V8 performance with four cylinder fuel economy?? Does that mean 40mpgs???

Joined
15 May 2004
Messages
5,066
Location
Bloomfield ,Mi
People keep talking/speculating on NSX HP and it's targets but all those targets have really REALLY crappy fuel economy. New 911 isn't too bad but GM just topped them with the Vette getting a 29mpg highway with word being it actually can top 30. I bring this up because if this car is going to get past Ito it's going to have to have superior fuel economy.

Boosted six isn't known for MPG. If the hybrid motors are all tuned for maximum performance then economy suffers (we saw this with the first Accord hybrid that was geared for performance). Guess we'll know more when the RLX hybrid comes out. Base fwd RLX is nothing to write home about though.

If the NSX does get the rumored 9spd dct then it will be close. Pretty sure the won't let GM beat them out on MPG.
 
I doubt it will surpass the vette or the base 911, especially on the highway. The base 911 is <3,200 lbs with a highly efficient motor for its displacement and number of cylinders; it also has the new 7 spd PDK and 7 spd manual with what is essentially a highway only gear. The vette is just under 3,300 lbs and has excellent gearing for the highway combined with above average aero's. It might be able to best them in city driving with what ever gimmicks they come up with. I think seeing 35+mpg on the highway and 30mpg+ mixed is going to be one hell of a stretch. As long as the fuel mileage is pretty good I'd be satisfied. The performance should not be sacrificed for fuel mileage's sake; that is simply not rational when spending $120k on a sports car.
 
If Honda is using the hybrid for performance, fuel economy will not be a priority. Nor do I think anyone really cares.
 
One does not buy this vehicle and think MPG as a priority. If you want MPG look at another hybrid.
 
My 21 year old high performance V6 can get 29-30 mpg on the hwy. I think the new V6, even if turbo could get over 30 mpg alone, especially with 7 or more gears.
 
I doubt it will surpass the vette or the base 911, especially on the highway. The base 911 is <3,200 lbs with a highly efficient motor for its displacement and number of cylinders; it also has the new 7 spd PDK and 7 spd manual with what is essentially a highway only gear. The vette is just under 3,300 lbs and has excellent gearing for the highway combined with above average aero's. It might be able to best them in city driving with what ever gimmicks they come up with. I think seeing 35+mpg on the highway and 30mpg+ mixed is going to be one hell of a stretch. As long as the fuel mileage is pretty good I'd be satisfied. The performance should not be sacrificed for fuel mileage's sake; that is simply not rational when spending $120k on a sports car.

It's not that you'd have to be satisfied it's Ito. Captain Green at Honda wanting everything to be fuel efficient with the promise that it would be.

My boosted LSx gets better MPG than my boosted V6 vehicles.

At the end of the day domestic v8 is the best powerplant for MPGs and power.

GM did a lot of trick with the new one.

If Honda is using the hybrid for performance, fuel economy will not be a priority. Nor do I think anyone really cares.

Like I said before Ito cares and that is a mandate for the car and fuel economy is just as high a priority as the rest of the cars performance.

My 21 year old high performance V6 can get 29-30 mpg on the hwy. I think the new V6, even if turbo could get over 30 mpg alone, especially with 7 or more gears.
What Bats is saying below

maybe with direct injection, but usually when u forced induce a car u have to lower the compression ratio, retard the timing, dump more fuel. Any and all of these have an adverse effect on MPGs at all levels.
Exactly. The TT 911 and the GTR aren't all that great for MPG.
 
The Vetts have been getting 30MPG for a while its nothing new. The C5 I had was getting that in 1997. It has a lot to do with the gearing and low end torque.
I don't expect the NSX to sell all that well in the states. Economy, better available options, and looks are going to push people away. Its out of the price range of most NSX enthusiasts. It has to destroy everything remotely close in price to even compete. The only reason I can see someone wanting one is to be different or to get a low production number to sell down the road for a profit.
 
maybe with direct injection, but usually when u forced induce a car u have to lower the compression ratio, retard the timing, dump more fuel. Any and all of these have an adverse effect on MPGs at all levels.

I beg to differ. I build high hp turbocharger vehicles everyday that exceed MPG of most hybrids nowadays. High compression, a good combustion chamber design (basically an engine with an incredible VE) and a little boost goes a long way; especially allowing a nice lean burn without detrimental effect to the engine. What should be considered when building a high HP small displacement engine is getting the engine to be as efficient as possible before the boost is introduced. It sounds crazy to some but it works..extremely well. The average 500 WHP 1.6 liter setup I build gets 38-44MPG depending on off boost conditions vs boost conditions and/or gear ratios. The average 600WHP 1.9-2.0 liter setup gets 34-38MPG. All of these setups will have no less than 6k rpm of usable power band which is more than most offerings today. My CRX made 638WHP on 93 octane and it has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Because of the aggressive nature of the cams it only get 28mpg, but it also makes over 1000BHP with the right type of fuel and more boost so it is a compromise I can live with. The last 5 speed turbo NSX I tuned is averaging 30-32MPG with a best highway MPG of 35. Granted, the type of work I do to achieve these figures is not what the OEM wants to do, but if they really wanted to make something that performed and got great mileage they would do more than just give it more selectable gears and/or longer gear ratios.

A V8 and up is the worst for fuel economy based off its sheer displacement, and rotational/frictional losses on its own and I won't even get into how terrible the cylinder heads are on the domestic side of things. Even if they turn off cylinders its still just dead weight being thrown around that the other cylinders have to work to turn. The only thing a corvette has going for it is ridiculously long gear ratios just to keep it at near ilde when cruising on the highway. It still has a terrible VE; a very inefficient engine although it's greatly improved over the years. The GTR and the 911 turbo are bad expamples for fuel ecomony becuase those setups are meant to produce as much low end torque as possible; meaing spool as quickly as possible therefore creating conditions in which it is extremely difficult to stay out of boost. There goes your fuel economy. Plus, then engines aren't as efficient because they don't have to be when your turbocharger is generating all the power. The GT3 is only one worth buying in terms of performance in my eyes.

Hybrid technology to me is just a band aid anymore. It's a marketing and PR gimmick. Until batteries last longer, aren't poisonous to the environment, charge in less time, and weigh less they are just dead weight to me. The only hybrid worth a damn was the original Insight. Got close to 70MPG. For some reason Honda did what they do best to every newer generation of car. They make it worse. Now the insight is just a joke if you are speaking in terms of MPG and general looks. Electric motors have the best torque curves imaginable but the problem with them is they require electricity. Fuel cells are the only thing right now capable of generating real-world electricity for such electric motors to drive long distances. There is no way that is going to be released to the general public any time soon. Diesel technology has come a long way as well and it good for MPG but it has its downfalls as well.

Honda's hay day I think has come and gone. They seem to care about going green but they really haven't. If you look at the average MPG of their cars in the mid nineties VS now, the older cars win. I'm talking real world driving and not EPA estimates. It's amazing how the EPA changed the estimates since E10 on the older cars to reflect it being worse than they actually are, and on the newer cars it's just a joke because they over estimate on most of them.

I think the new NSX is going to be under par. I hope I'm wrong. I've been following it since it was a drawing in Road and Track magaizine and later named the HSC. A little change for the better of the X back then and maybe some room for a bigger engine (which would have been nice to see a high revving V8 engine which Honda most definitely knows how to build). Then the subsequent concepts were junk and more junk. As far as visuals goes on the newest design, it is going in the right direction. I think it still looks bad but that's just my opinion, but it is much improved. The NSX was a brilliant design to begin with. They could easily build off of that and make it look ahead of its time just like the old one.

The new NSX should be something like it was before. Performance oriented based off a good chassis design, good suspension design, and a good engine for the basics. Although the engine was lackluster in performance the car as a package worked. There is a reason why it could compete well in JGTC naturally aspirated with the likes of the other turbo kings back in the day. As good as their F1 engine program was for some reason Honda never tried going with a serious engine in this car. That would have boosted sales. The car could have costed 10 grand more with the better engine, but because it would have had double the power it would be been more justification to spend the money. Only the guys designing the new X know what it's outcome will be, but every time I get my hopes up for the new gen of NSX I am let down. Again, I hope I am wrong.
 
Last edited:
Japan hasnt been building turbos instead of V8s for years because they did not improve gas mileage vs bigger engines/more cylinders, have equivalent power when wanted, keep overall weight of vehicle down (meaning less JCI fees every year, less toll road fees, etc), proven reliability.
 
GM did a lot of trick with the new one.

What Bats is saying below

Exactly. The TT 911 and the GTR aren't all that great for MPG.

What GM did right with the LSx was to hone the combustion chamber, up the compression ratio and properly mate it to a proper 6 speed manual tranny that at 65MPH you are between idle and 2k RPMs.

When you have so much low end TQ you can take advantage of that by having the car cruise at freeway speeds in the last gear and sip gas.

- - - Updated - - -

I beg to differ. I build high hp turbocharger vehicles everyday that exceed MPG of most hybrids nowadays. High compression, a good combustion chamber design (basically an engine with an incredible VE) and a little boost goes a long way; especially allowing a nice lean burn without detrimental effect to the engine. What should be considered when building a high HP small displacement engine is getting the engine to be as efficient as possible before the boost is introduced. It sounds crazy to some but it works..extremely well. The average 500 WHP 1.6 liter setup I build gets 38-44MPG depending on off boost conditions vs boost conditions and/or gear ratios. The average 600WHP 1.9-2.0 liter setup gets 34-38MPG. All of these setups will have no less than 6k rpm of usable power band which is more than most offerings today. My CRX made 638WHP on 93 octane and it has a 10.5:1 compression ratio. Because of the aggressive nature of the cams it only get 28mpg, but it also makes over 1000BHP with the right type of fuel and more boost so it is a compromise I can live with. The last 5 speed turbo NSX I tuned is averaging 30-32MPG with a best highway MPG of 35. Granted, the type of work I do to achieve these figures is not what the OEM wants to do, but if they really wanted to make something that performed and got great mileage they would do more than just give it more selectable gears and/or longer gear ratios.

A V8 and up is the worst for fuel economy based off its sheer displacement, and rotational/frictional losses on its own and I won't even get into how terrible the cylinder heads are on the domestic side of things. Even if they turn off cylinders its still just dead weight being thrown around that the other cylinders have to work to turn. The only thing a corvette has going for it is ridiculously long gear ratios just to keep it at near ilde when cruising on the highway. It still has a terrible VE; a very inefficient engine although it's greatly improved over the years.......

I should have clarified that what I state is what OEM are delivering to the consumers. Because that is what I'm talking about with my GTO, for example. A fully loaded 3800lbs~ with the additional weight and load of a Maggie blower running 91 octane California Costco gasoline.

Let's line item your projects:

500whp 1.6 liters getting 38-44MPG
600WHP 1.9-2.0 34-38MPG
CRX 638WHP on 93 octane with 10.5:1

I like to know the following:

Will these cars pass the California sniffer?
Are the cars with good MPGs gutted interiors (in other words have the cars been through a weight reduction diet)?
Do the cars have modern day safety standards (airbags, etc.)?
Any of these cars running pump gas with no meth or water injection?

Explain to me just how bad are the Corvette heads. They flow well, make good power and torque. The cats are not much bigger than the length of my hand (leading me to think that they don't pollute that much since they look like pre-cats).

Sure they have enough power to support their near idle freeway cruise. That is really part of my point of having displacement and using those attributes.

- - - Updated - - -

Japan hasnt been building turbos instead of V8s for years because they did not improve gas mileage vs bigger engines/more cylinders, have equivalent power when wanted, keep overall weight of vehicle down (meaning less JCI fees every year, less toll road fees, etc), proven reliability.

When I looked into converting a FD from a rotary engine to a LSx I discovered that since the LSx was an aluminum block it was pretty close in weight to the Japanese small engine + turbos + whatever needs to support the turbos (Intercooler, additional wires, hoses, ducts, etc.).

I have a loaner 2013 Acura TL and I get almost the exact same average MPGs as my GTO. Both roughly around 20MPGs~.

I drive both cars hard. Both are probably about the same in weight. And I think both have 6 speed tranny (TL being the auto).

The problem with modern car weight (which is getting heavier due to increased size and all the safety, infotainment stuff) is that you need TQ to move it.

So while the import cars are getting heavier whatever advantages in a smaller engine is starting to get negated since I have to mash on the gas pedal longer to get it to the speeds that I want to hit before I cruise.

With the GTO: WOOOOOT! and in a short amount of time I'm at the speeds that I need to be and go into cruise mode.
 
I'm chiming in on the mileage numbers.

As an anal owner who has kept mileage records for 22 years my average NSX mileage since new is 21.7 mpg.
The best tankful was 28.9 mpg and the average of the best four tankful's was 28.7 mpg.

Perhaps 30 - 32 mpg in an NSX might be possible under certain conditions but I'd not think it's doable on a long term basis.
 
Last edited:
Real world in my 2013 Carrera S PDK has been 28+ highway 22-23 mixed.

Many owners claim up to 33 hwy.

3.8 litre 400HP
 
Last edited:
What GM did right with the LSx was to hone the combustion chamber, up the compression ratio and properly mate it to a proper 6 speed manual tranny that at 65MPH you are between idle and 2k RPMs.

When you have so much low end TQ you can take advantage of that by having the car cruise at freeway speeds in the last gear and sip gas.
It still doesn't make up for the sheer amount of displacement that needs to burn gas even if it is sipping it. Giving a longer gear ratio is just a band aid to the real problem at hand which is a big displacement inefficient engine. If you are only looking at highway cruising alone then a smaller engine with the same amount of rpm at the same mph would use less gas. It is less volume of a cylinder that needs filled with air and fuel. Yes, a lighter car with a small engine can accelerate at less than 2k rpm.
- - - Updated - - -



I should have clarified that what I state is what OEM are delivering to the consumers. Because that is what I'm talking about with my GTO, for example. A fully loaded 3800lbs~ with the additional weight and load of a Maggie blower running 91 octane California Costco gasoline.

That is what I was talking about when I said OEMs won't do it because they simply aren't. If they did we wouldn't be having this discussion. They are simply ignoring the very basics when it comes to conserving fuel vs performance.

Let's line item your projects:

500whp 1.6 liters getting 38-44MPG
600WHP 1.9-2.0 34-38MPG
CRX 638WHP on 93 octane with 10.5:1

I like to know the following:

Will these cars pass the California sniffer?
Are the cars with good MPGs gutted interiors (in other words have the cars been through a weight reduction diet)?
Do the cars have modern day safety standards (airbags, etc.)?
Any of these cars running pump gas with no meth or water injection?



All are not gutted they are all street cars with full 8.50 cert cages. No car that is modified with aftermarket turbos will technically pass California emissions based on that alone, but if we are talking just about tailpipe emissions then yes. We run extremely large catalytic converters to pass emissions here. They are a perfectly stable 16-16.5 :1 AFR at idle and under partial throttle, and the displacement is so small they really sip the fuel under low load and off boost conditions. That is the beauty of running a standalone EMS. You aren't stuck at normal stoich AFRs and can run a lean but stable AFR without losing acceleration torque. Yes, they have airbags as most of these run in the 1992-2000 range so some will have one while others will have two. I don't use meth injection on any of these setups. I prefer to make the best of the 93 pump fuel and in order to do that requires a proper setup to do so. I also get decent mileage on the E85 setups I do.

Explain to me just how bad are the Corvette heads. They flow well, make good power and torque. The cats are not much bigger than the length of my hand (leading me to think that they don't pollute that much since they look like pre-cats).

Sure they have enough power to support their near idle freeway cruise. That is really part of my point of having displacement and using those attributes.

- - - Updated - - -
The only reason they make any power it is because of the displacement. The cylinder head/intake manifold is the weak link. It doesn't matter what GM did to any of its LS motors they still have a VE of way less than 100 percent and nowhere near 100hp/liter even in supercharged fashion from the factory which isn't very good. Typical LS1 and LS6 ported flow numbers (not stock) are almost all under 320CFM at .0500 lift as well. The 4 cyl Honda and NSX 6 cyl numbers stock flow extremely well and after proper modification reach between 340CFM at .0500 (B series) 370CFM (K series) and close to 380CFM (H series) C series (coming soon). Combine that with outstanding port velocity equals VEs that range from 112 percent all the way to 123 percent naturally aspirated. Even the H22A was 110 percent from factory and the F20C1 from the S2K I believe was around 113 percent. GM will never hit those numbers from the factory until they make a better head. Just because the cats are small in size it doesn't mean they don't have a high cell count, and they are damn expensive too. Big displacement engines simply use more fuel. There is no getting around that. Comparing that to engines with better BSFC is just weird. Making the best use of a low end torque curve for better mileage isn't frowned upon by me, but the logic that a V8 is better for ecomony in that regard alone doesn't make it the better alternative. I don't hate V8s, V10s, or V12s. I love the sound of an F1 engine in person nor would turn a cheek to a Ferrari V8 or V12 :) I just think there is a better way to MPG and it certainly isn't a bigger engine.



The problem with modern car weight (which is getting heavier due to increased size and all the safety, infotainment stuff) is that you need TQ to move it.

So while the import cars are getting heavier whatever advantages in a smaller engine is starting to get negated since I have to mash on the gas pedal longer to get it to the speeds that I want to hit before I cruise.


That is correct! I don't understand the logic behind auto makers anymore. A heavier car requires a bigger engine to get it moving and pretty much throwing all the efficiency out the window. But the smaller engines ARE getting bigger. The civic now comes with a 1.8L and 2.4L when it used to be a 1.5 and 1.6. Hell all the 6 cylinders nowadays are approaching 4.0L. It's hard to find anything anymore with less than that of a 3,000LB curb weight.
 
I'm chiming in on the mileage numbers.

As an anal owner who has kept mileage records for 22 years my average NSX mileage since new is 21.7 mpg.
The best tankful was 28.9 mpg and the average of the best four tankful's was 28.7 mpg.

Perhaps 30 - 32 mpg in an NSX might be possible under certain conditions but I'd not think it's doable on a long term basis.

Just curious how many miles are on your NSX now and how often you drive it? It sounds about right though. If I let my NSX sit a week or two and drive it, I get lower 20s and if I drive it 3-4 times a week when weather permits, I am closer to 30 mpg, usually 28-29 mpg. Also I almost never take the NSX on roadtrips except when I bought it so I may break the 30 mpg range if it was all highway.
 
Just curious how many miles are on your NSX now and how often you drive it? It sounds about right though. If I let my NSX sit a week or two and drive it, I get lower 20s and if I drive it 3-4 times a week when weather permits, I am closer to 30 mpg, usually 28-29 mpg. Also I almost never take the NSX on roadtrips except when I bought it so I may break the 30 mpg range if it was all highway.

I have 90 k miles on my NSX and drive it summer only
My highest mpg 28.9 mpg was on a road trip on fairly level ground and the four tankful average of 28.7 was on the same road trip over more distance.
Driving though mountains lowers my mileage.
My data is based on keeping track of mileage on over 400 tankful's so I know my data is good for my car.
However other NSX's may run better or have better drivers and do better.
 
I have 90 k miles on my NSX and drive it summer only
My highest mpg 28.9 mpg was on a road trip on fairly level ground and the four tankful average of 28.7 was on the same road trip over more distance.
Driving though mountains lowers my mileage.
My data is based on keeping track of mileage on over 400 tankful's so I know my data is good for my car.
However other NSX's may run better or have better drivers and do better.

Although I don't have as many miles under my belt with my own NSX (3.0L), I can vouch the very first road trip I took from Kentucky to Indiana to Pennsylvania in March was averaging 30-31MPG all highway @75-80MPH with various gas stations. Around town with hills and slight highway use I get 26-29MPG now. Altitude does play a role with location as well. I have no really cold weather data yet but every car does worse in winter. It won't see snow, but it will get driven until the fall. I will then be able to get somewhat of a year round average.
 
Real world in my 2013 Carrera S PDK has been 28+ highway 22-23 mixed.

Many owners claim up to 33 hwy.

3.8 litre 400HP

That's not bad at all. Has to be the tranny.

Although I don't have as many miles under my belt with my own NSX (3.0L), I can vouch the very first road trip I took from Kentucky to Indiana to Pennsylvania in March was averaging 30-31MPG all highway @75-80MPH with various gas stations. Around town with hills and slight highway use I get 26-29MPG now. Altitude does play a role with location as well. I have no really cold weather data yet but every car does worse in winter. It won't see snow, but it will get driven until the fall. I will then be able to get somewhat of a year round average.

Old NSX being lighter with smaller engine should be getting better then shouldn't it? What do you think is the reason that it doesn't get mid 30's ...injectors or gearing etc
 
My case for the LSx and now Coyote 5.0 (which I heard has 100% VE) making good MPGs is that the amount of low end TQ that they make allows companies to mate them to a 6 speed with proper gear ratios allowing the cars to run low RPMs at freeway speeds.

I wish the NSX final gear was something to that effect. All of the 4 and 6 banger engines just seem to be high RPM engines in the final gear.
 
People keep talking/speculating on NSX HP and it's targets but all those targets have really REALLY crappy fuel economy. New 911 isn't too bad but GM just topped them with the Vette getting a 29mpg highway with word being it actually can top 30. I bring this up because if this car is going to get past Ito it's going to have to have superior fuel economy.

Boosted six isn't known for MPG. If the hybrid motors are all tuned for maximum performance then economy suffers (we saw this with the first Accord hybrid that was geared for performance). Guess we'll know more when the RLX hybrid comes out. Base fwd RLX is nothing to write home about though.

If the NSX does get the rumored 9spd dct then it will be close. Pretty sure the won't let GM beat them out on MPG.

Perry there is a lot you can do with boost logic and variable flow turbos. My RDX, for example uses a very clever system to vary the flow of the turbo and while there is still some lag, you get low end torque early. Problem is Honda did not program the boost logic right in that car and at 75 mph, you are in boost so mpg suffers (best I have ever gotten is 26 mpg). It is easy enough to shut off the turbo in 5th/6th gear and/or divert flow to make the engine run NA for the highway. Mfrs have perfected this concept with the variable displacement systems. They just need to apply it to turbos. Throttle position, gear selected and speed can all control turbo activation, for example. Plus, you could have a "Sport" button that leaves the turbos on full time.
 
My case for the LSx and now Coyote 5.0 (which I heard has 100% VE) making good MPGs is that the amount of low end TQ that they make allows companies to mate them to a 6 speed with proper gear ratios allowing the cars to run low RPMs at freeway speeds.

I wish the NSX final gear was something to that effect. All of the 4 and 6 banger engines just seem to be high RPM engines in the final gear.


If you heard 100% VE on that engine then the figures are off. Although Ford finally woke up to the modern age some time ago and started using overhead cams, the engines still have a way to go with NA power production. That's why their displacement isn't enough anymore to reach their power goals and both the top models (Cobra/ZR-1) have been supercharged. I think the only reason they did the super tall gears in those cars is to keep people from complaining about the terrible mileage that would come with better suited reduction gears. My NSX 5 speed has a decent rpm in fifth gear at highway speed to maximize the torque of the engine and to also keep the rpms low. The 6 speeds are pretty decent at it too but it all comes down to how fast you want to go at highway speeds. It's all relative. If they were to put in a taller gear/taller final drive then it wouldn't do well on the road race circuits/drag circuits. It's always a compromise. There is a reason almost every Mustang owner and Corvette owner at the shop next door to me changes out the rear ends for shorter gearing. It provides better acceleration, regardless of how much low end torque there is. I raced my friend last night with my 3.0 NSX in his C5 Z06 in top gear at 40MPH and won until 70MPH and stopped. With all the torque that engine is supposed to have that tall gear did nothing but hinder performance. My starting RPM was around 2K and he told me his was around 1.2K. Performance VS MPG is always a compromise but there are ways to make it better other than tall gearing and a big engine.
 
Old NSX being lighter with smaller engine should be getting better then shouldn't it? What do you think is the reason that it doesn't get mid 30's ...injectors or gearing etc

Our 3.0 are running a fairly high rpm at highway speeds to keep our engine making enough torque to cruise without downshifting on every mild incline.
I suspect most drivers are 70-80 mph on the highway.
At 60 mph I think rpm is at 2600 and it might be possible to get mid thirties mpg at that rpm.
I don't think we can get 35 mpg running at 3000-3400 rpm (70- 80 mph)
 
Back
Top