What the "NEW" NSX Should Have Been?

[NSXBat]

I still see/understand why Honda wasn't looking to appease the American NSXprime crowd as all they basically bought were used cars..

Because Honda worked from 1980's (with the CRX) for all-most 30 years to build a loyal fan base (who bought Civics and then used NSX's) as we went from college to working professionals.

Now 25 years later we have the money to buy new, and we grew-up loving Honda .....too bad Honda is ready to toss us all away.... they now care more about car's that can book a tee-time for you, or give you a movie review in comfort as you drive your front engine car that blends in with 99.8% of all other cars on the road.

 

[WingZ]

Because Honda worked from 1980's (with the CRX) for all-most 30 years to build a loyal fan base (who bought Civics and then used NSX's) as we went from college to working professionals.

Now 25 years later we have the money to buy new, and we grew-up loving Honda .....too bad Honda is ready to toss us all away.... they now care more about car's that can book a tee-time for you, or give you a movie review in comfort as you drive your front engine car that blends in with 99.8% of all other cars on the road.

What are you talking about Bat??? The Civic came out waaaaaay before the CRX! The CRX when it first came out was known as the Civic CRX. People were buying Civics before they were buying the CRX. Besides people who were buying Civics starting in 1985

Well apparently the Majority of people here do not have $150+ plus to spend on a new NSX even if it were mid engine. If you follow the complaint posts almost everyone says "so instead I'll buy a used whatever instead"

How can Honda toss you all away when they don't even know you! If your a car company what sense would it make to ask people who bought your car used as they didn't give you any money. That's stupid! If you have the money to buy the type of car Honda is getting ready to sell but don't like it then just go buy a NEW fully optioned R8 since you guys act like it's the NSX replacement anyway.

How many people on here have a new R8 anyway? I mean since price isn't a problem you guys could've been on the waitlist since whatever Honda was doing wouldn't be out until 2010 and then if you liked it trade the Audi and get it , if not keep the R8. Seriously how big a deal is that.

I mean seriously if you can afford $150k+ for a car then why would you b*tch about a $90k car that didn't sell for $90k. I've yet to meet a person that bought a new NSX say "I should've got a used one and saved the money" screw that! If you could've afforded it comfortably when they were still being made and you could've since you can "Now" afford to buy a new version for $150k then what's the deal the old one was cheap by those standards.

Bro I'm so not talking about your financial situation because I honestly don't know it but you really are giving me BS with your reply.

 

[nastinupe1]

Are we talking about the Cayman or 997S? That's a pertty quick way to switch subject. Sorry to tell you this, I don't think Porsche's build quality is better than Honda's. I have two close friends, one with 2004 Boxter S and One with standard 2005 997. Both had their engines replaced under warrantee.

It's a Porsche, people want them, just like people still drives around their 1980 F 308 thinking they're the bomb.

Again, if I'm forced to buy a Porsche, it will not be the Cayman. Like Clarkson said, it's interesting knowing that Porsche Cayman handles better than the 997 but purposely handicap it by offering less engine.

BTW, I did not say S2k will be a Cayman, I said it is NOT THAT MUCH FASTER THAN A S2k.

Just for laughs and giggles
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By road and track

S2000 CR MSRP $38000
0-60 5.3 seconds
1/4 mile 13.7 second @100.8
Top speed 150 mph
60-0 109 ft
80-0 204 ft
Lateral: 0.99g
700 feet slalom: 71.7 MPH

Cayman $58900
0-60 4.8 seconds
1/4 mile 13.3 second @106.2
Top speed 160 mph
60-0 110 ft
80-0 190 ft
Lateral: ?
700 feet slalom: 71.7 MPH

Pertty close????

But here is what matters, seems like every one like to use this as the bench mark:
Porsche 997 GT3 RS: 7:47
NSX NA2 R 7:56
Porsche 991 Turbo 7:56
360 CS 7:56
997 CS 7:59
996 GT3 8:03
NSX NA1 R 8:03
Porsche Cayman S 8:25
NSX NA1 Cpe: 8:38
S2k AP1: 8:39

Since Cayman S is top end model, it is fair to compare it to NSX-R since they are in the same class according to some people. Obviously it is clearly faster than AP1 S2k and NA1 NSX. Too bad they didn't test a NSX Type S (Zanardi edition), but I assumed it will be similar to the NA1 R, which beat the Cayman S by 22 seconds!!!

This video stated that the S2000 was "tuned", however, none of the other cars were "tuned". So I am assuming that the S2000 had a little bit of an advantage over a stock model S2000 even though it still came in last.

Also, the Cayman has many more creature comforts that the S2000 doesn't have, and it still handles better. To me, that's an amazing feat. Not only can you carve out mountains, but you can do it in style, and in comfort. The S2000 only lets you do one out of three. So you're paying for the style and comfort of the Porsche, not just the performance.

But I do understand where you're coming from about buying the Cayman over the 911, however, some people don't want the most expensive model just because they don't.

Heck, I am thinking about moving from a 2005 TL to a 2009 TSX just because I like them and they made the TSX a little bigger with better gas mileage for a lower price.

I also know people who buy Civic's instead of Accords. You don't have to beat your cheat and spend the most amount of money to prove anything. It's just about what's right for you. And the Cayman fits a particular nitche of drivers that the 911 does not address. The purist.

 

[NSXBat]

What are you talking about Bat??? The Civic came out waaaaaay before the CRX!

How can Honda toss you all away when they don't even know you!

Bro I'm so not talking about your financial situation because I honestly don't know it but you really are giving me BS with your reply.

Point #1 - I had a CRX as my 1st Honda... it was a sports car that captured a lot of young guys like me. (not worried about the history of the Civic, just sharing a common profile of the Honda loyal costumer)

Point #2 - Honda knows exactly who I am... they spent 30 years careful studying the marketing data and made a play for a certain type of customer with everything they did. BUT NOW IT SEEMS ACURA has one foot in racing and one foot in chasing Lexus (split personality?) and not doing either well

Point #3 - Wow, you get mad fast!

 

[WingZ]

Point #1 - I had a CRX as my 1st Honda... it was a sports car that captured a lot of young guys like me. (not worried about the history of the Civic, just sharing a common profile of the Honda loyal costumer)

Point #2 - Honda knows exactly who I am... they spent 30 years careful studying the marketing data and made a play for a certain type of customer with everything they did. BUT NOW IT SEEMS ACURA has one foot in racing and one foot in chasing Lexus (split personality?) and not doing either well

Point #3 - Wow, you get mad fast!

LOL No this is just internet play.

Point#1 Is you said the CRX was the first Civic not your first but thanks for clarifying.

Point#2 Clarify this are you saying Honda has made 30 years of careful planning for the NSX replacement or for the last NSX? I ask because there were only 6 years difference between the CRX and the NSX.

Point#3 I apologize if it came across that way I've gotten so used to dealing with my friends who are so blunt all the time. I thought at the end I clarified that I was angry and that to me you point was just BS. Which hey sometimes my arguments called BS by other people to ..LOL

We're just talking trash on here anyway about a car that hasn't even come out.

 

[VampNSXX]

Design-wise, the Saleen S5S gets my vote.

That is the new NSX to me. I am going to buy one one day. Ill put it right next to the 2 nsx's in my garage and my sweet ass dirty blue civic that takes me to work every day. I have a 3 car garage I guess the civic will have to sleep outside.

 

[NSXLuvr]

Nope, Honda is probably not interested in competing with a:

Cheaply put together "mid" level Porksche

Which is not that much faster than the $34k FR S2000.....

I'll keep my S2k CR, $5k more I can have it with CTSC and will run with the regular 997S.

a few counter points:

1. Porsche build quality is usually next to Lexus in J.D. Power surveys.

2. A Cayman S is superior to a S2000 in many ways. Power and handling is just one example. It is a superior all around package IMHO. Btw, IMHO the CR is fugliest S2000 ever made. Lets see - After 8 years Honda comes out with an FUGLY version with ZERO HP gains! PATHETIC!!

3. Why are you comparing a modded car to a stock car. You own a NSX. Do you really want to make a $/HP arguement. I have buddy with a Modded camaro who would like to join in the discussion.

 

[NSXLuvr]

One more...

4. Are you seriously putting in a BM video as a legitimate arguement? What a joke!

 

[BD]

One more...

4. Are you seriously putting in a BM video as a legitimate arguement? What a joke!

You are completely missing the point. 2008 S2k = $34k, that is not far away from the price when it was introduced in 1999 (Less than $1k difference with huge improvement over the original).

Cayman pricing is almost double of that. On paper, the performance is less than 10% difference.

Built quality wise, if I have make a choice between the 2, and I have to keep it for 100k plus miles, guess which one I would choose!!!

The title: "What the "NEW" NSX Should Have Been?" has been over played. New Honda MR is NOT going to happen, if Cayman is it, STOP CRING AND BUY A CAYMAN!!!

To me, the obvious choice is there, instead of crying, buy a Porsche!!!

 

[Silver F16]

According to the logic here, the S2000 performance should then be compared to the NSX. Better or equal lateral acceleration, better slalom, slightly slower. Many years ago, My buddy's stock S2000 were spanking many NSX in the tight corners of mountain roads.

So, $30K plus for an S2000 or almost 3x that for an NSX. Come on. Crappy comparsion right? Of course. Then why compare an S2000 to Cayman S.

Cayman S vs NSX: Mid-engine, 6 cylinders, comparable straight line speed, Cayman S has comparable weight to Zanardi/Type S. Cayman S will outbrake and out handle NSX. Don't bother talking about type S Zero or Type R with gumball tires. Those car didn't make it to our shores. No fancy aluminum for Cayman S but Porsche gets the job done with steel and no weight penalty.

Cayman S isn't as pretty yet it has updated modern touches such as side and curtain airbags, skid control, and PASM. So for $65-$70K, you can get a modern vehicle that has the same basic formula as the NSX except it is updated with the latest in safety ware and up the ante on the handling. Now, if only we can get Porsche to improve its reliability.

 

[BD]

So here is the deal, since the title of thread is "What the "NEW" NSX Should Have Been?" And the S2k spank your NSX, that means a more powerful S2k/V10 engine with Front midship layout is more than fine. The first initial report of the AWD NSX replacement shown great potential and they still have two more years to go before the production. What people need to do is stop complaining and wait for the result before making the final judgement. What if this new car is fully capable of beating out 99% of the production cars on the Ring, no one with a right mind should talk shit.

There is a good reason why Testarossa was dropped in favorite of 550/575/599. There is NOTHING wrong with the layout. The bottom line is Balance.

If people are still dangling over what Honda should have done, THERE ARE OTHER CHOICES, such as R8 and Cayman S. Buy one of them and be happy, a mid engine Honda is NOT going to happen.

Second point is, with all the talk of Cayman faster than NSX. All the US spec NSX other than the Zanardi edition all come with softest suspension setting (in the entire NSX line up), therefore, if you want your car to out run a Caymen, toss some better suspension set up and you will either be on part or faster than the Cayman. Zanardi suspension is easy to get and according the test back in 1999, it pulled .99G. With that, it is still OEM setting!!!

There is a reason why Porksche make so much money per car even though their car is cheaply priced for the performance. The car may be well built but you're not getting the NSX quality. Few TRUE ethusiasts will care about Navi, heated seats/mirrors. There are very few cross overs between P and H cars any way.

I wish to marry Kira Knightly, but it ain't gonna happen doesn't matter how many threads I create on Kira Knightly fan forum!!!

 

[nastinupe1]

You are completely missing the point. 2008 S2k = $34k, that is not far away from the price when it was introduced in 1999 (Less than $1k difference with huge improvement over the original).

Cayman pricing is almost double of that. On paper, the performance is less than 10% difference.

Built quality wise, if I have make a choice between the 2, and I have to keep it for 100k plus miles, guess which one I would choose!!!

The title: "What the "NEW" NSX Should Have Been?" has been over played. New Honda MR is NOT going to happen, if Cayman is it, STOP CRING AND BUY A CAYMAN!!!

To me, the obvious choice is there, instead of crying, buy a Porsche!!!

#1) Once you get to a certain point, performance gains aren't going to change by leaps and bounds.

#2) Who keeps a weekend driver for 100k plus miles?

#3) The only reason why the who Cayman subject came up is because NSXBat brought up the point that Porsche scared Honda out of the mid engine (behind the seats) arena because of the Cayman and the $60,000 price tag... which makes perfect sense.

NSX was ~$90k and had 297 hp.
Porsche Cayman is ~$65k and has 295 hp.

Both cars have similar performance numbers which really killed Honda's whole concept of David and Goliath with the NSX. You have a premier sports car maker making a more luxourious car with more amenities and technology along with better performance for $30k less than a HONDA.

So in other words, if Honda wan't to compete again, they have to do what they are trying to do. Beat the GT-R. But for it to work, they have to price this car below $80,000.

 

[N Spec]

#1) Once you get to a certain point, performance gains aren't going to change by leaps and bounds.

#2) Who keeps a weekend driver for 100k plus miles?

#3) The only reason why the who Cayman subject came up is because NSXBat brought up the point that Porsche scared Honda out of the mid engine (behind the seats) arena because of the Cayman and the $60,000 price tag... which makes perfect sense.

NSX was ~$90k and had 297 hp.
Porsche Cayman is ~$65k and has 295 hp.

Both cars have similar performance numbers which really killed Honda's whole concept of David and Goliath with the NSX. You have a premier sports car maker making a more luxourious car with more amenities and technology along with better performance for $30k less than a HONDA.

So in other words, if Honda wan't to compete again, they have to do what they are trying to do. Beat the GT-R. But for it to work, they have to price this car below $80,000.

No, more like the NSX has been in the market for 15 years and it was time for it to retire. I don't believe it an issue of the Cayman scaring Honda. The Elise cost less and performs nearly the same. Many cars performed better in accel and cost less. Honda was ill prepared and just hopped on the Front engine AWD bandwagon to compete with Nissan.

They should just released the already more developed HSC for a limited few years until they can get this mess of a V10 coupe ready for production. Seriously, it could have been a trial release of 2006-2010 until the new "V10 monster" drops. Then they could have dropped the HSC if they wanted unless it sold decently well. That would have been the smart and productive move to make instead of scraping the whole concept. Think about all of the wasted research and production.

 

[BD]

#1) Once you get to a certain point, performance gains aren't going to change by leaps and bounds.

#2) Who keeps a weekend driver for 100k plus miles?

#3) The only reason why the who Cayman subject came up is because NSXBat brought up the point that Porsche scared Honda out of the mid engine (behind the seats) arena because of the Cayman and the $60,000 price tag... which makes perfect sense.

NSX was ~$90k and had 297 hp.
Porsche Cayman is ~$65k and has 295 hp.

Both cars have similar performance numbers which really killed Honda's whole concept of David and Goliath with the NSX. You have a premier sports car maker making a more luxourious car with more amenities and technology along with better performance for $30k less than a HONDA.

So in other words, if Honda wan't to compete again, they have to do what they are trying to do. Beat the GT-R. But for it to work, they have to price this car below $80,000.

So what you're saying is, the NSX is not worth 90k? When a slightly faster 360 Modena was going for double of that?

YOU CAN'T COMPARE APPLE TO ORANGE!!! If that is the case, an EVO is an absolute barging because other than top speed, it will be on part or slightly faster than the Cayman for half the price.

The bottom line is this, you can buy performance cheap, but you can't buy a car that is one of a kind, hand assembled, build with exotic material cheap?

Cayman, C6 and GTR are the perfect example of cheap product for the mass.

Some body here will understand the following analogy. You can buy a Sony Stereo receiver (100 watts each channel )for $200 bucks, or a Denon unit for $600 bucks, or Mark Levinson for $5000, which one will perform better? If every one have your mentality, Mark Levinson would have gone out of business decades ago!!!

 

[N Spec]

<i><b>Cayman, C6 and GTR are the perfect example of cheap product for the mass.</b></i>

I believe this is one of the few times I totally agree with Vance.

 

[WingZ]

#1)
#2) Who keeps a weekend driver for 100k plus miles?

People who own an NSX:biggrin:

#1) #3) The only reason why the who Cayman subject came up is because NSXBat brought up the point that Porsche scared Honda out of the mid engine (behind the seats) arena because of the Cayman and the $60,000 price tag... which makes perfect sense.

Uh actually that makes no sense as the NSX was discontinued in 05 and the Cayman was an 06 Model. Honda knew before the 05's went out that that would be their last year. The Cayman had nothing to do with it. Besides Caymans have horrible resale value if you want to talk about price.

Also doesn't it take an electronic suspension for it to achieve it's grip levels? Does the stock suspension fare as well?

Someone also mentioned that the tires on the Porsche are just regular high performance while the CR uses semi R. If you go to Tirerack the CR and NSX-T tires are both rated as ultra high performance summer tires while the Cayman and Cayman S wear MAX performance summer tires. The Max of course is the higher grip tire.

I'm not bagging on them though as Caymans are nice cars. Funny how you don't hear about them anymore especially to have only come such a short time ago. The Z06 really blew the Cayman S out of the water because their pricing was so similar.

 

[NSXBat]

Funny thing, the Cayman guys are talking about the New NSX today

http://www.caymanclub.net/automotive-off-topic/25012-honda-s-next-nsx-rendering.html

Boils down to one point... "is it just me, or are Japanese exotics getting decidedly less exotic looking? It's a pretty design, but doesn't seem to exude exotic car sexiness that was the target of the original NSX. I could say the same thing about the GT-R.

The original NSX also didn't share a platform with an Acura sedan. On balance, it looks like they're aiming this car squarely at the GT-R, and not at the purebred exotic Ferraris and Lamborghinis of the world. I'm sure the performance will be on par with ultra exotics, but it's not likely to make people lust after it once the initial novelty's worn off."

 

[BD]

Funny thing, the Cayman guys are talking about the New NSX today

http://www.caymanclub.net/automotive-off-topic/25012-honda-s-next-nsx-rendering.html

Boils down to one point... "is it just me, or are Japanese exotics getting decidedly less exotic looking? It's a pretty design, but doesn't seem to exude exotic car sexiness that was the target of the original NSX. I could say the same thing about the GT-R.

The original NSX also didn't share a platform with an Acura sedan. On balance, it looks like they're aiming this car squarely at the GT-R, and not at the purebred exotic Ferraris and Lamborghinis of the world. I'm sure the performance will be on par with ultra exotics, but it's not likely to make people lust after it once the initial novelty's worn off."

From one of the quote
:Yep....lots of guys waiting for next NSX are finding their way to Cayman. So sad Honda had a chance to stand-out for mid-engine desing and took the easy way out instead "

I only know one NSX owner gave up his car for a Cayman; actually, he didn't gave it up, he just bought a Cayman as his daily driver, and kept the NSX in the Garage.

These people are pertty full of them selves.

 

[NSXBat]

These people are pertty full of them selves.

You come-across as a little brash yourself, you might not agree with them, but they don't seem to be doing anything more than stating their opinion :redface: (and although I'm glad to see you are a very passionate NSX guy) I thought the guys at Cayman Club had a very logical point

The first NSX was lusted after for 3 reasons...

1) Performance/handling
2) Sexy Looks on par with Lotus, Ferrari, Lambo
3) Reliability/build quality

I see the next NSX has dropped the Exotic look. Will that work? Seems like they are taking a lot of the fun out of the equation?

 

[BD]

You come-across as a little brash yourself, you might not agree with them, but they don't seem to be doing anything more than stating their opinion :redface: (and although I'm glad to see you are a very passionate NSX guy) I thought the guys at Cayman Club had a very logical point

The first NSX was lusted after for 3 reasons...

1) Performance/handling
2) Sexy Looks on par with Lotus, Ferrari, Lambo
3) Reliability/build quality

I see the next NSX has dropped the Exotic look. Will that work? Seems like they are taking a lot of the fun out of the equation?

You quoted me wrong.

I said they are full of them selves with the statement of "Yep....lots of guys waiting for next NSX are finding their way to Cayman." How many have you seen?

This is not about passion, but observing their statement, which is completely false.

 

[WingZ]

From one of the quote
:Yep....lots of guys waiting for next NSX are finding their way to Cayman. So sad Honda had a chance to stand-out for mid-engine desing and took the easy way out instead "

I only know one NSX owner gave up his car for a Cayman; actually, he didn't gave it up, he just bought a Cayman as his daily driver, and kept the NSX in the Garage.

These people are pertty full of them selves.

Vance I actually looked seriously at one of these when they first came out but once I saw the price of having it configured the way I wanted it it was close to what I paid for my NSX and just wasn't worth it.

Glad I didn't as the value of those cars drops horrendously! I'd be mad as hell if my car lost $30k in two years! That's nuts!

 

[nastinupe1]

$30k? Come on, the cheapest one on Autotrader is going for $41,000 and that model had no options, had 35,000 miles and is being sold by a private seller.

I'd agree with $20,000, which is pretty much in line for a $60,XXX 2 year old German car that was bought new. I see much worse with BMW's and Audi's.

I would never buy ANY car new for this reason. I made that mistake once, and never again. You just lose too much in depreciation. I also feel like the Cayman S is a bit over priced. It should have started at $49,000 and not $59,100. The regular Cayman starts at $49,400 though, which is a much better value.

 

[WingZ]

$30k? Come on, the cheapest one on Autotrader is going for $41,000 and that model had no options, had 35,000 miles and is being sold by a private seller.

I'd agree with $20,000, which is pretty much in line for a $60,XXX 2 year old German car that was bought new. I see much worse with BMW's and Audi's.

I would never buy ANY car new for this reason. I made that mistake once, and never again. You just lose too much in depreciation. I also feel like the Cayman S is a bit over priced. It should have started at $49,000 and not $59,100. The regular Cayman starts at $49,400 though, which is a much better value.

Yep $30k chief. Optioned with some but not all options the car quickly rose to $73k before tax. People don't understand that Porsche options the crap out of their cars! $200 for colored Porsche center caps! I looked at the salesman like he was crazy and he told people who buy Porsches understand

New cars are good to get you just have to do your homework and make sure you get a good deal. CR is a great deal for the money and because Honda fans diss it so much you can get a smokin deal on it! Same goes for the NSX man I got that for a steal. Plus Honda cars hold their value so well it doesn't make much sense to buy one used unless you buy one that's over 5 years old.

I truly hope the rest of you keep dissing and complaining about this upcoming model as I plan on getting that baby at invoice as well. Then all the guys bad mouthing will want one used driving it's value up. Good times.

But uh oh yeah the new car will be over priced and not worth the money so no one buy 'kay:wink:

 

[Silver F16]

I think the reason many of have different opinions on the NSX replacement is because many of us are in different phases in our NSX ownership.

First camp: The ones that owns an NSX and are very happy with the condition of their car. They are content with their NSX. This group tends not to care whether the new NSX is mid-engine or not. They love their NSX and it already fills a sweet spot in their hearts. So what if the NSX successor is not mid-engine, they already have one so they welcome the opportunity to experience something different from Honda.

Second camp: The ones that does not currently own an NSX and want to or ones that have an NSX but is ready for a updated version of the same lightweight mid-engine formula. Perhaps their car has had some significant miles. Perhaps the teenagers that read about the NSX back in 1991 has now grown up and has finally aspired to buy one brand new only to have Acura pull the plug. This group wants an true NSX replacement because that mid-engine void in their heart can only be filled by a new NSX. Sure, some can buy a late model used one, but others need a new NSX to fill the void.

It comes down to whether you have an NSX void or not. That could account for the different opinion on this board.

As for comparsion on the NSX and Cayman S, the Zanardi's handling was 0.93Gs as noted in Road and Track. If there was a report stating it cornered better than that, I haven't seen it. The Cayman S limits are above those of the 0.93 Gs of the Zanardi. As for Slalom speeds, it is not even remotely close. The Cayman S rules here.

The discussion about tires making a difference is plausible but we'll never know until one mounts equal tires for a direct comparsion.

The NSX is truly a a sweet vehicle and is an engineering marvel. It is still my favorite vehicle period. But I cannot deny that the boys from Porsche has done a phenomenal job on a vehicle based on a mainstream platform which out handles the NSX and weights in at around 2950 lbs. The NSX is almost a 20 year old design and none of us are surprised it is finally out gunned. But for many that has one in their garage, it is still their bride no matter how old it gets.

BTW Vance, my buddy's stock S2000 did not spank my stock NSX. It did spank at least 5 or 6 NSXs as I led him thru the pack.

 

[WingZ]

The two camps would work but honestly is the second camp stupid? They should've been gone long ago! We've known for sometime that Honda wasn't going to do another mid engine. I mean it's not even a wish as once Honda announced the new direction they've been following that direction. We go for months not hearing anything but every time some info has come out it's been about how the V10 front engine car has been developing/progressing.

I guess for guys that want something similar they could go to the Cayman S as it's closest to the NSX in weight but not more powerful , not exotic and won't have the reliability/durability of the NSX.

People keep saying the R8 is the new NSX so they could go there but why stay here and keep b*tching?

Same people that bash the NSX bash Hondas new car. The NSX void the second group has can only be solved by either modding their old car or getting a R8 , Cayman S , F430. All good cars and all have car forums where camp 2 can go and stop b*tching and complaining. Doesn't that sound nice:biggrin: