Can anyone tell why this car spun? I think it's a subaru. maybe he lifted?
http://texas.clubsi.com/roger/videos/thecrash.mpeg
http://texas.clubsi.com/roger/videos/thecrash.mpeg
what did he do wrong?
- Thread starter ak
- Start date
I see two things:
1. It appears that there is dirt or sand, etc. on the inside of the curve, as the 911 in front of him gets wiggly in the same place.
2. I think he pinched the turn a little, as he turns the wheel even more to the right after he made his initial turn in, setting the rear up for a step out (which might be his driving style with 4wd)?
JMHO, ICBW
1. It appears that there is dirt or sand, etc. on the inside of the curve, as the 911 in front of him gets wiggly in the same place.
2. I think he pinched the turn a little, as he turns the wheel even more to the right after he made his initial turn in, setting the rear up for a step out (which might be his driving style with 4wd)?
JMHO, ICBW
Haven't seen this vid in a long time. But when it was going around the forum circuit, I must have watched it at least 20 times.
I see the same things as Gary as well.
1. I see the 911 get a little wiggly.
2. He turns in even more...an instant after the rear is breaking loose.
3. Very late to correct the error. Very very late.
I remember,"Thinking why isn't he correcting?" But it's so easy to second guess and play Monday morning quarterback. I think the driver has done a couple of the OTC events and is a regular on CC.com. That said, I don't think he is a novice driver.
Now riddle me this:
M3 Crash
I see the same things as Gary as well.
1. I see the 911 get a little wiggly.
2. He turns in even more...an instant after the rear is breaking loose.
3. Very late to correct the error. Very very late.
I remember,"Thinking why isn't he correcting?" But it's so easy to second guess and play Monday morning quarterback. I think the driver has done a couple of the OTC events and is a regular on CC.com. That said, I don't think he is a novice driver.
Now riddle me this:
M3 Crash
My read on the Subura is driver was chasing the Porsche 911 and as such he was too fast going itno the turn (I don't think he shifted back to 3rd) and took the turn-in a little early and off line, he was 2/3 into the trcakc when starting his early apex turn-in ......... that's my guess. I thought he was instructing or was he talking to himslef. If he was instructing , he was pushing the car for an instructor.
As for the M3, I think the right side tires got on the painted berm. While traction load is on the left side tires, given the conditions on the track (it appeared to have recently rained), perhas the traction control got activated and made him spin as the right side tires got slippery on the paint .....? Also his handling of the steering wheel did not give one confidence.
Now, do we really know the true stories to what really happened?
As for the M3, I think the right side tires got on the painted berm. While traction load is on the left side tires, given the conditions on the track (it appeared to have recently rained), perhas the traction control got activated and made him spin as the right side tires got slippery on the paint .....? Also his handling of the steering wheel did not give one confidence.
Now, do we really know the true stories to what really happened?
For the M3 crash, it just happened today. And it's fairly close to how you judged it. The paint has some visibility enhancer (that also acted as a traction enhancer) on it left over from an endurance race a few months ago. My guess is that the traction was so different that the paint made the right side pull. It's either that or something broke in the suspension - reaching for an answer. Interesting note, that the back end got loose precisely during his upshift.
FWIW, the driver has no idea what happened. I still think he's in shock and I don't blame him. He hit pretty hard.
FWIW, the driver has no idea what happened. I still think he's in shock and I don't blame him. He hit pretty hard.
The M3 crash is very interesting. My guess is pavement irregularities. I really have no idea why that happen in the exit.
What is the take of the passenger (I assume his an instructor)?
The Subaru is a case of not correcting early enough. If I remember correctly it was one of his early days when he was still a novice.
What is the take of the passenger (I assume his an instructor)?
The Subaru is a case of not correcting early enough. If I remember correctly it was one of his early days when he was still a novice.
Yeah the Subarau film IS old. Your right he did not down shift and hold the pedal down to "pull" through, he left it in 4th and probably was not to the floor. He may not have lifted, but backing off even a touch can start rotation. He also was way late in the counter steer. I think it was a tunnel vision mistake. He was gaining on the Porsche and wanted to suck up to him through that sweeper. He just carried too much speed without a countersteer drift. <------- for very experienced drivers!!!
The M3 looks to me like a R-compound issue. It looks as if he is on the first lap of a session. (Does any one know?) He looks as if to be running about 7/10ths speed as if on cold tires. This would explain the twitchy toss on the upshift when he went off the track. If he was on street tires, was he running a high treadwear? i.e. 300???? The only time I have ever had my car react like his did on an upshift like that was due to cold R-compund tires.
The M3 looks to me like a R-compound issue. It looks as if he is on the first lap of a session. (Does any one know?) He looks as if to be running about 7/10ths speed as if on cold tires. This would explain the twitchy toss on the upshift when he went off the track. If he was on street tires, was he running a high treadwear? i.e. 300???? The only time I have ever had my car react like his did on an upshift like that was due to cold R-compund tires.
Now that I watched the video again, I see what you guys are saying. He also seems to apex early(for my taste anyways).
As for the M3, it does seem that the traction difference on the paint could be the cause. Plus, the shifting while he was on the paint upset the car?
Man, it scares me to watch these videos! but I guess they are good learning tools..
As for the M3, it does seem that the traction difference on the paint could be the cause. Plus, the shifting while he was on the paint upset the car?
Man, it scares me to watch these videos! but I guess they are good learning tools..
After watching these videos, I feel that I should keep my novice driving skills at autocrosses and Go-carting. I mean the worse thing that could happen at an autocross event is you spin and hit cones. Hope these guys have insurance.
Well, I don't know about that. So far this year, I've only been aware of three crashes at the track I frequent most. Which considering the amount of events they put on is remarkable. On the other hand, I know of an incident during the cone dodging finals in KS where a S2K got totalled b/c someone went off course. In addition, I've heard of a few rollovers this year in AX. Stuff happens...on the street and on the track.
We do average about 1-2 major crashes per 2 day event @ my home track (Road America) out of about 250 cars. That is less than 1%. Which is not bad considering this IS the highest top speed road course in the country.
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Riddle, indeed.
I agree. Except for the words "a little", for which I would substitute "way".Hrant said:
When you turn in too early and you're going too fast, your options are limited. With both of those mistakes - really bad ones - there was no way he was going to stay on the track. The proper correction is to keep the car going as straight as possible with only minor corrections, and to brake as long as the car is headed straight. Unfortunately, I think this driver recognized that he wasn't going to make the turn the way he was going, and then compounded his error by thinking he could keep the car on the track by simply turning the wheel more to tighten up the turn. It's a natural reaction, but one that makes the problem worse.
If you're referring to the Windy City BMW events (Tom and I go to some of the same events, and he's even gotten stuck with me as his instructor), they usually have about 130 students and 80 instructors, for a total of 210 cars. I don't make a distinction between "major" crashes and minor ones - to me, an incident is an incident - but we generally average 2-3 incidents per event, including the Friday (lapping day for instructors) as well as the Saturday-Sunday school. So that works out to somewhere in the 1-2 percent range, which is fairly typical. I think that particular event has been run for the past ~22 years, and it was incident-free only once (about three years ago, I think). This year there were five incidents, including a totalled NSXT Bell said:
, which is the most in quite some time. (One of the incidents was caused by mechanical failure - specifically, an engine failure in an E46 M3, which is not the most unusual occurrence around; in fact, an E46 M3 engine failed at the previous year's event, but without an incident resulting.)I'm not sure that's true - certainly not if you consider some of the road courses consisting of high-banked ovals connected to an infield course, like MIS or Gateway.T Bell said:
However, Road America is certainly a high speed track, and as a big spectator venue, it has a LOT of concrete if you go off. It's easy to see how high the speeds are when you look at the average distance between turns, with 14 turns on a 4.0-mile track. It's the only track I've driven where the distance between EVERY pair of turns is long enough that there is a straight, allowing you to re-set the car, with no two turns "connected" (where the trackout of one turn becomes the entry to the next one).
NSX/MR2
Suspended
gomaidy said:
After watching these videos, I feel that I should keep my novice driving skills at autocrosses and Go-carting. I mean the worse thing that could happen at an autocross event is you spin and hit cones. Hope these guys have insurance.
Not necessary. There are risks even at the track. You do remember the Yellow M3 incident, don't you? I also have seen a front-end of a ZO6 ate a cone before -- It was not pretty. Smaller risks, but there are risks.
from nsxtasy
Yeah I remember that mustard yellow E46 Ken!!! He was right in front of me in the advanced group!! Thats what they need to stay ahead of me!! (redline) JK
It is sad to see any car crash whether my friends green Integra (@ 13) or the silver 550 Maranello (@ 12) we lost 2 years ago. And the many others. The GOOD thing is that the track owners are making their tracks safer and safer every year. 99.9% of club crashes are for the most part injury free.....thank god! Ken do you remember the instructor E36 M3 car that entered the braking markers @ 12 with no brakes doing 125+??? He literally flew 4 feet off the ground, cleared the first tire barrier, the rear tires touched the second causing a nose dive. The car skidded on its nose for a while and then set down on all 4.
1 M3 = dead
2 M3 passengers un-injured.
Yeah I remember that mustard yellow E46 Ken!!! He was right in front of me in the advanced group!! Thats what they need to stay ahead of me!! (redline) JK
It is sad to see any car crash whether my friends green Integra (@ 13) or the silver 550 Maranello (@ 12) we lost 2 years ago. And the many others. The GOOD thing is that the track owners are making their tracks safer and safer every year. 99.9% of club crashes are for the most part injury free.....thank god! Ken do you remember the instructor E36 M3 car that entered the braking markers @ 12 with no brakes doing 125+??? He literally flew 4 feet off the ground, cleared the first tire barrier, the rear tires touched the second causing a nose dive. The car skidded on its nose for a while and then set down on all 4.
1 M3 = dead
2 M3 passengers un-injured.
NSX/MR2 said:
De,
The M3 incident involved a concrete/plastic water barrier in Race Legal drags event, what does that have to do with cones in an autocross event. I would rather have a Z06 testing its limits eating cones at an autocross than have it totaled at a canyon run or something.
NSX/MR2
Suspended
I am saying that there are risks even at the track. 1/8, 1/4, autocross,... are all considered track events. Being that, water, divider, cones,... are no exception. Heck, I got hit twice just driving on the street. Their insurances covered both accidents, but i am not happy one bit.
In all, going into the canyons is something that lots of us enjoyed to do and will continue to do so. You do what you wish, bro.
In all, going into the canyons is something that lots of us enjoyed to do and will continue to do so. You do what you wish, bro.
...An elementary example of why "true" sportscars are designed ***low and wide*** ...that roll is ridiculous, and I've seen several things as such by other "sedans" on the track. You'll never see an NSX do that in the same spin...
fangtl said:
Looks like mechanical failure or loss of tire pressure. I cannot imagine that was driver input to get it started.
I am thinking a brake bias problem, or that one front pad was gone, and the other one had some pad left.
Thanks for posting this link.Tank said:
I see that the Subaru driver recognizes many of the technical things that he did wrong - not braking or slowing the car sufficiently entering the turn, taking an early line, lifting, etc.
He mentions one additional contributing factor: failure to increase speed only in small increments, conditions permitting. If you're taking a corner at 60-65 mph, lap after lap, you can't just suddenly go through 15 mph faster.
One thing he mentions, but apparently doesn't realize is a BAD IDEA, is using R compound tires in his third track event ever. Some of the HPDE events I attend don't even let people run on track tires in the novice group.
I agree on the r-compounds. Ken, I have seen intermediate students that shouldn't have them!!! A lot of accidents happen during the first lap......over eager drivers with cold tires. I saw a C5 hit the wall coming out of turn 5 @ RA on the first lap cause he thought it would be cool to lay some rubber around a slow corner on a pace lap. He did! right into the left wall! Listening to that Scooby video the first time I thought he might be an instructor (camera, mic, comentary) Now I realize he was just a fool. Come on now 3rd event. The last thing he should have is a camera and a mic with dialogue.
