Whale War!

[TC]

I seriously doubt that. There would be world-wide outrage if that ever occurred.

Whales were/are endangered species hence the world-wide ban on whaling. The only reason why the Japanese can still whale is because just about every other country has given whaling. Had every other country continued to be as selfish as the Japanese, whales would now be extinct.

761,000 Minke whales minus 1000 harvested = sustainable population levels.

I am quite sure the remaining 760,000 can breed and give birth to an additional 1000 young to restore population levels in one year.

Keep in mind that:

1) Whales roam an area in the southern hemisphere of about 70 million square miles - so the density of whales is about 1 per 100 square miles. I don't know what the breaking point is, but if the density falls below a certain point, the population will eventually die out.

2) A whale doesn't become sexually mature until about age 7 or 8, has only one calf at a time, nurses that calf for over a year and doesn't get pregnant while still raising calf.

So the population of sexually mature males has to find the mature females that don't already have a nursing calf in 70 million square miles.

 

[BATMANs]

lol....

I'm sure even some of the members from Japan are quietly eating/utilizing their whale parts while ready this thread.

 

[TC]

Whaling is currently legal in the U.S.

CATCH LIMITS FOR ABORIGINAL SUBSISTENCE WHALING

The Commission sets catch limits for stocks subject to aboriginal subsistence whaling.

Eastern North Pacific gray whales (taken by native people of Chukotka and Washington State ) - A total catch of 620 whales is allowed for the years 2008 - 2012 with a maximum of 140 in any one year.

Oh come on - there is no comparison to commercial Japanese whaling which provides a gourmet luxury item to a population of 150 million people versus subsistance living for a communal tribal entity of a few hundred or a few thousand people. The Japanese are going out there with giant commercial whaling vessels, complete with sonar, etc. The eskimos are going out there in tiny boats and spears.

Now , taking into the fact that as most Americans shun whale meat , horse meat or eating of dogs or cats how do you think most Arab/Islamic/Jewish people feel about the fact that Americans like to eat pork ? How would you like it if they decided that we should not consume the flesh of this animal ? Better yet , let the people of India dictate that we cannot eat beef because the cow is considered a holy animal in their country.

The uproar is that the WORLD has decided to ensure the survival of the species (the whales), whaling must end. As you point out, we don't eat dog and cat in the US but there is no large-scale outcry against countries that do because dogs and cats, like pigs and chickens and most other barnyard animals reproduce at an incredible rate. A mother pig can poop out 5 to 8 pigglets in a liter - and do that every year. A chicken can lay an egg daily. Cows, pigs, dogs, cats, chickens, etc. become mature and can reproduce literally in 1-3 years after being born. The offspring become independent of the mother in days or weeks of being born. Furthermore, all of these animals can be raised in captive/farm environments. You can count the number of whales born in captivity on your fingers and toes.

 

[TC]

That is the key to the problem , people's tastes would have to change. If people did not wish to purchase whale meat , there would be no market for the whaling.

How would you feel if U.S. citizens enjoyed eating whale meat and had legal whale hunts to get meat for the table ?

People in all parts of the world have tastes for various things. In some countries, eating the sex organs of tigers, lions and bears is considered a gourmet item, as well as something to enhance your own sexual prowess. Hunting elephants for their ivory, rhino's for the horns, etc - it is all the same problem. Animals that reproduce in small numbers and can't reproduce in captivity simply shouldn' be used for any commerical human purpose.

Regarding whale meat in Japan, do a little research and you will see that the demand for whale meat is falling, yet the year-over-year whale killings have increased. In Japan, whale meat is now cheaper than beef, pork or chicken. Clearly, a growing segment of the Japanese population doesn't care to eat whale meat. So, to make up for the falling price, the whale industry has increased the catch.

So even in Japan, the desire for whale meat is dying - they should just end the practice all together and end this sham of whale research. Those whale fisherman can easily catch other types of seafood that the Japanese do love to eat and are sustainable.

 

[PoohBEAR]

I am all for saving the whales....but the WHY isn't an issue. The question above was the HOW..........how can the Steve Irwin goes out there swinging like a criminal on international water? Why can they do it peacefully in the manner of the law?

 

[ashman]

Like many of the previous posters I agree that at this point in our civilization whaling should be vehemently condemned.

However, in the show some of the tactics mainly prop fouling efforts have given me pause as it seems a step to far to try and disable/cripple a ship in the open ocean. In most instances, to me at least their actions seem hopelessly inadequate and inept at accomplishing anything but documenting the whaler's blatant hypocrisy.

 

[Cragar]

Crager, I mean this with no offense, but if you are posting the long threads just for me, don't. I am not reading them. I view this area completely different than you do, I think we already established that in the last thread. If you are posting for others to read, then that's fine. I don't have the stamina to go into a long discussion with you on this that will end up with neither of us agreeing anyway. And I don't think anyone else will care about our debate.

Turbo2go ,
I am not trying to pick on you specifically , just stating facts. There is a lot of misinformation blasted at us everyday by the media. This TV show is a complete farce.

Again , not trying to pick on you , just stating a point , Where did you get your information about butyric acid ? Let me guess. You watched Whale Wars. They said on the show that the butyric was real smelly , made the decks slippery and tainted the meat so it could not be sold. They never said anything about how dangerous or hazardous it was or how it is very toxic it is to marine life . All of the butyric acid thrown on that show ended up in the ocean after it was washed off the decks. In effect , poisoning the same waters they are tying to protect.

Whale Wars never told you that.

Watch what will happen , some young impressionable 20yo will get a hold of some butyric acid and do something stupid like throw a bottle at a local commercial fisherman's boat which has the potential for serious injury and a likelihood of a fish-kill in a small water bay area. The EPA will have a field day with that. Their defense ? They saw it on Whale Wars.



Approximately 80% of people in this country believe that animal activists are working on our behalf and helping animals. This is false. Very few animal activists organizations provide needed care for animals , it is about the money , not animals. Again , there is a LOT and I mean A LOT of misinformation out there.

Facts and truth are very important in a sea of falsehoods. Sadly , this is a bit of a losing battle. These animal groups have TV shows , magazines , websites , books , associations and clubs to join , merchandise and even several entire TV channels.
Sounds a bit like a corporation , doesn't it ? That because it is , and a tax free one at that. It is about the money , not the animals.

These animal rights organizations are your worst enemy. Trust me on that.

Me ? I am your friend. I am trying to help you understand the truth , point out who are the real animal lovers are and who are out for your money.

Plus , I am not going to ask you for one red cent. I am not interested in your money , but I do care about animals and help out hundreds every year. I have saved countless lives and will save countless more.

I can agree to disagree with you , but we can both agree on one thing , we both want what the best for the animals.

I am sorry if my replies to your posts offended you , I was just looking for others who read those posts to be given the truth instead of the garbage the slanted media spews.


Now , On a lighter side , please read my next post , a bit long , but worth a chuckle.

 

[Cragar]

Car Wars

( a fictional post )

Today major news outlets announced a new TV program with a new name - ' Car Wars '

This show will focus on the slaughter and waste of precious endangered dino juice. Racer Saul Dotson will lead his band of eco-friendly cohorts in soybean powered mini-motorhomes to search the vast roadways for rouge gas guzzling dino juice burners. "Over 50 countries have signed the Kyoto protocol/Global Warming/Green power bill banning the wasteful consumption of dino juice" Said Dotson . " We feel that aboriginal burning of dino fuels in developing countries is wrong and we want to stop that but , We have a more pressing issue with the exploitation of scientific or experimental permits used by some as a way to burn dino fuels with a permit granted by the International Racing Commission. "

This week's show highlights brought to you by generous donors at *ww,giveyourmoneytocarwars,com*

This week's show opens with racer Saul Dotson rallying the crew to go after his favorite target of wasteful dino burning. The Japanese fleet. < the crowd goes wild - catcalls >

Dotson holds a meeting in the soy powered solar enhanced mini motorhome with his vegan pit crew. They discuss plans of attack , how to harass dino fiends and wonder where the Japanese fleet is right now. Suddenly , Saul's cell phone rings. " Un ha , yep . OK , thanks " Saul hangs up his phone. It was Wheelpeace , THEY HAVE SPOTTED THE JAPANESE FLEET !!!!! < loud applause >

Saul's vegan pit crew jumps into action following the soy powered mini-motorhome with a pair of Pelosi xiGT sport coupes as chase vehicles. They drive to a racetrack where Wheelpeace said they had spotted the Japanese fleet. Just as the team reaches the gates of the racetrack you can hear the drone of loud exhausts sending dino juice to a fiery death.< break for commercial >

" Hi , Saul Dotson here. Thank you for watching our program. We need you to continue sending donations to *ww,giveallyourmoneytocarwars,com* so we can stop the dino fuel junkies from burning our precious supply instead of soy based fuels. We need your donations because as you know we pledge to never use any dino fuels and soy fuel costs 5X as much with half the octane. So please pledge us a gift of any amount you can afford , even if it is only a couple dollars saved from your social security check or allowance from mom and dad . We need every dollar you can send. Thank You and remember only dorks burn dino. " < return to program >

<camera pans in to Saul's face as he contemplates his next move > With a gritty determination he turns to the camera and speaks " You hear that ? That is the sound of dino fuel being gobbled up and sent to a fiery grave in hades. This makes me so mad that Japanese fleet gets scientific or experimental permits to so-called 'test' super chargers or turbos. This is crap. They just get the permits so they can have lots of fun and burn up dino. Well , That is going to stop now. I do not care if they have permits or not." < Saul mashes the gas to the floor and the mini-motorhome lurches forward to the track >

< the mini motor home does a sideways drift across the paddock area a la 'the A team' and comes to rest looking down the track > " LOOK , there they are" screams a waif-like teen girl crewmember. < camera pans down the track > " Yep , just as I thought , NSX's. It is the Japanese fleet alright " says Saul. " We have been after this bunch for awhile" Saul beckons pit crew to prepare for the first assault. They man the water cannons on top of the mini-motorhome and train their focus on a black NSX approching nearby. " We are just going to spray water at the Japanese as they enter that tight turn. It will force them to slow down and save dino juice " Saul barks. As the car enters the turn they blast the track with massive amounts of water. The NSX struggles at first pushing a wave of water across the front of the bumper and almost stalling out but , the tactic fails as the black NSX gains momentum and emerges from the water and enters the next turn. " Yeah , he got lucky this time. Stupid fool will probably be posting their escape on YouTube calling it NSX submarine or something." laments Saul.

Then , a bit of luck and it appears........The Zanardi-Maru.....The mothership < break to commercial >

< young female crewmember with tattoos and many piercings appears on the TV screen > " Hi . I am Daphne and a pit crew member for Car Wars. I care about saving the dino juice and you should too. Go to *ww,giveallofyourmoneytocarwarsnow,com* and make a donation and you will feel good. I did. " < return to program >

<camera pans in on the mothership - The Zanardi-Maru > " See that " says Saul " that one is the worst offender. It was specially designed to burn more dino juice faster than the rest. It is an abomination. All these manics want one. Don't worry we are going to get him. " Saul deploys the two Pelosi xiGT sport coupe chase cars after the Zanardi-Maru. The chase cars disappear and Saul picks up the radio and starts shouting commands. " Get in front of the Zanardi-Maru and lay out the spike strips. If we can disable them in the middle of the track , we can stop the whole fleet from burning dino today " < long pause - no response > " Chase cars , chase cars , respond , over" < long pause - static > " Where are these idiots ? Did anyone tell them to turn the radios on ? " < static >

< after 30 minutes of no contact the chase cars return > " Where were you , How come you did not turn your radio on " Growls Saul. The crewmember replys " Someone forgot to charge the solar battery charger array. " " Well , what happened to the Zanardi-Maru " asks Saul " He was way too fast , we tried several times to get him with the spike strips but he got around us every time. then we lost the spike strips in the bushes. We almost got hit several times getting in their way. They did not even care. " replied the crewman. " One of them in an Imola NSX threw a coffee cup at us when we did not get out of the way " he quickly added. < camera zooms in on a paper Starducks cup 12 oz with lid > " See that " says Saul as he turns to face the camera " These people are going to hurt someone , they will stop at nothing to get in a full track day burning dino even if they have to hurt someone by throwing cups at them." < end show - credits >



Join us next week for a new episode of Car Wars as danger on the track almost causes a crewmember to be run over at the Nuremberg with the guys driving f-cars. *ww.giveallofyourdangmoneytocarwarsnow,com*

 

[TURBO2GO]

Come on Crager... you are joking, right? You have the monopoly on facts and everyone else is misinformed? Butyric acid poisoning the ocean? You know there is acid in Coca Cola, right? In orange juice? In your stomach? Cheese has Butyric acid. Now you are concerned about the 12 ounce bag of this poisoning the ocean. LOL...

The way I look at it, the world's largest creature, a mamal, an intelligent creature that lives a long time, protects its young, does no harm to humans in any way, gets a metal rod shoved through its brain for swimming in the wrong place....

why? so that some guy can make an extra buck and buy himself a fancier car. I'll put up with the 12 ounces of *WATER SOLUABLE* acid going into the ocean alongside the millions of barrels of polutants we throw in the whale's living quarters everyday.

I think all you guys that are all worried about a bag of harmless powder going onto a killing machine's boat really don't know what is going on. If you simply saw that whale's life, if you watched it from birth, watched it grow, feed, care for its young, then get its blood splattered all over its body, and knew what the Japanese boat was doing with that money, you'd be a lot less worried about the tactics. Even if everything those guys do is wrong, they are at least raising awareness. If it wasn't for those guys, who would even know what the Japanese boats are doing while absolutely NO ONE is watching?

 

[MetalSpikeRacing]

Come on Crager... you are joking, right? You have the monopoly on facts and everyone else is misinformed? Butyric acid poisoning the ocean? You know there is acid in Coca Cola, right? In orange juice? In your stomach? Cheese has Butyric acid. Now you are concerned about the 12 ounce bag of this poisoning the ocean. LOL...

The way I look at it, the world's largest creature, a mamal, an intelligent creature that lives a long time, protects its young, does no harm to humans in any way, gets a metal rod shoved through its brain for swimming in the wrong place....

why? so that some guy can make an extra buck and buy himself a fancier car. I'll put up with the 12 ounces of *WATER SOLUABLE* acid going into the ocean alongside the millions of barrels of polutants we throw in the whale's living quarters everyday.

I think all you guys that are all worried about a bag of harmless powder going onto a killing machine's boat really don't know what is going on. If you simply saw that whale's life, if you watched it from birth, watched it grow, feed, care for its young, then get its blood splattered all over its body, and knew what the Japanese boat was doing with that money, you'd be a lot less worried about the tactics. Even if everything those guys do is wrong, they are at least raising awareness. If it wasn't for those guys, who would even know what the Japanese boats are doing while absolutely NO ONE is watching?

Turbo2go is right, that little amount of accid will not do any harm with amount of water that is in the ocean, dont be a Donkey.

Cragar, are you writing of all this from the Nisshin Maru ? looks like you really have lots of time on your hands.


-MSR

 

[Cragar]

Come on Crager... you are joking, right? You have the monopoly on facts and everyone else is misinformed? Butyric acid poisoning the ocean? You know there is acid in Coca Cola, right? In orange juice? In your stomach? Cheese has Butyric acid. Now you are concerned about the 12 ounce bag of this poisoning the ocean. LOL...

why? so that some guy can make an extra buck and buy himself a fancier car. I'll put up with the 12 ounces of *WATER SOLUABLE* acid going into the ocean alongside the millions of barrels of polutants we throw in the whale's living quarters everyday.

Turbo2go,

Please look back at my prior post. Go to this link. http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1334.html

You must have missed this part -

SPILLAGE DISPOSAL
Collect leaking liquid in sealable containers. Cautiously neutralize remainder with soda lime. Then wash away with plenty of water. Do NOT let this chemical enter the environment. (Extra personal protection: complete protective clothing including self-contained breathing apparatus).

Did you notice that ? Do NOT let this chemical enter the environment.

That is a bit of a stern warning. We are talking spill control procedures. Plus high level HazMat PPE for the clean-up.

Did you see this part ? -


ENVIRONMENTAL
DATA
The substance is harmful to aquatic organisms.


Most aquatic organisms are HIGHLY sensitive to foreign substances in their environment. Most chemicals will have extra warnings about exposure to water. The reason behind this is some fish are so sensitive that if you used a standard can of bug spray in the same room as a tank of tropical fish even if it was 20 feet away facing the other direction , you may kill the fish in an aquarium. Ever seen the warning ' Cover all aquariums before using this product ' ?

Yes , a quart bottle in a sea of billions of gallons does not seem significant but if a fish is in the wrong place when they are washing decks , you could have a problem. Some species will definitely be affected by a chemical like this even if diluted to 5ppm . Deck wash if not properly neutralized does have a real danger potential for certain fish if the come in close contact with the deck wash as it enters the environment.

US Coast Guard standard for the definition of how much oil constituents a ' spill ' , in other words , How many gallon/barrels is enough to call it a ' spill '

Answer - " Enough to be able to visualize a sheen on the surface of the water " in other words - One (1) drop. One drop of oil will create a sheen on the water. Do you think if you dropped 1 quart of oil at the 200 mile marker from the US coast into billions of gallons of seawater the coast guard would not try to stop you if they were right next to you ? ( It's billions of gallons of water , it won't hurt anything , Right ? )

If you don't agree with NIOSH , ask your local water control authority how they would feel about someone throwing this into a body of water populated with fish stocks.



Funny , if the shoe was on the other foot and an animal rights group saw someone throw this into a body of water after reading the warnings they would have the accused hanging by their toenails.

 

[TURBO2GO]

25 MINUTES for this whale to die as it struggled. Shot 6 times.


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[Cragar]

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[TURBO2GO]

LOL.... Thanks for that amazing piece of journalism Crager. Makes me really think it's just fine to have the whale go through a 30 minute death.

 

[Hasdrubal]

How many of the people here who disapprove of whaling are vegetarians? 25 minutes to die seems very cruel, yes, but would you feel better if the guns were big enough to kill quickly? Or would it be just as bad?

What makes it acceptable to eat chicken and beef, but not whale? How about dog, or cat, or horse? The French eat horse, and I don't hear nearly the same amount of criticism as for the Koreans eating dogs. Of course, fewer of us have pet horses.

Seriously, though. Is it the lack of quick and efficient killing techniques? If it were a different species of whale, I could see the endangered species aspect, but the Minke that the Japanese hunt is listed as 'least concern,' and yes, I looked at more than Wikipedia to find that.

I suspect it's more because we like whales. Just as we like dogs. Really, we're just saying "you can't eat that because I think it's cute." If that be the case, it's most likely hypocritical. The Hindus believe cows are sacred, and pretty much nobody cares what they think.

Including me. I'm having steak for dinner.

Nick

BTW, I actually think whaling should stop. I just don't think we need international piracy to be the vehicle for change.

 

[TURBO2GO]

How many of the people here who disapprove of whaling are vegetarians? 25 minutes to die seems very cruel, yes, but would you feel better if the guns were big enough to kill quickly? Or would it be just as bad?

What makes it acceptable to eat chicken and beef, but not whale? How about dog, or cat, or horse? The French eat horse, and I don't hear nearly the same amount of criticism as for the Koreans eating dogs. Of course, fewer of us have pet horses.

Seriously, though. Is it the lack of quick and efficient killing techniques? If it were a different species of whale, I could see the endangered species aspect, but the Minke that the Japanese hunt is listed as 'least concern,' and yes, I looked at more than Wikipedia to find that.

I suspect it's more because we like whales. Just as we like dogs. Really, we're just saying "you can't eat that because I think it's cute." If that be the case, it's most likely hypocritical. The Hindus believe cows are sacred, and pretty much nobody cares what they think.

Including me. I'm having steak for dinner.

Nick

BTW, I actually think whaling should stop. I just don't think we need international piracy to be the vehicle for change.

so then why do YOU think it should stop?

 

[Hasdrubal]

Well, partly because I think they're cute. Completely illogical reason, but I'm okay with it because I understand that, so I don't feel like a hypocrite.

The more important reason, and the only one I feel could be used as a basis for legislation, is that they are among the more intelligent animals. Same reason I don't think we should eat dolphins or chimpanzees. Unless you take a fundamentally religious view of life, there are only two things that make human beings special. First, I'm a human. As is everyone who might read this. Second, we are intelligent. Chimps and certain birds use tools. There is an argument about whether a particular African Grey parrot learned english beyond rote memorization.

Those species that are endangered should also be forbidden to hunt because they are endangered. 99% of all the species that have ever lived are already extinct, the vast majority before human beings walked the earth. Although I don't really feel bad if a species bites the dust for natural causes, I would feel pretty bad making an omlette out of California Condor eggs.

Nick

 

[TURBO2GO]

When I watch that video, it bothers me. Perhaps it doesn't bother some people like Crager. To me, 30 minutes to die a slow death is something needless. To someone else, it's fine. If you can watch that video of the whale run while being chased by 3 boats (it is fully aware it is being chased and they go to the their maximum capability), then having a harpoon miss and go through its body, watch it flap around and struggle for 30 minutes while some clown on a boat uses a rifle to try to kill it, and you are fine with that, then I have nothing against you. Each human being has to do what they feel is right. So long as you don't turn blind as to how it is done. So long as you don't get on a political soapbox, talk about activists and terrorists, Japanese and Australians, left or right or your particular idealogy.... because no matter, the whale dies, usually a slow, painful death.

I accept the fact that to some, this action is perfectly fine. To me, it is not. I do not understand Crager, because I do not understand how he can watch that and not care about this live being. Perhaps he cannot understand me. I guess that is how the world is.

Anyway, I think I have said enough, and this is not a pleasant subject for me so I am going back to NSX talk.

 

[Cragar]

When I watch that video, it bothers me. Perhaps it doesn't bother some people like Crager. To me, 30 minutes to die a slow death is something needless. To someone else, it's fine. If you can watch that video of the whale run while being chased by 3 boats (it is fully aware it is being chased and they go to the their maximum capability), then having a harpoon miss and go through its body, watch it flap around and struggle for 30 minutes while some clown on a boat uses a rifle to try to kill it, and you are fine with that, then I have nothing against you. Each human being has to do what they feel is right. So long as you don't turn blind as to how it is done. So long as you don't get on a political soapbox, talk about activists and terrorists, Japanese and Australians, left or right or your particular idealogy.... because no matter, the whale dies, usually a slow, painful death.

I accept the fact that to some, this action is perfectly fine. To me, it is not. I do not understand Crager, because I do not understand how he can watch that and not care about this live being. Perhaps he cannot understand me. I guess that is how the world is.

Anyway, I think I have said enough, and this is not a pleasant subject for me so I am going back to NSX talk.

Thanks for stating my opinion , or what you THINK is my opinion.

You are WRONG as usual.



I am awaiting your apology.

 

[Hasdrubal]

Well, I'm still not clear on Turbo2go's reasoning. Would a larger caliber of rifle, or a new harpoon that causes more bleeding and therefore a faster death, be acceptable?

Is it the manner of the hunt, or the hunt itself that causes distress? Is there something special about the whale, or should all meat be placed off-limits as food? A case could be made that to kill wild animals is less cruel than to raise them in cramped conditions, worse than what we would have accepted for human slaves in years past (minus the whips).

Does anyone know what Thanksgiving tofurkey tastes like?

Nick

 

[TURBO2GO]

Would a larger caliber of rifle, or a new harpoon that causes more bleeding and therefore a faster death, be acceptable?..

You can see how unprepared even the Japanese fleet is as the guy tried to shoot the struggling whale in the video off the bow of a ship with a shotgun. I think any method that does not prolong death and pain would be preferable. The current method for hunting whales is archaic. It is slow, and painful for this animal.

Is it the manner of the hunt, or the hunt itself that causes distress?

In the case of whales, the manner is poor at best.

Is there something special about the whale, or should all meat be placed off-limits as food?

For some, no meat is the way. For others, only certain types of hunt and kill are acceptable. For others, any manner of kill to any animal is just fine. Many people consume certain meats, but they have no desire to know where it came from or how it came about. Ask yourself what it takes to make a 99 cent hamburger that comes with a free toy.

 

[Hasdrubal]

Fair enough, and I respect your opinion. I don't like unnecessary cruelty either. I personally have no problem with meat, and I think great steps have been taken over the years to limit the suffering of chickens, cows, etc. More could be done, of course, but I feel no guilt over my burgers.

Like you, I know what I believe, and why I believe it.

Nick

Edit: just read this article- maybe I was wrong about the chickens...
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20090901/D9AEI2F01.html