tracking brake pad, upgrade front end only or both?

[polar]

Hi all
I'm currently looking for brake pads for track event. I'm gonna run the stoptech aerorotor at front and OEM rotor at rear, I'm thinking to use the Carbotech Panther Plus pad for the front brakes during track event.
My questions is, will this setup affect my brake bias if I only use carbotech pad at the front during track event? or should I upgrade both front and rear?

 

[ncdogdoc]

I use the Panther Plus pads, and this is my opinion only, but hopefully will be backed up by others on this board.

The NSX being mid engine, needs a little more brake bias in the rear than the "typical" rear wheel drive car. The Panther Plus line has an amazing amount of bite, and I think it would be much to front biased to just install the front pads. I know of some who actually use a lower friction pad in the front than the rear on stock setups to increase the rear bias. I have wanted to do this for a long time, but it has never been that high on my list.

I would use the same pads all four wheels, whichever pad you use. I personally prefer the Carbotech pads, so much so that I now sell them after using them for two years at multiple track events. Let me know if I may be of any more help.

 

[nsxtasy]

And here's my opinion on this, based on my experience. My experience is that I have used quite a few different types of brake pads (at least half a dozen) on my NSX. I'm trying out different pads all the time. These are all street-track pads, pads designed to perform well on the racetrack while still having little to no squealing and reasonable dusting; they range from the Porterfield R4S (not quite up to a high performance application IMO) to the stock pad (actually very very good for performance as well as street-friendliness) to the Carbotech Panther Plus (the most track-like pad I have used). I have not used any poor-quality pads (like the kind you might get at the neighborhood auto parts store, or Metal Masters) and I have not used any track-only pads (e.g. Porterfield R4).

Within the range of pads I have used, I see no reason to match pad compounds front and rear. I have never encountered any drastic front-vs-rear / proportioning problems with any combination of these pads. The car stops in a well-balanced manner. So when I get new pads, I get whatever type of brake pad I want to be using next, either my current preferred pad or whatever type I want to try next. And I keep using the pads at each end of the car, even if they don't match the pads at the other end, until the pad material is worn down to the point where they need replacement.

As for the Carbotech Panther Plus pads, I have them on my car right now, and I am somewhat disappointed in them. I don't swap to track pads for the track events, so I like something street-friendly. For my taste, the Panther Plus pads just squeal too much for street use. As a track-only pad for those who swap pads before and after track events, they might be fine (although I am not an expert on track-only pads).

I still have a set of brand new NSX front Carbotech Panther Plus pads, and a set of brand new NSX rear Carbotech Panther Plus pads, that I would be happy to sell for a great price if you're interested. I am not a dealer or distributor; I would just like to get most of my money back on the set that I already bought...

 

[1BADNSX]

As for the Carbotech Panther Plus pads, I have them on my car right now, and I am somewhat disappointed in them.

Ken, what pad will you buy next?

 

[docjohn]

Kotex!

 

[RSO 34]

Kotex!

 

[Yellow Rose]

Bob, was that a "lead-in" for John?

What is not clear to me from polar's (by the way, that is a very nice beer from Venezuela) is if he has factory calipers or large calipers. All in all, I agree withy Gary's and Ken's comments, but here are a few more to think about. Remember, your specific set-up and results will vary.

When I was running factory brakes, I used Porterfield R-4S on the street and their R-4 on the track, front and back for both environments. Although there are other good pads out there, I found these to be a great pad.

However, with the Brembos (all four corners) I struggled to find a good comfort zone. The brakes came as standard, with Galfer pads. In my opinion these pads belong only on a street-driven vehicle. I found them to be "too sticky" such that with aggressive braking, the pad would deposit residual material onto the rotor which resulted in vibration during heavy braking at the track. Rather distracting when slowing down from 199 MPH at Road America, going into turn five.

After the first track event with the Brembos (which was at Road America) with the above configuration, I looked into what options are available to NSXers, with regards to brake bias employed with big brakes. It came down to two choices - installing proportioning valves or altering pad compounds.

I have a pair of proportioning valves, complete with pre-bent tubing, in my toolbox. The two reasons I did not install them are (a) potential source of brake fluid leakage (b) they would have been a booger to install.

I called Comptech, asking what they do to achieve brake bias. Answer - alter pad compounds. Just to get another data point, I called Carbotech and asked them the same question. Same answer.

What does Andy run?

For the street - Porterfield R-4S front and back.

For the track - same rears, but Carbotech Panther Plus up front.

There are two "issues" I have with the CPP for street use.....they dust very heavily and at moderate operating temperatures they squeal like a pig. Regardless, their stopping power is awesome.

There, how is that for a simple answer?

 

[nsxtasy]

Ken, what pad will you buy next?

I plan on discussing my needs with Andie at Cobalt, and getting whatever he recommends.

With this response, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, just truthful. I am not totally satisfied with any of the pads I have used in the past, and so will be finding out what else might be available.

 

[Yellow Rose]

I plan on discussing my needs with Andie at Cobalt, and getting whatever he recommends.

Exactly, it was Andie (when he was still with Carbotech) that advised me of my aforementioned pad configuration.

After I wear through my CPPs, I'll give him a call for Cobalt recommendations.

I still have meat left on my present pads because I am such a good track driver that I do not brake going into the turns.

Sure Andy, and what brand of elixir are you imbibing?

 

[NSX 3.0]

Andy 199 mph at RA are you sure..I think the Cart Cars might hit that not in the NSX. I by all means am not a hard core Trackie but the fastest I've hit there is 133 mph going into 12 Canada Corner which is where you should be getting the fastest speeds on that Track.

 

[Elite]

Fairly new to the track scene... but have any of you used any of the Hawk pads at the track? Like the Blue, Black or HP+? What are your impresions? I have used the Hawk Blue's on a modded 300zx tt at Brainerd... they were amazing! The only issue is that they eat up rotors like I have never seen before. And the brake dust is still burnt into the Volk TE 37's. But the stopping power was insane. Any thoughts? I am going to be doing the Stop Tech Big Brake kit before spring hits... what pads do you all rocommend?

 

[Yellow Rose]

Andy 199 mph at RA are you sure..I think the Cart Cars might hit that not in the NSX. I by all means am not a hard core Trackie but the fastest I've hit there is 133 mph going into 12 Canada Corner which is where you should be getting the fastest speeds on that Track.

Hi Steve - I was just funning.

If I recall correctly, the fastest straight is the front going into #1, the right-hander.

Followed by the next one that has the "truck on the overpass" (those that have been to RA will know what I am talking about…..Italian pasta sauce).

Respectfully, isn't Canada Corner at the end of the “third straight”, the one that has the infamous "KINK", following the carousel, that I think the BMW club uses a radar gun to enforce exit speeds (which by the way, Peter blasted through and the corner worker just shrugged his shoulders for the NSXPO 2001 event)?

 

[NSX 3.0]

Andy 199 mph at RA are you sure..I think the Cart Cars might hit that not in the NSX. I by all means am not a hard core Trackie but the fastest I've hit there is 133 mph going into 12 Canada Corner which is where you should be getting the fastest speeds on that Track.

Hi Steve - I was just funning.

If I recall correctly, the fastest straight is the front going into #1, the right-hander.

Followed by the next one that has the "truck on the overpass" (those that have been to RA will know what I am talking about…..Italian pasta sauce).

Respectfully, isn't Canada Corner at the end of the “third straight”, the one that has the infamous "KINK", following the carousel, that I think the BMW club uses a radar gun to enforce exit speeds (which by the way, Peter blasted through and the corner worker just shrugged his shoulders for the NSXPO 2001 event)?

I know you were just giving you a little heat Really the fastest section of the Track is the backside some previous Cart drivers like Montoya and Damata and I'm sure some others are on the gas from exit of turn 8 to 12 and are flat out through the Kink that is just insane Most of the fastest speeds are going into 12 Canada Corner. I remember PD saying he is caring so much speed he has to start braking at the number 4 marker there.

Here is a good pic of the Track.

http://roadamerica.com/2004/maps/map_track_580w.htm

 

[docjohn]

From my experience you don't want hawk blue on a street car.Elite ,I would ask stoptech to provide you with their hot street pad as your first set,find out what pad it is and use it as your baseline.The fun with big break kits ,esp front and rear is the ease and speed by which you can change out pads.Also what I've learned from experience and talking to specialists like Andie at cobalt is that you match the pad to the rotor based on the average rotor temps for whatever application you need them for.Most of us go by heresay and word of mouth,and for most street apps thats ok.But for true track apps your rotor temps may be very different from someone elses so you need to measure those so you really can match the pad to your exact specs.

 

[nsxtasy]

Andy is correct. With street cars like ours, you will hit top speed at the end of the front straight, entering the braking zone for turn 1, where it's not terribly difficult to hit 140. The next highest speed is at the end of the back straight, entering the braking zone for turn 5. The third highest speed is entering the braking zone for Canada Corner.

That order may be different for professional racers, for which Steven may be correct also.

 

[Elite]

Thanks for the advice. I hope to run RA at least once this year. And brainerd many times. I suppose I will have plenty of time to try different pads. Hope to see you guys at RA sometime this year. BTW, are there any already scheduled NSX events/get togethers at RA I should pencil in? Thanks again.

 

[nsxtasy]

A bunch of us NSX folks usually attend the event held the first weekend in May by the Windy City Chapter of BMW CCA. The event application is already out, so if you're interested, you'll want to sign up...

 

[2slow2speed]

Fairly new to the track scene... but have any of you used any of the Hawk pads at the track? Like the Blue, Black or HP+? What are your impresions? I have used the Hawk Blue's on a modded 300zx tt at Brainerd... they were amazing! The only issue is that they eat up rotors like I have never seen before. And the brake dust is still burnt into the Volk TE 37's. But the stopping power was insane. Any thoughts? I am going to be doing the Stop Tech Big Brake kit before spring hits... what pads do you all rocommend?

The Axxis pads that come with the Stoptech BBK are no good for track use, I returned them to Stoptech to get some $$$'s back.

I'm running Carbotech P+'s and they work well, of course all of the issues that Ken (nsxtasy) mentioned are present, but my car is mostly track use only so I make do . They work well in both the dry track as well as in a wet track.

Ken

 

[1BADNSX]

I am not totally satisfied with any of the pads I have used in the past, and so will be finding out what else might be available.

Ken, I will rephrase. Of the pads you have tried, which did you like best? I very rarely find that the two-birds in the bush are better than the one in hand. I am happy with the old RM's but have never been convinced what brand they really are. Some speculate HP+'s, any ideas?

Bob

 

[nsxtasy]

Of the pads you have tried, which did you like best?

I guess the RM pads. I had liked them a lot, until a track event at Grattan last September in my ITR, which uses the same front pads as the NSX. The pads were pretty worn down (perhaps 3 mm of pad material), so I was keeping a close eye on them already, and planning to change them after another session or two. There was what seemed like noticeable fade at the end of the front straight two laps in a row, so I pulled into the pits and yanked the front wheels. The pad material had separated from the backing plates. So this was less than comforting.

I have also been using Carbotech Panther Plus and Endless CCX pads, but while both of these perform well, they both squeal on the street.

I am still trying to avoid swapping pads for every track event, and would hope to find a single pad that might stand up to track use without tons of squealing on the street.

HTH

I am happy with the old RM's but have never been convinced what brand they really are. Some speculate HP+'s, any ideas?

That's what NetViper reported here not too long ago. His report (of getting a box of HP+ from RM) sounded fairly definitive; that's all I know.

 

[DONYMO]

Advice from Andie Lin

I'll throw in some info from a conversation I had with Andie Lin about 3 months ago.

We were talking about which pads work best on the NSX.
I told him that I had been using Carbotech Panther Plus and that I was pretty happy with them, but wanted to see if he had come up with a better setup, now that he's out on his own.

Andie said that for best performance, you really have to have dedicated track pads (he was recommending a new Hawk formulation that would have come out late last year, but I don't remember the name) and swap them out with street pads for each event.

I never did get any pads from him since I still had 2 boxes of unused Carbotechs.

Currently, I am running Carbotech XP's and will be doing my first track event on them at VIR on Feb 27-29. We'll see how it goes with them. My current plans are to run the XP's on the track and Carbotech Bobcat's on the street.

One more note : I have the RM Racing/AP Racing big brake kit. It has larger front calipers/pads, but stock rears.

 

[wildbill846]

As for the Carbotech Panther Plus pads, I have them on my car right now, and I am somewhat disappointed in them. I don't swap to track pads for the track events, so I like something street-friendly. For my taste, the Panther Plus pads just squeal too much for street use. As a track-only pad for those who swap pads before and after track events, they might be fine (although I am not an expert on track-only pads).

I love my Carbotech Panther Plus pads. Yes, they dust a lot...but my TAITEC GT Lightweight exhaust solved my squealing problem. (maybe a touch of stereo every now and then too). If you can cure the symptoms, who cares about the disease? lol

Bill

 

[NSX 3.0]

Fairly new to the track scene... but have any of you used any of the Hawk pads at the track? Like the Blue, Black or HP+? What are your impresions? I have used the Hawk Blue's on a modded 300zx tt at Brainerd... they were amazing! The only issue is that they eat up rotors like I have never seen before. And the brake dust is still burnt into the Volk TE 37's. But the stopping power was insane. Any thoughts? I am going to be doing the Stop Tech Big Brake kit before spring hits... what pads do you all rocommend?

I'm curious to if anyone has used the Hawk Blue Race Pads on there NSX equiped with a BBK..I also have the Stoptech Kit and am leaning towards the Carbotech Panther +s. Here is the compounds for the Hawks.


http://www.raceshopper.com/hawk_brake_compounds.shtml

 

[ncdogdoc]

Carobtech recommends the Bobcats for street use and the Panthers, Panther +, and Panther XP for track usage.

The Bobcats cannot handle full bore track use, but could probably handle the occasional autocross.

The Panther line has a much higher coefficient of friction, and subsequently has more rotor abrasion when cold, and dusting. They are awesome pads, but are not really designed (nor marketed as such) for everyday street use. I, as many on this board, have used them this way because we really like the bite, even on the street, and we just "put up" with the dusting. I do not think they squeal very much. Most of the squealing is due to the formation of a lip on your rotor along the edge of the pad, which also means you will have to change rotors more often if you run them on the street.

IMO, there is no best of both worlds when it comes to brake pads. The stock pads are great on the street and last a long time. Better pads, like the Bobcats, Axxis, etc are good double duty for canyon runs and autocross. But for true high speed track use, I think a true track pad is warranted. It only takes 10-15 minutes per wheel to change pads, less with air tools, and this is the best compromise I can offer. JMHO.

 

[nsxtasy]

I do not think they squeal very much.

I do.

Most of the squealing is due to the formation of a lip on your rotor along the edge of the pad

Not in my experience. From all the different sets of pads I've tried, I have never had the formation of a lip on my rotors. What I have experienced is that some pads (e.g. Carbotech Panther Plus, Endless CC-X) squeal, from the moment you start using them - and that other pads don't. It's all about the pad compound.

IMO, there is no best of both worlds when it comes to brake pads. The stock pads are great on the street and last a long time. Better pads, like the Bobcats, Axxis, etc are good double duty for canyon runs and autocross. But for true high speed track use, I think a true track pad is warranted.

Certainly, different pads for different purposes will give you the most specific application. But the downside is the effort needed to change them. While it's not that time-consuming, it can be a PITA, particularly when you're prepping for a track event and you're already pressed for time. Do what makes the most sense for you.