Valve cover gaskets and timing belt question

[Old Guy]

I am collecting the parts for an eventual timing belt job. I was looking at the parts list prepared by Larry B. which includes two of 12341-PR7-A01. This is a kit which includes the actual valve cover gasket, 3 plug seals and 6 washer / seal things. Two of these kits will set me back about $120 US + shipping. For those of you who have done a cam belt job, I understand the risk associated with distortion of the actual O ring style valve cover gasket. Do you really need the spark plug seals and washer seal things? The valve cover gasket by itself is just $46 for two.

Also, has anybody tried the Mahle valve cover gasket kit VS50400? This includes the valve cover gaskets and all the seals in the Honda kit for about $60 for both heads. Mahle is a European OEM supplier and I have used the parts in the past on Euro cars and they are not junk. If I should do all the seals, then the Mahle kit is attractive. If I just really need the valve cover gasket then I will probably go OEM.

And since I am always looking for a bargain, I stumbled across this:

http://www.miparts.com/detail/timing-belt_10589#.Xq8FXG_saR0

I am thinking probably not! However, does anybody have experience with the Gates timing belt for the NSX? Unitta is the listed vendor for the NSX OEM timing belt and from what I can tell Gates is Unitta or Unitta is Gates or Uniita is owned by Gates or ... you get the idea. If I order from Honda am I getting a Gates belt or if I order Gates from Rock Auto am I getting a Unitta belt?

 

[Honcho]

View attachment TB-WP Service list.pdf

Attached is the list I worked up for my 1992. I puled it from the giant spreadsheet I maintain for the entire project. These parts are strictly for the timing belt and water pump service- I have a different chart with stuff for what I call my "engine refresh service," which is about $700 worth of O-rings and bolts. It may be slightly different for your NA2. Note that I am changing both my crank pulley (have to because AT-->MT) and my crank position sensor. I recommend the pulley every other TB job and the sensor only if the potting is badly melted, which mine is.

I'm generally ok with many of the aftermarket rubber gasket parts and have had success with them. I strongly suspect many of them come out of the same molds as the OEM and are packaged for aftermarket. However, for the timing belt, I would stick with mother Honda. While a valve cover gasket leaking is a minor annoyance, the timing belt is so critical to the engine that I'm not sure I would trust a belt from someone else. Though, they have to build that belt to Honda's specs, so...

I recommend changing the spark plug seals because you can get oil leaks and the washer seals have a crush factor built into them that is important for proper torquing and gasket mating pressure.

Hope this helps.

 

[ralph cerbone]

As far as valve cover kit I have got a victor reinz (same part# vs50400) and a acura set ,they are identical . My original acura gaskets were grey ,all new ones are black , i'd use them . When it comes to timing belt only oem Unitta (made in Japan ) , I'am doing my belt this spring , I bought a oem from Tim Polinack . When it comes to Gates I stay away from them for Japanese cars , only Bando made in Japan ,much more expensive .

 

[Old Guy]

I was just working from a list that Larry B did back in 2013 for a 1999 (minus the ABS stuff for my 2000)http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...belt-kit-job?p=1666389&viewfull=1#post1666389

As far as valve cover kit I have got a victor reinz (same part# vs50400) and a acura set ,they are identical . My original acura gaskets were grey ,all new ones are black , i'd use them . When it comes to timing belt only oem Unitta (made in Japan ) , I'am doing my belt this spring , I bought a oem from Tim Polinack . When it comes to Gates I stay away from them for Japanese cars , only Bando made in Japan ,much more expensive .

So, I wonder does Reinz make the Mahle part or does Mahle make the Reinz part? Good to know that the fit works out. My question about the Gates belt is because the info I can find suggests that the Gates belts are Unitta and are made in Japan.I am replacing the water pump; but, was not planning on new water pump bolts with the red sealant on the threads. I seem to recall comments about using Hondabond on the threads if reusing the bolts. I assume that this is part # 08718-0003 flange sealant as opposed to the Hondabond HT (08718-0004)?

 

[drew]

I had a chat with Gates corporate a while back. Their source is OEM, but they sell less worldwide than the MOQ [of 100 units], are unlikely to replenish their aged stock and will likely drop the part.

Honda doesn't appear to date code their parts.

The question about any of these parts: If a timing belt is 30-year-old New Old Stock (NOS), is it serviceable when the Factory calls for a 9-year replacement schedule regardless of use?

I use Gates products whenever I have a choice and have had great results over 30 years.

 

[ralph cerbone]

I don't know if reinz or mahle makes the v/c gaskets , all i know is there identical . Gates went thru some corporate mergers , the belt i have says made in japan , my son is a mechanical engineer ,he designs concrete anchors (3 patents under his belt before he was 26 yrs old ) .His family owned company was acquired by a large hardware and tool company , then the corporate b/s started. Hopefully Unitta was able to maintain their quality.

 

[Miner]

I had a chat with Gates corporate a while back. Their source is OEM, but they sell less worldwide than the MOQ [of 100 units], are unlikely to replenish their aged stock and will likely drop the part.

Honda doesn't appear to date code their parts.

The question about any of these parts: If a timing belt is 30-year-old New Old Stock (NOS), is it serviceable when the Factory calls for a 9-year replacement schedule regardless of use?

I use Gates products whenever I have a choice and have had great results over 30 years.

If kept out of sunlight, high temps and very low temps, most rubber products last a long, long time. As long as it doesn’t get chemicals spilled on it.

YMMV, but if kept in a sealed package, even a 30 year old belt would almost 100% assuredly last the 7-9 year Honda recommended interval.

Miner

 

[MotorMouth93]

I don't know why you'd try to save ~$50 on parts that get changed every 7-9 years. Aftermarket gaskets are hit or miss at best, in the BMW world Victor Reinz is considered garbage. (and TBF OEM BMW parts aren't much better but that's another issue)

 

[tucsonsx]

My experience is exactly like yours - in fact I believe that marginal gaskets are one of the biggest problems European cars have in general. Eurozone regulations to use recycled plastics is the other big problem causing high maintenance costs.

 

[Miner]

I don't know why you'd try to save ~$50 on parts that get changed every 7-9 years. Aftermarket gaskets are hit or miss at best, in the BMW world Victor Reinz is considered garbage. (and TBF OEM BMW parts aren't much better but that's another issue)

I don’t think anybody is trying to save $50. The questions are more about availability and quality. As our cars have aged and gone out of production, the most premium brands may not produce parts they once did. Creates a bit of a conundrum.

 

[MotorMouth93]

I don’t think anybody is trying to save $50. The questions are more about availability and quality. As our cars have aged and gone out of production, the most premium brands may not produce parts they once did. Creates a bit of a conundrum.

The first post in this thread is literally about saving money by not buying the OEM gasket kits.

 

[Miner]

The first post in this thread is literally about saving money by not buying the OEM gasket kits.

My bad. I got wrapped around the axle on aged timing belts.

 

[Old Guy]

While we are on the timing belt thing, does anybody know what is up with the timing belt part numbers? Is 14400-PR7-A01 an Acura only or a specific North American part number. If you enter it into the Amayama or JP-Carparts search function you come up with unavailable or out of production. If you use 06141-PR7-305 or 06141-PR7-315 (seems to be the superceded part #) you will get a hit on the part at both Amayama and JP-Carparts. Cross reference lists suggest that these are all the same part although the 06141-PR7-305 is described as a kit which includes some kind of label (date of change?).

Are the

06141-PR7-305 or 06141-PR7-315 numbers non North American part numbers? That would seem odd because just about all of the Acura NSX part numbers are consistent with Honda NSX part numbers (except specific LHD items) and usually get a hit on Amayama or JP-Carparts. I can understand different part numbers for Oz and the Kiwi's because rumour has it that just like the Coriolis force the engines have to spin in the reverse direction south of the equator :wink:.


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[NSXGB]

I'm no expert but I believe the A in the A01 part of the part number does relate to American parts.

 

[NSX_n00b]

I'm no expert but I believe the A in the A01 part of the part number does relate to American parts.

I believe you are right...I found this secret decoder ring a year or so back when I was doing some investigation...not sure if it's 100% accurate:

https://www.piloteers.org/threads/decoding-honda-part-numbers.8151/

 

[drew]

Before the freely available online parts databases, I extracted and created an HTML version that could be used on any device.
It lives on with BrianK (he also provides a downloadable zip for those who want it. It still has use nowadays it has LARGE DIAGRAMS. I did botch the AT images)
http://nsxe-repair.com/files/acuraparts/acuraparts/index.html

Here is what I discovered

Basic Part Numbers break down
XXXXX-MMM-SSS

X = Basic part number
M = Original vehicle model
S = Version suffix

For a localized part, it appears that the suffix starts with the following:
A = America
J = Japan
E = Europe (notably on parts having to with exterior lights and switches)

The suffix first production starts out at "000" and any revisions are incremented by one.

If the part is localized the suffix starts with the area letter followed by the version number: A00, J01, etc...


>I don’t think anybody is trying to save $50.

Honda doesn't make much of anything, everything is outsourced. Supporting the aftermarket parts pipeline keeps small businesses in operation, reduces MOQ, keeps the parts in production. If I can find the same or better part for less: I'll buy it over Dealer parts.

It's why there are so many parts around from DaliRacing and SoS.

I'm "one of those guys". Because $50 is $50. It doesn't matter my current net worth: I still remember the back-breaking, mind-numbing, and soul-sucking work I used to perform for $3.35/hr and the government would take 30% off the top from my paycheck. I remember the 80's of 15% interest and no jobs (Millenials you got nothing compared to those coming of age in the stagflation era). Saving $50 at the end of week was a good week. Fast forward 20 years of scrimping, saving and I didn't have to worry about much ever again. But if I didn't have that attitude of saving where I can: I would likely still be poor or at least paycheck to paycheck.

Even nowadays I relentlessly drive down costs and simplify procedures at home and at work. It's simply what a good engineer does, though I'll admit it does drive everybody nuts.

rant
The biggest reason I don't have an F car in my garage is that it would emotionally kill me to pay dealer cost on nearly everything. If you don't support your aftermarket folks then the Factory and Dealers start acting like Ferrari and John Deere where you simply cannot service your vehicle without direct Dealer interaction. I keep looking at F cars, but the SD3 computer needs a pricey annual subscription and that means I'm pretty much limited to an F360, which is a good car, which uses an SD2.

The Corvette C8 OS is encrypted, so we'll see how that works.

I don't like this vehicle ownership is a subscription model, but that is where we are going and apparently I'm just old now.
/rant

 

[Miner]

>I don’t think anybody is trying to save $50.

I just didn’t feel like going down that rabbit hole.

 

[Old Guy]

Here is what I discovered

Basic Part Numbers break down
XXXXX-MMM-SSS

X = Basic part number
M = Original vehicle model
S = Version suffix

For a localized part, it appears that the suffix starts with the following:
A = America
J = Japan
E = Europe (notably on parts having to with exterior lights and switches)

The suffix first production starts out at "000" and any revisions are incremented by one.

If the part is localized the suffix starts with the area letter followed by the version number: A00, J01, etc...

So …. the North American TB is

14400-PR7-A01 and the non North American TB is

06141-PR7-305 (or the later 315), does the fact that the basic part number is different imply that the part is different? The cam pulleys on the JDM and NA cars have the same part numbers so I had assumed there would be one belt for all C30 and C32 engines.

Maybe the 06141 is a real Unitta belt and the 14400 is as listed on the Acura parts listing a Unit Ta knock-off?

Belt, Timing (Unit Ta) - Acura (14400-PR7-A01)
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I am a little bit like Drew. Its not so much that I want to save $50 (or more like $150 Cdn in the case of the Gates vs

14400-PR7-A01). Its more that I would like to know that I am actually getting something for that additional $150.​

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[drew]

[MENTION=26435]Old Guy[/MENTION] welp, you bring up an excellent contradiction.

This is strange, there should be absolutely no difference for the timing belt. I can only guess and none of them are good reasons.

I did a quick search on the JDM number for other Honda cars and they only show up on JP part sites, and the same with the American part number and sites.

As a database guy this would drive me nuts to have the same item with two different part numbers. The aftermarket suppliers properly cross-index these numbers.

 

[nis350]

Thanks again. it is very helpful.

It appears that all of those oil pan gaskets are all likely OEM as those companies are all distributers. They are even using the same stock photo. You can pay more, but you'll be getting the same part.

You're in luck, the Fel Pro is on close out for $7, I would buy a couple.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/partsearch/?partnum=11251PH7000
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=8196712&cc=1000843&jsn=2136

I personally would go with the most cost-effective part that is shipped from the same warehouse as the exhaust gaskets, but pretty hard to beat $7.

FYI: I bought some OEM NSX tensioner bearings for $1/ea last year on closeout, I bought 4x because the shipping cost more after 4x units. They are the genuine item.

 

[Kaz-kzukNA1]

TB itself is the same between the two. Very old photo but you can get the idea.

06141 is for the Japanese market.
Same TB but comes with extra bits as in Japan, it's fairly common practice to display the last TB service date/mileage somewhere on the engine or on the chassis.

Also, it comes inside the parts bag to minimise the risk of contamination.
When I used to travel a lot, I even placed the TB inside the cabin carry-on luggage.

14400 is exposed and held by simple plastic band with parts No label on it.

Kaz

 

[Old Guy]

TB itself is the same between the two. Very old photo but you can get the idea.

06141 is for the Japanese market.
Same TB but comes with extra bits as in Japan, it's fairly common practice to display the last TB service date/mileage somewhere on the engine or on the chassis.

Also, it comes inside the parts bag to minimise the risk of contamination.
When I used to travel a lot, I even placed the TB inside the cabin carry-on luggage.

14400 is exposed and held by simple plastic band with parts No label on it.

Kaz

Excellent information. I can source the 06141 'kit' at a lower price than the 14400 part.

 

[The King]

I clicked on Amayama yesterday and it came up that they wouldn't ship to Canada. Nothing wrong in saving a few bucks for sure, but I would probably not gamble with a non OEM belt.

 

[Old Guy]

I clicked on Amayama yesterday and it came up that they wouldn't ship to Canada. Nothing wrong in saving a few bucks for sure, but I would probably not gamble with a non OEM belt.

Did you search using the 14400 part number? If so, that definitely comes up with the no shipping to Canada message. If you search for North American specific parts you will get different messages from Amayama which all have the same result - can't be supplied. I discovered this when I ordered the replacement coolant hoses for my car. Amayama had most of them except the four up front that are specific to the LHD cars. I had to order those from Delray. If you enter the non North American

06141-PR7-315 part number (which appears to be the updated version of 06141-PR7-305) you will get a hit for the timing belt kit on Amayama.

Interesting detail. I ordered the bulk of the hoses, a new water pump and some other bits from Amayama and the big box of parts arrived about 2 weeks ago. I ordered a small box of the 4 hoses from Delray at the same time and they just arrived yesterday. The shipping costs for the big box from Amayama was slightly less than the small box from Delray. Both packages were tracked and insured and came through the postal system. It has been my general experience that for whatever reason the order turn around time from Amayama is very fast. That might be because the US discount vendors don't stock the part so they have to order from Honda and then repack to ship to me.
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<strike></strike>

 

[drew]

Behold my bagged 14400 timing belt

View attachment 164788
[MENTION=25737]Kaz-kzukNA1[/MENTION]

Can you tell me what is going on with my Timing Belt service sticker? I cannot determine what the date is telling me...