what's the world coming to when...
- Thread starter madfast
- Start date
Dave - you'll be pleased to know that the auction ended w/ a high bid of (drum roll...) $28,115! Guess you "lowballed" him to the grand tune of a hundred bucks - LOL!!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1853079584
timbo,
hehehe that's funny.
hehehe that's funny.
My suspicion is that cars on eBay tend to sell for less than market value because of a general uneasiness that a car may not be represented accurately there. This is just my gut feel and I could be wrong.
If I were selling an NSX and it really was in mint condition, I would put it up for sale in the NSX-specific venues (like NSXprime) where the ad would be seen by true enthusiasts who would appreciate the condition. (These venues are also where word would get around about a car that's being misrepresented.)
You can often tell when a car is being sold by an enthusiast, which IMO is the best indication that the car is absolutely perfect - that it was owned by someone who knows what is needed for a car to be perfect. You can tell because it should specify whether all required scheduled maintenance and common preventive repairs have been performed. For example, on an ad for a '92 NSX, I would expect it to indicate (right in the ad) whether it's in the snap ring range, if so then whether the transmission case and ring have been replaced, whether the timing belt and water pump have been replaced, whether the window regulators have been replaced or the fix-it thingies installed, condition of the engine hatch and trunk struts, etc. Without this information, I would assume that this work has not been done, the owner is probably not even aware of the need to do the work, and the car has not been well maintained. Just my O.
If I were selling an NSX and it really was in mint condition, I would put it up for sale in the NSX-specific venues (like NSXprime) where the ad would be seen by true enthusiasts who would appreciate the condition. (These venues are also where word would get around about a car that's being misrepresented.)
You can often tell when a car is being sold by an enthusiast, which IMO is the best indication that the car is absolutely perfect - that it was owned by someone who knows what is needed for a car to be perfect. You can tell because it should specify whether all required scheduled maintenance and common preventive repairs have been performed. For example, on an ad for a '92 NSX, I would expect it to indicate (right in the ad) whether it's in the snap ring range, if so then whether the transmission case and ring have been replaced, whether the timing belt and water pump have been replaced, whether the window regulators have been replaced or the fix-it thingies installed, condition of the engine hatch and trunk struts, etc. Without this information, I would assume that this work has not been done, the owner is probably not even aware of the need to do the work, and the car has not been well maintained. Just my O.
You can hardly claim a non-sale as "vindication".
NetViper can tell us what you'll get for that $30K...
NetViper can tell us what you'll get for that $30K...
Originally posted by madfast:
timbo,
hehehe that's funny.
If you're still looking, here's a '91 with 57k miles. They're asking $28,900.
http://www.luxurycars.com/cgi-bin/imports1/am000792
[This message has been edited by nd4spd (edited 28 August 2002).]
That, Mr. Lud, is a sucker and there are more than one born every day. To those who keep their NSX for 11 years and plan their retirement on its sale someday, I say, wake up to reality. Any new car (especially a freshened up model) that loses $15K while still sitting in a gleaming showroom with no miles on it, is not going to keep half its value after 11 years ! Maserati's, Mangustas and Lotus Esprits do better than that. So for all you newcomers to the NSX experience, don't be suckered into paying too much for the privilege of owning this wonderful car. Do your homework, stick to the "no more than $30K for a good 91-92" and you'll be rewarded with a great ride.
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Actually, Mr. Stramotas, he was very far from a sucker. He was more informed about NSXs than most owners I have met, even at NSX events. He was on the mailing lists, the websites (he found my car listed on the website), and even attended NSXPO.
He had been searching for the right car for many months and had inspected and driven many used NSXs looking for the right one. He had spreadsheets, checklists, the whole deal.
He spent a couple HOURS inspecting every single part of the car. After his thorough inspection and a test drive, he felt my car was worth the extra money and said it was superior to all the other cars he had looked at, including some later model or lower mileage cars with higher prices.
The only sucker would have been me if I had settled for an average price on an above-average car.
He had been searching for the right car for many months and had inspected and driven many used NSXs looking for the right one. He had spreadsheets, checklists, the whole deal.
He spent a couple HOURS inspecting every single part of the car. After his thorough inspection and a test drive, he felt my car was worth the extra money and said it was superior to all the other cars he had looked at, including some later model or lower mileage cars with higher prices.
The only sucker would have been me if I had settled for an average price on an above-average car.
Still a sucker, in fact worse, a sucker with no excuse. To know and love the NSX, to attend events and even be part of the Event of the Century is no indication of business savvy. In fact it tends to blind the buyer when time comes to fork out the $.
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You don't even know how much I sold the car for, yet you are sure the buyer was a sucker.
Hey if you keep saying it, maybe someone will believe it. Maybe I should just start posting "NO CLEAN NSXS SELL FOR UNDER $35K" and when someone replies that they did buy a nice one for less than that, I'll tell them the seller was a sucker and it doesn't count.
Or would that be absurd?
Hey if you keep saying it, maybe someone will believe it. Maybe I should just start posting "NO CLEAN NSXS SELL FOR UNDER $35K" and when someone replies that they did buy a nice one for less than that, I'll tell them the seller was a sucker and it doesn't count.
Or would that be absurd?
I think the opinion really depends on what side of the fence your on. Do you currently own a nsx or are you looking to buy. Owners do not want to see their cars depreciating that much, yet a buyer is always looking for a deal and when they hear that someone bought it for <$30K, they think now all '91/'92 are worth <$30K. That may or may not be true, I should know I just purchase a '91 for <$30K, but I had been looking carefully for 6 months. There were many that I looked at for <$30K but they had issues and you needed to be much more buyer savy. Then there are cars that are asking low to mid $30K and usually they are pretty clean and there is a reason they are asking that. Just look at Ilya's car, asking $33K some would say that is way too over priced, but you know there probably no hidden issues and there will probably be someone willing to pay that and I don't think it would be fair to say they are suckers. The bottom line is the market only can bare what someone is willing to pay. The other thing is that nsx is a rarity in numbers since there are so little being produced and this will somewhat protect it's depreciation.
Paul
Paul
Lud,
With all due respect, your logic is flawed. I said "sucker" based on what you said .(you did say the guy paid over average price, didn't you ?)
I am basing my valuation on what's happening in the real world. Just check your own website ads and follow up with actual sales price information. I've had some experience in business and am on my 52nd car purchase(I'm just an old guy). I just find it amazing how fanatics of a certain marque's manage to distort the real world value of their cars just because they're terrified at the thought of having to sell it some day. There are good 94's selling well under $40K and quite a few good 91's barely making it to $30K. So hang on guys and don't pay a penny over $30K for a good and clean 91.
With all due respect, your logic is flawed. I said "sucker" based on what you said .(you did say the guy paid over average price, didn't you ?)
I am basing my valuation on what's happening in the real world. Just check your own website ads and follow up with actual sales price information. I've had some experience in business and am on my 52nd car purchase(I'm just an old guy). I just find it amazing how fanatics of a certain marque's manage to distort the real world value of their cars just because they're terrified at the thought of having to sell it some day. There are good 94's selling well under $40K and quite a few good 91's barely making it to $30K. So hang on guys and don't pay a penny over $30K for a good and clean 91.
You CAN buy a '91 NSX for under $30K, I have no doubt. The question is, what kind of NSX will it be?
Can you buy one for under $30K with a five-speed, with below-average miles (average for the NSX is about 5K miles per year), with all scheduled maintenance performed on time (this means INCLUDING the timing belt and water pump), with clean title and no major accidents, with the exterior and interior in excellent condition, not in snap ring range (or repaired), and with everything working and no problems whatsoever? Nope. Such a car will cost anywhere from $32K to $35K (or even higher if the mileage is under 20K). NetViper looked for a year for such a car under $30K, but could not find one. He eventually found a car with only a few minor issues for slightly over that amount. His experience is totally consistent with the person who bought Lud's car.
Bottom line: You can buy a '91 NSX for under $30K, but it is going to have issues of one sort or another. You are extremely unlikely to find one that is "perfect".
Disclosure: For those slinging mud regarding reasons for bias, I should note that I am not shopping for an NSX, and I have no intention of selling my NSX for many years to come.
Can you buy one for under $30K with a five-speed, with below-average miles (average for the NSX is about 5K miles per year), with all scheduled maintenance performed on time (this means INCLUDING the timing belt and water pump), with clean title and no major accidents, with the exterior and interior in excellent condition, not in snap ring range (or repaired), and with everything working and no problems whatsoever? Nope. Such a car will cost anywhere from $32K to $35K (or even higher if the mileage is under 20K). NetViper looked for a year for such a car under $30K, but could not find one. He eventually found a car with only a few minor issues for slightly over that amount. His experience is totally consistent with the person who bought Lud's car.
Bottom line: You can buy a '91 NSX for under $30K, but it is going to have issues of one sort or another. You are extremely unlikely to find one that is "perfect".
Disclosure: For those slinging mud regarding reasons for bias, I should note that I am not shopping for an NSX, and I have no intention of selling my NSX for many years to come.
Bboxer - you are the one with the flawed logic: if no-one pays over average price, then no-one can pay under average price either, because the average becomes just a single price that every one pays.
To suggest that there are no differences between any cars in the marketplace is sheer folly - thats why there are a wide range of prices & values. Does one buyer get a bargain because he pays less than average for a less than average car? Was Lud's buyer a sucker for paying over average for what he felt was an over average car? I mean, where exactly are you coming from? Bargains at the point of sale usually end up costing more in the end due to having to spend money on them to bring it up to standard.
I think with an NSX it is much more prudent to pay a little more from a true enthusiast like Lud where the vehicle is more likely to have been meticulously cared for.
Now nothing is cast in stone, but I would wager there are more suckers on the buying end who buy "bargains" than "those who pay over the odds"
When it comes down to it value is in the eye of the beholder & will bear whatever that individual is willing to pay for his particular desire, which may be entirely different from yours. Whats more you know nothing about the intangibles that made that buyer pay over the average price.
In the end, you're happy with your deal, guy who bought Lud's happy with his, so who are you to say you're more happy than him???
[This message has been edited by D'Ecosse (edited 28 August 2002).]
To suggest that there are no differences between any cars in the marketplace is sheer folly - thats why there are a wide range of prices & values. Does one buyer get a bargain because he pays less than average for a less than average car? Was Lud's buyer a sucker for paying over average for what he felt was an over average car? I mean, where exactly are you coming from? Bargains at the point of sale usually end up costing more in the end due to having to spend money on them to bring it up to standard.
I think with an NSX it is much more prudent to pay a little more from a true enthusiast like Lud where the vehicle is more likely to have been meticulously cared for.
Now nothing is cast in stone, but I would wager there are more suckers on the buying end who buy "bargains" than "those who pay over the odds"
When it comes down to it value is in the eye of the beholder & will bear whatever that individual is willing to pay for his particular desire, which may be entirely different from yours. Whats more you know nothing about the intangibles that made that buyer pay over the average price.
In the end, you're happy with your deal, guy who bought Lud's happy with his, so who are you to say you're more happy than him???
[This message has been edited by D'Ecosse (edited 28 August 2002).]
I personally can't stand people who criticize sellers on what they are pricing their vehicles. There are a wide spectrum of what NSXs costs, and if you do your research, you will ALWAYS find one that will suit your expectations or assumptions.
Price of a car is $ amount that is agreed upon by both seller and buyer. Not a penny more and a penny less. If you think something costs too much, you most likely CANNOT afford it. Keep searching and move on!!!
Price of a car is $ amount that is agreed upon by both seller and buyer. Not a penny more and a penny less. If you think something costs too much, you most likely CANNOT afford it. Keep searching and move on!!!
Based on my experience over the last year, it would be very hard to find a 91 with low miles (40-50K) for under 30K. If they are signigicantly lower than 30K, there is most likely a problem or HAS been one.
You can find 91's with 75-90K for under 30K all day long. High mileage is nothing to fear with the NSX. Just make sure to check them out carefully.
IMO, if you truly want a "Pefect" 91 with low miles, you are going to have to pay for it.
I am also starting to see a trend of 94's with 75K selling for 36-38. Generally they are the green ones (the most undesirable color for the NSX -- no offense to the green owners, I think it looks good). If you like green, I would suggest picking up a 94 and not worrying about any problems related to the 91-92 and get the benefits of the 94. (larger wheels, Dual air bag)
You can find 91's with 75-90K for under 30K all day long. High mileage is nothing to fear with the NSX. Just make sure to check them out carefully.
IMO, if you truly want a "Pefect" 91 with low miles, you are going to have to pay for it.
I am also starting to see a trend of 94's with 75K selling for 36-38. Generally they are the green ones (the most undesirable color for the NSX -- no offense to the green owners, I think it looks good). If you like green, I would suggest picking up a 94 and not worrying about any problems related to the 91-92 and get the benefits of the 94. (larger wheels, Dual air bag)
Another point to consider is the value of the various options as well as the general condition & mileage of the vehicles.
Compare these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1853536422
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1853682526
Both similar miles, same year - one is bone stock, maintenance status TBD, price yet TBD but lets say it goes for 25K (doubtful, but lets give you that for a moment - still looks like a 30K car to me)
The other has certified maintenance required at the 90K mark, upgrade mag wheels with new tires, a premium sound system (how much value in that alone!), upgraded suspension, brakes etc etc;
You think you could buy all those features for $6K, Bboxer? Good luck!!!!!!!!
Compare these:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1853536422
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1853682526
Both similar miles, same year - one is bone stock, maintenance status TBD, price yet TBD but lets say it goes for 25K (doubtful, but lets give you that for a moment - still looks like a 30K car to me)
The other has certified maintenance required at the 90K mark, upgrade mag wheels with new tires, a premium sound system (how much value in that alone!), upgraded suspension, brakes etc etc;
You think you could buy all those features for $6K, Bboxer? Good luck!!!!!!!!
I'm not sure listing the mods always works in the seller's favor. Lots of first time buyers want a stock car, even if they think they might mod it later. Mods hint at possible hard use, stock does not.
If I was selling an older NSX the first thing I would do is make damn sure it had original 5 spokers and oval tips. As a buyer, this is my first hint that the car *might* be unmolested.
If you look at the specifics of the "mods" (I actually used the term "features")there is nothing on that particular car to suggest "rode-hard: put-away-wet" The features are predominantly cosmetic (wheels, engine compartment) Maintenance (tires, brakes scheduled etc) & audio upgrade - not a 'charger, chip or even exhaust system in sight.
Quote from the ad - "All modifications to the car are minor and tasteful. The engine is completely stock including airbox and exhaust."
Rather than run from this car it positively screams - "well-maintained by careful, proud owner"
Incidentally, I am not stumping for Ilya - don't know him or ever had any contact with him, this is just a fantastic example of why even a high mileage car can be worth > $30K. Don't understand why no-one is biting on it.
Easy - High mileage and/or a lot of mods (minor mods, but a lot of them). Especially the high mileage.
.
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 29 August 2002).]
[This message has been edited by Andrie Hartanto (edited 29 August 2002).]
bboxer,
I'm on my nearly 100th car in just the past 16 years (several more than the 52 you're at).
If you're generalizing and saying that my 21,700 mile '91 NSX that's never been in the rain, has all the services up to date, and is 99% as nice as my 4 month old '02 Boxster S, is worth is $30,000 max, I want you to find me 6 more, as I'll buy all of them from you, and will give you a nice finder's fee in return.
Sound good to you??? Best of luck...
I'm on my nearly 100th car in just the past 16 years (several more than the 52 you're at).
If you're generalizing and saying that my 21,700 mile '91 NSX that's never been in the rain, has all the services up to date, and is 99% as nice as my 4 month old '02 Boxster S, is worth is $30,000 max, I want you to find me 6 more, as I'll buy all of them from you, and will give you a nice finder's fee in return.
Sound good to you??? Best of luck...
hey tino, (bboxer). thanks again for the tubi. you were a pleasure to work with.
do you think a good condition low mileage 91 is worth more than a average mileage 91? should a buyer pay more for the low mileage 91? what should a buyer pay for a less than 40k mileage 91? should he/she stick with your 'never pay over 30k' philosophy?
lastly, what do you think about the premiums paid for high end exhausts? Is the 1700$ Tubi worth more than the less expensive exhausts? Is that any different than paying more for a low mileage 91nsx?
do you think a good condition low mileage 91 is worth more than a average mileage 91? should a buyer pay more for the low mileage 91? what should a buyer pay for a less than 40k mileage 91? should he/she stick with your 'never pay over 30k' philosophy?
lastly, what do you think about the premiums paid for high end exhausts? Is the 1700$ Tubi worth more than the less expensive exhausts? Is that any different than paying more for a low mileage 91nsx?
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