Parts have been sitting here since then. Super busy with my business, record year :-> and it will be over the holidays before I can get to it. ill post when it's done.
What type of suspension is the best for ride and handling...?
- Thread starter NSX78__
- Start date
Cool look forward to hearing about it.
I checked with SOS and the Type S is very limited and has to be pieced together part by part.
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No one i'm aware of makes an adaptive kit for the NSX. JRZ teased one at SEMA around 2019 IIRC but to this day it's only been available to corporate clients, not the end user.
I've considered 3D printing a mount to my JRZs for the EDFC but i've heard the micro servo motors they use has little torque. The JRZ knobs require considerable effort. Fortune Auto makes a servo controller but it's kind of a bandaid solution like the Tein so I question it's practical usage.
Don't forget MCS. I'm very happy with my set. They offer 2 and 3-way solutions as well. I'm using a one-way.
I'm not sure what your suspension background is, but just in case you're an amateur like I am what I learned was that the high end suspension are only as good as the tuning. Actually, it's much easier to have high end dampers ride like Poo Poo than it is for mediocre ones that were tuned for the car (e.g. KW V3).
@stuntman is currently testing a new KW 4-way (or 5-way? I can't remember) damper system for the NSX. It looks super fancy.
I think it's hard to go wrong with the big names (MCS, JRZ, Nitron, etc..). I'm quite happy, possibly even IN-LOVE, with my JRZ RS Pro (2-way) but after 8yrs of tweaking knobs and learning it I wish I would have splurged for the 3-ways. I can still upgrade my existing units though.. so there's that option on the table.
I think the question is... find a vendor that has experience valving for the NSX so you're at least "in the ballpark" when you're turning knobs. I can only attest to the JRZ's but others have had good experience with the MCS and even the long travel Ohlins DFVs. Both Ohlins and MCS are sort of new kids on the block. JRZ, Moton, KW, they've been availble for the platform for a while. I have zero experience with Motons fwiw so cannot comment on them. I don't see many using them any longer.
Around 100,000 miles. Honda requires that spec from Showa, who builds them. You start to see them get tired after 50-75k.
After a brief search, here are some prices I found for different NSX coilover setups:
JRZ RS - 1 way - $2,575
JRZ RS - 2 way - $3,250
JRZ RS Pro - 2 way - $4,080 - $4,807
JRZ RS Pro - 3 way - $5,080
JRZ 11 Series 2-way - $5,520 - $6,575
JRZ 12 Series 3-way - $8,375 - $9,030
JRZ 13 Series 4-way - $12,977
MCS 1-way - $2,650 - $4,692
MCS 2-way - $3,350 - $6,612
MCS 3-way - $5,900 - $8,272
MCS 4-way - $9,630
Moton 2-way - $4,640 - $6,046
Moton 3-way - $7,600 - $9,099
Ohlins DFV 1-way - $4,245
KW Variant 3 2-way - $3,125
KW Variant 5 4-way - $6,400
The KW V5 is a heck of a deal. None of those dampers use solid piston technology and it is by far the least expensive 4-way damper and is less expensive than many 3-way dampers.
***When looking into purchasing a high-end racing coilover, it's important to consider who is selling them because THEY CAN VARY SIGNIFICANTLY in terms of fitment, suspension travel, damping, comfort, handling, etc... depending on who builds them / specified the damper body lengths, damping curves, spring rates, etc..
It is unlikely for a JRZ 11 Series 2-way from company X to be the same dimensions, fit, ride, or handle the same as a JRZ 11 Series 2-way from company Y. This is because JRZ, MCS, Moton, and Ohlins do not develop a 'kit' for a given platform. Their business model is to cater to race teams and shops. Shops will then determine all of the above and then come up with their own 'spec', and then have the suspension company (JRZ, MCS, Moton) build dampers for them to their spec; which they sell to the customer.
This might be eye-opening for many people since the general belief is that suspension manufacturers develop a product for a platform, and then retail shops sell them. This is true for Tein, Bilstein, BC Racing, FEAL, K-Tuned, D2, CEIKA, Megan, Fortune Auto, and KW. However, KW is known to put a lot of time, effort and engineering into their suspension systems for each platform, where other manufacturers can vary significantly in the eingeering and end result. This is also where the KW V5 4-way becomes a more consistent plug-and-play option.
This doesn't mean that a racing coilover setup would be bad by any means, but it's important to purchase one of those suspensions from a company familiar with the NSX, who has sold a lot of them, and supports their customers rather than throwing something together with no experience for a few hundred dollars less than an experienced NSX shop.
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JRZ RS - 1 way - $2,575
JRZ RS - 2 way - $3,250
JRZ RS Pro - 2 way - $4,080 - $4,807
JRZ RS Pro - 3 way - $5,080
JRZ 11 Series 2-way - $5,520 - $6,575
JRZ 12 Series 3-way - $8,375 - $9,030
JRZ 13 Series 4-way - $12,977
MCS 1-way - $2,650 - $4,692
MCS 2-way - $3,350 - $6,612
MCS 3-way - $5,900 - $8,272
MCS 4-way - $9,630
Moton 2-way - $4,640 - $6,046
Moton 3-way - $7,600 - $9,099
Ohlins DFV 1-way - $4,245
KW Variant 3 2-way - $3,125
KW Variant 5 4-way - $6,400
The KW V5 is a heck of a deal. None of those dampers use solid piston technology and it is by far the least expensive 4-way damper and is less expensive than many 3-way dampers.
***When looking into purchasing a high-end racing coilover, it's important to consider who is selling them because THEY CAN VARY SIGNIFICANTLY in terms of fitment, suspension travel, damping, comfort, handling, etc... depending on who builds them / specified the damper body lengths, damping curves, spring rates, etc..
It is unlikely for a JRZ 11 Series 2-way from company X to be the same dimensions, fit, ride, or handle the same as a JRZ 11 Series 2-way from company Y. This is because JRZ, MCS, Moton, and Ohlins do not develop a 'kit' for a given platform. Their business model is to cater to race teams and shops. Shops will then determine all of the above and then come up with their own 'spec', and then have the suspension company (JRZ, MCS, Moton) build dampers for them to their spec; which they sell to the customer.
This might be eye-opening for many people since the general belief is that suspension manufacturers develop a product for a platform, and then retail shops sell them. This is true for Tein, Bilstein, BC Racing, FEAL, K-Tuned, D2, CEIKA, Megan, Fortune Auto, and KW. However, KW is known to put a lot of time, effort and engineering into their suspension systems for each platform, where other manufacturers can vary significantly in the eingeering and end result. This is also where the KW V5 4-way becomes a more consistent plug-and-play option.
This doesn't mean that a racing coilover setup would be bad by any means, but it's important to purchase one of those suspensions from a company familiar with the NSX, who has sold a lot of them, and supports their customers rather than throwing something together with no experience for a few hundred dollars less than an experienced NSX shop.
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Thanks Billy. Another question for your input: What do you think generally about the 3 and 4-way options for non-racing drivers? I've always felt like most people make those setups worse because they don't have access to telemetry and a race engineer, so they end up guessing based on road feel. I have no doubt someone like you can feel the differences and make the adjustments on a 4-way damper, but for us mere mortals, is that the right way to go? I have a racing background and even I stick to 1-way (rebound) adjustable dampers because they're hard to mess up- I keep them in the middle settings for the street and turn up the rebound and adjust at the track based on conditions. My MCS 1-way have been fantastic.
For Albert, would you really recommend a 4-way system? I feel like even the KW 2-way can be confusing for owners. I would argue that the "high end" setups for regular owners would be the 1-way solutions from any of the premium club racing vendors.
For Albert, would you really recommend a 4-way system? I feel like even the KW 2-way can be confusing for owners. I would argue that the "high end" setups for regular owners would be the 1-way solutions from any of the premium club racing vendors.
You have more valves for rebound, compression settings. That's exactly why it's way beter even on "bumpy" road, racetrack curbs too. There is fast rebound and fast compression because there are multiple valves which let the oil through. (bypass valve)
You simply can't setup a 1 way for this because there is just a single valve with no bypass valves.
It's not rocket science to setup, KW provide data even for the KW v3 from their test environment. So I really hope there is the same recommended settings for the v5 too.
I think keeping the bypass valves with only 1 setting is actually the gimmick of the Ohlins DFV (it's in the acronym itself). In real use it's indeed really good.
Agree, but a lot of the setup is based on driver feedback/preference and car setup. IIRC, the V3 was tested and developed on KW's NSX race car, which may behave differently than a stock NSX on rubber suspension bushings. Also, the 3/4 way adjustments interact with each other and end up unsettling the car if adjusted improperly. Almost all the pro drivers I know recommended to me to use a 1-way solution and work with a shop to set the bump damping- and they knew my driving ability was fairly high. In my case, I worked with MCS to set the bump damping at my preferred level. We started with a baseline of the NA2 NSX-R (I have the shock dynos) and then tweaked it based on my driving preferences and MCS's internal chassis dynamics data. They actually have a lot of data on the NSX chassis and were confident they could do better than the NA2 R. And they did LOL.
It's hard to get that on an off-the shelf product. My suspension works with me when I drive, not against me. I prefer generally to trail brake through the turn to keep the front wheels loaded a little more and I tend to late apex. I also like a little late turn understeer because it lets me work the steering wheel and roll the throttle on smoothly without having to fight oversteer as much- I find that I carry more corner exit speed this way and the car feels more stable to me. It's just the way I drive. There are a million different ways to approach it and all can be fast. I explained this and other preferences to MCS and they (a) got excited and (b) got it immediately. The dampers do exactly this behavior and it's wonderful- they nailed it. I recommend you do the same if you are looking for the true "high end" experience. It's really, really difficult for a company to manufacture it and put it in a box because in handling, one size does not fit all. My understanding from MCS is that their valving technology is among the best you can get right now.
The 3 and 4 way setups are intended to be taken to a circuit and tested (ideally with telemetry) and set up to the driver's preference. Also remember there are things like tire compound, air pressure and alignment settings that affect the setup. I gave MCS all of that info too. I'm glad Billy is working with KW on the V5 system and hopefully he can do for us what he did with the V3 and provide the community with some baseline setup advice. I'm interested to see what he says, since he can probably explain this a lot better than me.
We can easily go down the rabbit hole here and that's fine, but i'll just echo (albeit in much more limited sense) what Billy said, that in my limited experience with high end dampers, you're really buying the technology, materials, and machining excellence. It's mostly the "tuner" or in this case the suspension shop selling you the damping curve.
We see it time and time again.. the folks that rant and rave about how good their suspension is, including my younger self, was just ignorant and lacking experience with better dampers.
I still think an on-board adjustable damper system is the best system for the ultimate setup. Even with my measly 2-way setup I already know that on any given road, at any particular weather/temperature, tires, weight balance, my dampers are not setup optimally for the road ahead BUT i'm too lazy to turn 8 knobs at 4 corners of the car so I mostly get them in the ballpark.
With that said, I really need to discount the feedback I get from individuals because more often than not, ignorance is bliss.
We see it time and time again.. the folks that rant and rave about how good their suspension is, including my younger self, was just ignorant and lacking experience with better dampers.
I still think an on-board adjustable damper system is the best system for the ultimate setup. Even with my measly 2-way setup I already know that on any given road, at any particular weather/temperature, tires, weight balance, my dampers are not setup optimally for the road ahead BUT i'm too lazy to turn 8 knobs at 4 corners of the car so I mostly get them in the ballpark.
With that said, I really need to discount the feedback I get from individuals because more often than not, ignorance is bliss.
@Honcho I wish there was an optimal 1-way setup but tbh.. unless that particular setup was custom tuned for your vehicle's characteristics (i.e. weight balance, ride height, spring/swaybar package, etc), your local road conditions, and driving style, it's probably just a ballpark guess from the suspension vendor. Thankfully for amateurs like us, it's mostly good enough just getting to 80% there.
I'm glad this topic came up because I was pondering spending the $$$ to get my 2-ways modified to 3 or 4 ways. Now, i'm not even going to bother. Mine is good enough for me.
I'm glad this topic came up because I was pondering spending the $$$ to get my 2-ways modified to 3 or 4 ways. Now, i'm not even going to bother. Mine is good enough for me.
Can I just say... the KW V1, V2, V3, V5, etc nomenclature is SUPER confusing. Why is the V3 a 2-way? I wish they would have just called it a V2 for a 2-way.
I will be testing the V5 and provide different recommendations for "Comfort", "Street", "Canyon", and "Track" -like I did for the V3. This will give people an understanding of the differences in settings between each setup, so they have a better understanding of what I did with the different clicks, and are in a far better starting off point to make adjustments from.
Without the awareness of my baseline settings for the V3, people can easily get lost and just recently I saw someone was recommended to set their V3s near full soft, which is not good...
This is not true. The V3 was tested on an NSX-R with rubber bushings; NOT a racecar on spherical bearings.
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Your interactions with MCS is similar to, and probably more in-depth than most shops that sell MCSs dampers. Not everyone has NSX-R dampers to send in to have dynoed and then dampers valved to match them, so your experience is extremely rare and not typical for most buyers. Are you going to offer your valving to other NSX owners?Also, the 3/4 way adjustments interact with each other and end up unsettling the car if adjusted improperly. Almost all the pro drivers I know recommended to me to use a 1-way solution and work with a shop to set the bump damping- and they knew my driving ability was fairly high. In my case, I worked with MCS to set the bump damping at my preferred level. We started with a baseline of the NA2 NSX-R (I have the shock dynos) and then tweaked it based on my driving preferences and MCS's internal chassis dynamics data. They actually have a lot of data on the NSX chassis and were confident they could do better than the NA2 R. And they did LOL.
My suspension works with me when I drive, not against me. I prefer generally to trail brake through the turn to keep the front wheels loaded a little more and I tend to late apex. I also like a little late turn understeer because it lets me work the steering wheel and roll the throttle on smoothly without having to fight oversteer as much- I find that I carry more corner exit speed this way and the car feels more stable to me. It's just the way I drive. There are a million different ways to approach it and all can be fast. I explained this and other preferences to MCS and they (a) got excited and (b) got it immediately. The dampers do exactly this behavior and it's wonderful- they nailed it. I recommend you do the same if you are looking for the true "high end" experience. It's really, really difficult for a company to manufacture it and put it in a box because in handling, one size does not fit all. My understanding from MCS is that their valving technology is among the best you can get right now.
The 3 and 4 way setups are intended to be taken to a circuit and tested (ideally with telemetry) and set up to the driver's preference. Also remember there are things like tire compound, air pressure and alignment settings that affect the setup. I gave MCS all of that info too. I'm glad Billy is working with KW on the V5 system and hopefully he can do for us what he did with the V3 and provide the community with some baseline setup advice. I'm interested to see what he says, since he can probably explain this a lot better than me.
It's great to hear that you're happy with the valving that you and MCS came up with. They are known for high quality parts and products, and I like them a lot. I set up a WRL race winning team's M4 GT4 with those dampers. The MCS valve technology is on the older side where newer solid piston dampers (KW, Ohlins, DSSV) and replacing shim stacks with poppets (Ohlin's race dampers) or spools (DSSV dampers) being newer and more advanced technology.
The advantage to a 3 or 4 way damper is the ability to adjust them. There is more range of adjustment to dial in comfort, steering response, handling, balance, etc... by adjusting 3 or 4 damping forces of the shock vs only 1 in a 1-way damper; which needs to have the other 2-3 damping curves set for either comfort or performance.
There are many race teams (amateur and professional) and companies like Guntherwerks who hire me to set their race cars or production cars, from aero, to tires, springs, bars, and adjust the dampers (among many other aspects of a car's performance). I've even been hired by a few people to set up their road cars and advise them on making their cars more comfortable, easier to drive, and faster.
For the most part, even advanced drivers and teams leave a lot of drivability, handling and performance left on the table by not optimizing their damper setups, so it is difficult to set up any car. Changing springs, bars, tire compounds, tire sizes, alignment, aero, etc... all affects everything about how a car drives and handles. For the NSX, there are common setups for tire sizes and alignment that make everything else a little more consistent and makes my guide for V3 owners helpful for those with KWs. I will be doing with the V5 to support people who buy them.
There are many ways to look at high end suspension, and it's a very complicated question where one size does not fit all. Some people want the 'best', some people want brand names, others want to play with knobs and try things, while others want to set it and forget it. Everyone's situation is different. I hope the main takeaway when looking at high-end dampers is to make sure to know who you're buying from, their experience with the NSX and more importantly the level of support behind them and go from there to make the best decision for your goals.
ignorance is bliss I tell you...
Thanks Billy.
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Forgot to answer your question. Yes, I'm happy to share my valving with whoever wants it. For me, community support is more important than any proprietary interest. You can order the "Honcho Spec" dampers from AR Motorsports, who set them up. They have my setup, which uses longer shock bodies and rods and Mark's setup, which rides lower and uses his preferred valving combined with a 2-way setup.
Edit:
Forgot to answer your question. Yes, I'm happy to share my valving with whoever wants it. For me, community support is more important than any proprietary interest. You can order the "Honcho Spec" dampers from AR Motorsports, who set them up. They have my setup, which uses longer shock bodies and rods and Mark's setup, which rides lower and uses his preferred valving combined with a 2-way setup.
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