URGENT!!! PLEASE HELP!!! Brake failure on track!

[TigerNSX]

Hi, everyone,
My husband, Tiger went to the track today and his brakes went soft (please excuse if some things don't make sense - I have no idea what some of these terms mean, and I'm just relaying the info from Tiger). He has stock brakes and uses stock brake fluid. He and his instructor "bled" the fluid and was given some assurance that this would be enough to go out and track tomorrow.
Anyone ever had this issue before? What should he do, and would you go out to track again, without getting a thorough mechanical evaluation?

Thanks for all the help in advance!

 

[docjohn]

Tell him not to worry,He likely overheated the brake system and among other things would get brake fade and a spongy pedal.He should make sure that there is no leak of fluid and all fittings are secure,then an overnight rest should put him back to normal assuming he has good pad material left.If he was able to replace the fluid that will help but will not prevent it from happening again if he is at the same track tommorow.Tell him if it occures again to pump the pedal to prime the system before the bigger brake zones otherwise he may need to take it easier and reduce speed,he can still have fun.

 

[RP-Motorsports]

First thing is I would re-bleed the entire system with an aftermarket ABS performance fluid like Motul etc. Antone who tracks anything with OEM fluid is just asking for it.

 

[Hrant]

Ditto. And, don't forget to tell Tiger to buy the hard working and dedicated instructor a cold drink after the event .......

Let's not forget about the priotities ....

 

[jadkar]

You know, I was gonna suggest flushing the whole system and replacing with Super Blue fluid, but I figured I would leave the comments to the track rats with more experience then myself. Thinking about it some more I definitely wouldn't use the OEM fluid on the track just because it’s easy enough to replace it, and would only be beneficial. After all the brakes are the most important system in the car.

For now, already being at the track, I would listen to DocJohn his advice is always good.

 

[Taj]

Brake is always number one on my check list when it comes to track event. In your case I would flush and bleed the entire brake system with high temp brake fluid such as ATE or Motul. Usually stock/OEM brake fluid has a lower boiling temp and it forms bubble in the brake system from constant hard braking at the track. Also check for leak and brake pads.

Finally, replacing the OEM brake lines with stainless steel braided lines prevent swelling and improve pedal feel.

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. I will pass on this info to Tiger.

 

[nsxtasy]

I agree that it is probably the fluid. It would be nice if it could be flushed (replaced) with a high-temperature fluid, but if that's not possible, just beware that it might happen again. If it does, end the session and drive around the paddock for a few minutes so that the brakes can cool down a bit.

However, he should also check the pad thickness. I encountered a partial loss of braking going into a braking zone this past weekend. I wasn't sure if it was the pads or the fluid, but I knew that my pads were wearing down. The outer pads were 2-3 mm thick (I was hoping to get one more 20-minute session out of them) but one of the inner pads had disintegrated (probably due to the excessive heat when a red flag was thrown a few laps earlier) and looked like this :

 

[NSXLuvr]

Ouch

 

[TigerNSX]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies and help. I have just gotten back from the track, and oh, boy.. what an experience I had.

I will not go into the details, but this had to be the most scary track event that I had so far. They all resulted due to my stupidity.

So far, I have had about 10 days at the track. In the previous events, I was still going moderately slow that the brake system or the car itselt never ran too hot. So it never occurred to me that those things would matter.

In this event, I noticed that I was accelearting and braking harder. Going into the straight with the full acceleration, and finding out that my brake was not working at the end of the straight was inexplicable.

I was deeply disappointed and sad about what came right after (I was stupid, that's all I can say). No one was hurt, and my car was miraculously saved (luckily, all the cars were far behind me). However, it really was an eye opening incident. I learned a valuable lesson from this event.

I made sincere apologies to everyone at the track including my instructor, chief organizer, and drivers that were in my rungroup.
I just packed everything, and came home. It was a 7-hour drive, and I had a long time to calm down, and think about what really happened. However, I still cannot get rid of that feeling. I feel really stupid, and I have never been so disappointed in myself for putting everyone in danger like that.

 

[jadkar]

Tiger,

I have no idea what happened and I didn't read anyone other threads yet (not sure if you started another one). However, with me being a novice, just like you, and also a friend I think you are being a little hard on yourself. You’re a true "stand up" guy and I'm saddened on how much you beat yourself up. You’re going to be just fine, and a few set backs whether it be on the track or else where are no big deal. The important thing, like you said is no one was hurt. Chin up!! Everything will be fine, the Tiger will be triumphant!!. Give me a call some time if you want to talk. I'll PM you my number s again.

-John

 

[TigerNSX]

John,

Thank you so much for the kinds words and encouragement. I will regain from this incident, and look forward to making improvements over the next events.

I look forward to seeing you soon.

 

[ak]

I agree that it is probably the fluid. It would be nice if it could be flushed (replaced) with a high-temperature fluid, but if that's not possible, just beware that it might happen again. If it does, end the session and drive around the paddock for a few minutes so that the brakes can cool down a bit.

However, he should also check the pad thickness. I encountered a partial loss of braking going into a braking zone this past weekend. I wasn't sure if it was the pads or the fluid, but I knew that my pads were wearing down. The outer pads were 2-3 mm thick (I was hoping to get one more 20-minute session out of them) but one of the inner pads had disintegrated (probably due to the excessive heat when a red flag was thrown a few laps earlier) and looked like this :

Ken was this on your ITR? Was this the stock pads or the Cobalt GT pads?


Tiger, don't beat yourself up so much. We all make mistakes.. I sure have many times. You learn from them, move on and make sure you don't make the same mistake again.

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken was this on your ITR? Was this the stock pads or the Cobalt GT pads?

Cobalt GT Sport pads on the ITR. I don't blame the pads though. I think it was the excessive heat while stopped for the red flag without ANY opportunity for a gradual cool-down. (Although, in hindsight, if I continue to use street-track pads like the GT Sport, I think I will probably replace them at 3-4 mm for track use from now on, rather than driving them down to 2 mm like in the past.)

Tiger, don't beat yourself up so much. We all make mistakes.. I sure have many times. You learn from them, move on and make sure you don't make the same mistake again.

I agree. As long as you think that track driving can still be fun for you - and for most folks, it can - I suggest you simply learn from the experience, and get back up on the horse and ride it. We all make mistakes, and we all started out inexperienced. We learn. And we still remember what it was like to start out.

Hope to see you - on the track - at NSXPO 2004!

 

[ak]

Cobalt GT Sport pads on the ITR. I don't blame the pads though. I think it was the excessive heat while stopped for the red flag without ANY opportunity for a gradual cool-down. (Although, in hindsight, if I continue to use street-track pads like the GT Sport, I think I will probably replace them at 3-4 mm for track use from now on, rather than driving them down to 2 mm like in the past.)

I saw a thread on Honda-tech where the same thing happened on a GS-R with cobalt pads with more pads left. I guess integra in general, even with ITR, is hard on the brake. I agree that it's probably not the pads but more the cooling issue.

 

[Ponyboy]

I agree. As long as you think that track driving can still be fun for you - and for most folks, it can - I suggest you simply learn from the experience, and get back up on the horse and ride it. We all make mistakes, and we all started out inexperienced. We learn. And we still remember what it was like to start out.

Truer words are rarely spoken. Good advice.

 

[nsxtasy]

I saw a thread on Honda-tech where the same thing happened on a GS-R with cobalt pads with more pads left. I guess integra in general, even with ITR, is hard on the brake.

No, the ITR is actually very well equipped in the braking department. (The front pad is the exact same size with the NSX - makes it convenient when buying pads for either car - but it's only a single piston caliper.) The GS-R is not as well equipped as the ITR. Also, the track that was mentioned in that topic is exceptionally brutal on brakes.

 

[RSO 34]

Hi Tiger,

It is obvious that you are taking HPDE seriously and it is good to see that you have concern not only for yourself but for the others on the track with you. However, don't beat yourself up over this, just learn from it. Some day I will compile a "best of" video highlighting all of the spins, accidents, stupid mistakes, etc. of cars driving in front of me on the track.

In the meantime, I would have no qualms driving on the track with you at any time. Hang in there and chalk it up to experience and a lesson learned.

 

[docjohn]

I agree with the others,you need to expect bumps along the way up the learning curve.Additionaly there will continue to be "moments" on track,we have them everyday regardless of driver level.So if you would like to privately discuss this episode with any of us do so!

 

[RSO 34]

If it makes you feel any better........

Here are two Advanced drivers at the Ferrari Club outing at Lime Rock yesterday. Please note that this is not the preferred method of coming out of the downhill.

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks so much for the encouragement.

I will be back at the WGI again in August, and I will have DOT 4 brake fluid as well as other things checked out.

I will also be equipped with stronger mentality.

 

[DCNSX]

I was recommended to go to
http://www.cobaltfriction.com/prod_.../prodcat-brakepads-axxisultimate-shopping.htm

for upgraded pads. Mine were OEM and they don't cut it at all on the track- lots of shudder and fade. I got the Axxis Ultimate (not a full race pad) which did great ($85/front pair). Follow their bedding-in instructions closely- it's important. I think NSXer Andy Lin (??) works there. They can help you find the right pad, depending on how much you track your car.

 

[nsxtasy]

Mine were OEM and they don't cut it at all on the track- lots of shudder and fade.

OEM pads don't shudder or fade any more than any other pad.

Shudder is caused by lack of proper bedding technique, as described in the white paper on the Stoptech website.

The OEM pads only fade when they are being heated up HARD on the track for the first or second session and they are outgassing for the first time - like every other brake pad I've ever driven.

I agree that Andie and his people at Cobalt can help you find the right pad for your needs.

 

[DCNSX]

Ken- What are the advantages/disadvantages (for track-day use) of say the Axxis vs. the OEM pads? I thought an "upgraded" pad would fade less.

 

[NSXDreamer2]

Hopefully it's not too late for you

I used the axxis ultimate for street driving, I don't like it just because of the excess dusting... other than that, I had no complaint of it.

I also used them for the first 2 track session with my nsx, the last one (3rd time) I switched to the panther plus pads I got from SOS... Big improvment... I'm very satisfied for the performance... one of my buddy didn't even bother to switch 'em back when he used his on the street... seems like he had no problem so far.
by comparison, the axxis pad is a bit soft and to me it's a little hard to determine the point of when to realease the brake pedal.

If you are going to get a set of race pad, go for the pather plus or the colbalt, nsxtasy sweared by it, my cousin also using it with no complaints...

as far as skill level goes, me and polar should be about your level... I had an offroad "dance on gravel" on my first DE, yes I know exactly what will go thru you... Sign up more track day if you can, as you will about to find out the next track day; if you will be going on the same track, you will have a big shadow and you probably will end up being very slow and defensive on some particular corners... it wasn't a fun track day for me... But then by going slower and more observation of other people's driving and line they taking, you will gradually pick up the pace again...

Then came the third time on the track, I felt very good about it and developed some new skills (to me it's new)..... Your mileage will vary, but remember, if you are going to go fast, something is going to happen, now it's your call to manage it into a small incident or big loss. Just think of all those pro racer, they still going off course or loss some body work, even on just qualifying. This is part of the learning curve.