make their place smoke free..If the law requires everybody to do so then nobody has to "jump first"..

 

[jimmycinla]

Del Mar, Ca (San Diego county) has just passed a ban on smoking on beaches and all parks.
Soon to be all public areas....

"The ban now includes any beach or park, access point such as parking lots, roads, pathways, seawalls and any other public access areas directly adjacent to beaches or parks. As worded in the new smoking ordinance, the ban includes any smoking, burning or carrying of a lighted cigarette, cigar or pipe in any of those areas.
What is sure to raise some eyebrows, at least from smokers, is the idea to extend the ban to all city streets and sidewalks. In essence, this would ban smoking in all public areas of the city."
"In passing the first ordinance, Del Mar joined a growing list of California cities that have banned smoking at parks and beaches, including Solana Beach, Manhattan Beach, Newport Beach, San Francisco, Santa Cruz and Santa Monica."

-j-

 

[nuccaJB]

Car exhaust vs. cigarette smoke? Which is worse? I am going to sit in my garage with my car running for hour today and sit in my garage smoking for an hour tomorrow. Then the day after I will report back. J/K
Sometimes it is fun to stir the pot. Now all this debating is stressing me out, I am going for a drive and a smoke!:tongue:

 

[satan_srv]

Car exhaust vs. cigarette smoke? Which is worse? I am going to sit in my garage with my car running for hour today and sit in my garage smoking for an hour tomorrow. Then the day after I will report back. J/K
Sometimes it is fun to stir the pot. Now all this debating is stressing me out, I am going for a drive and a smoke!:tongue:

LOL

you might want to do the smoking test first.