Track Car Chassis/Platform Lust and Questions (Large pictures, no 56k)

[golgo13]

Hey fellow gearheads,


First some pictures of my current car for fun as I believe it makes for a good introduction, especially in a sub-forum for track junkies:

From my very last event (I've been moving, so I haven't had time to hit the track in 2015 yet):

I've had my Mitsubishi evolution for seven years and one month as of today. The last few months I've found myself starting to look at other cars to flog on the track, but more specifically the NSX. I have a thing for unicorns, special models or rare and hard to find vehicles that often outperform other vehicles 2-3x the cost.

I've always lusted after the NSX, but forgot about it over ten years ago because of where I was in my career and the cost of ownership.

Fast forward to six years of HPDE, DIY garage wrenching and depreciation has lead me to this crossroads. Honda is still in my blood. Before I purchased my Evo I used to daily a 2000 Integra Type-R #933 , but nothing can really compare to an NSX. I feel I've matured enough to move from turbo AWD cars and step into something N/A and RWD. Obligate pictures of my old Type-R:

Why did I start this long winded post, you ask?

I need a reality check from the fellow track junkies that know the platform better than any armchair racer (i.e. me, haha) can.

I've been looking at 91-94 cars (stiffer coupe chassis, I'm told) that are ~100k mi and have had the snap ring service (or out of range) completed and all of the necessary refresh service. When I'm ready to purchase, my budget will be between $35k-$45k depending. A full blown race car is out of the question because I don't have the room for a tow rig and a trailer, so I really need to arrive and drive.

Is there a year that works better as a starting point for a track NSX?
I'll be putting in a baffle for the pan, but what else is recommended? External oil cooler? Transmission cooler?
How are consumables with the NSX?
How is part support for all the stuff that can break from track abuse?
At what point would the NSX benefit from a big brake kit?
The platform is over twenty years old, what bushings need to be replaced? Is there anything else?
Brake ducting?




TLDR: What model is best for the track and what needs replacement?



Thank you for your insights, wisdom and time,

Noah

 

[jwmelvin]

Did you read the other threads on this:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-like-owning-a-high-mile-nsx-street-track-car
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...-updates-and-question-for-track-minded-people
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showt...50K-Track-Tool-to-beat-500K-Track-Tools/page7

brakes (more an issue for FI):
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/185029-Brake-assessment-for-upcoming-track-day-(FI-NSX)
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/177965-Need-some-education-on-brakes-please

oil cooler:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/180234-Oil-cooler-help

alignment:
http://www.nsxprime.com/forum/showthread.php/146248-Camber-Toe-etc-settings-for-track-use

 

[golgo13]

I missed a couple of those, thanks for that.

EDIT: I almost wish there was a sticky in here for those links.

 

[Jinks]

Welcome! And so pleased to see you step out of that turbo grocery getter. I think you already know Honda reliability but there's a few things a nsx could improve on. Keep in mind, everything on the car will be decades old.

 

[jwmelvin]

I missed a couple of those, thanks for that.

EDIT: I almost wish there was a sticky in here for those links.

Yea, I figured it would be a good chance to pull together a few threads I remembered. No doubt there are many others; I haven't been around here all that long. And I apologize if I seemed unwelcoming. That was not my intent and it is always nice to see a new contributor.

 

[golgo13]

No worries at all.

I'm a super moderator on EvoM, so I understand that ire when someone posts a new thread about ideas from 2005.

It could be worse, I could have posted a thread in the track sub-forum asking how to make an NSX hellaflush...

:applouse:

I'll do some more reading before I begin any more threads.

 

[2slow2speed]

Nice picture of your prior DC2 Integra in front of the Main Stanford Quad.

BTW: You will probably need to get a NSX and strap a CTSC or a SC to be faster than a well sorted out Evo IX (just based on HP alone). Once you add a SC that will automatically require you to add a better braking capacity, better clutch, wider wheels/tires thus resulting on wide fenders, etc, etc. Mods for the NSX are not cheap. It is a very slippery slope.

Look at 1K2GO's track car build to get an idea on how steep the slope actually is.

 

[golgo13]

Nice picture of your prior DC2 Integra in front of the Main Stanford Quad.

Thank you, and good eye.

Look at 1K2GO's track car build to get an idea on how steep the slope actually is.

I will, thanks for the PRO TIP.

I've been watching CTSC track videos on YouTube, it's great. I figured for an arrive-and-drive HPDE car I would leave it N/A first and then once my skills are there, I would look into stepping up into a build with a CTSC.

I ran my evo 99% stock for a couple years. It had a tune, SS lines, pads and fluid.

 

[Jinks]

If your considering a ctsc nsx I think the Oem brakes are adequate enough. As long as your on the low boost setting. All you need to do is downshift. Which I am sure you already know how to do...

 

[solidol]

If your considering a ctsc nsx I think the Oem brakes are adequate enough. As long as your on the low boost setting. All you need to do is downshift. Which I am sure you already know how to do...

It's never enough brakes. My dad always says brakes are cheaper than transmission

 

[Jinks]

It's never enough brakes. My dad always says brakes are cheaper than transmission

Its a Honda. Not a Chevy:wink:

 

[2slow2speed]

If your considering a ctsc nsx I think the Oem brakes are adequate enough. As long as your on the low boost setting. All you need to do is downshift. Which I am sure you already know how to do...

downshifting

Can you walk me down the scenario on how you believe that braking is done at the track?
I think it will help to clarify why I am confused by your post.

 

[golgo13]

Maybe like this?

 

[2slow2speed]

Maybe like this?

Nice video. Pretty sure that you know what you are doing since you don't drive an Evo X with a DCT

I don't think that Jinks been a track newbie (about to join the track junkie ranks in the future) knows that engine braking is not a major part of the deceleration process when going through the braking zone at the track. The video should give him a good initial understanding.

 

[jwmelvin]

I'm no track expert but have been to a handful of days. In my NA NSX, I found the brakes were fine with street tires so long as the pads and fluid were in tip-top shape. Pad choice is important. I would say that once you change anything else on the car, the brakes will start having a harder time keeping up. Perhaps some of this can be addressed with pad choice. The pedal feel with improved brakes is another league from the stock brakes.

And I agree that, while engine braking is the inevitable result of downshifting and the reason that rev matching is important (to minimize the discontinuity in engine braking), it certainty shouldn't be your plan for slowing the car down.

 

[Jinks]

I've never tracked my car. So I'm no expert. But I do feel the Oem brakes are fine enough to stop. It's a light car.
On the track that may be completely different. Btw toe to heel techniques are extremely hard in the tiny footwell of the nsx especially for my size 13 feet.

 

[1K2GO]

Look at 1K2GO's track car build to get an idea on how steep the slope actually is.

The oem brakes are a liability at the track. A Stoptech BBK can be a game changer. It can pay huge dividends when chasing down higher HP cars at the track.

Start here: Building a $50K Track Tool to Beat $500K Track Tools

 

[nsx711]

Besides the performance of the Stoptech brakes, there are some pragmatic reasons also. If you drive your car to the track, it takes no time at all to swap pads when you get there. And if you unexpectedly need to replace pads and don't have any, finding a someone with a spare set to bail you out is easy.

 

[golgo13]

Besides the performance of the Stoptech brakes, there are some pragmatic reasons also. If you drive your car to the track, it takes no time at all to swap pads when you get there. And if you unexpectedly need to replace pads and don't have any, finding a someone with a spare set to bail you out is easy.

I hadn't really thought of that. The floating caliper of the OEM Brembos on the evo make pad swaps super easy when at the track. It takes more time to get the car up and wheels off than everything else.

The oem brakes are a liability at the track. A Stoptech BBK can be a game changer. It can pay huge dividends when chasing down higher HP cars at the track.

Start here: Building a $50K Track Tool to Beat $500K Track Tools

I'll check this out, thanks for that link! Good to know about the BBK, I'll keep that in mind for sure.

Nice video.

The heel+toe .gif I posted? Oh, I can only wish my skills were on that level! It's just a cool clip.

Pretty sure that you know what you are doing since you don't drive an Evo X with a DCT.

Not a fan of the auto trans in performance cars, even if it's faster, more efficient and proven by now... Call me old fashioned?

 

[scammy]

The oem brakes are a liability at the track. A Stoptech BBK can be a game changer. It can pay huge dividends when chasing down higher HP cars at the track.

Start here: Building a $50K Track Tool to Beat $500K Track Tools

if you don't want to go to a BBK just yet getting the 97+ caliper extension and running the larger rotor without the heat shield can make a huge difference but it also depends on which track you go to and the duration of the sessions, there are two main tracks where I am and both are about the same lap times however one is more brutal on the brakes than the other so I keep my sessions to about 10 hard laps and my brakes are fine, if I was doing longer sessions then I would probably need to rethink this, I also have put the Spoon caliper on the 97+ rotor and I have zero brake fade now.
I am also NA so am not going into the corners as hot as some FI cars would do.

 

[golgo13]

Thanks for all of the useful info fellas, I really do appreciate it.

Any tips when looking at an already boosted car outside of the normal PPI, fluids, compression/leakdown test in regards to this chassis specifically?

 

[docjohn]

As you know the track places a lot of intense stress on everything....we are talking about a 25 y/o machine.....I have found incremental increases in problems that have prevented me from finishing weekends as my 96 aged.If you drive to the track be prepared to not be able to drive it home.....Your costs every year will be higher than the evo to keep it fresh.A turbo car more so.

 

[golgo13]

As you know the track places a lot of intense stress on everything....we are talking about a 25 y/o machine.....I have found incremental increases in problems that have prevented me from finishing weekends as my 96 aged.If you drive to the track be prepared to not be able to drive it home.....Your costs every year will be higher than the evo to keep it fresh.A turbo car more so.

Absolutely.

I'm a bit worried about sourcing replacement parts for the chassis. I'm okay with paying upfront costs in the interest of "doing it right the first time" or for improved reliability/longevity to handle the abuse. The limited production numbers makes me weary, unlike something like an E30 where parts are still plentiful.


I'm concerned there are pitfalls I'm not seeing caused by my own naivete with the platform. I abandoned the idea of an LS swapped FD track car because of the limited number of aftermarket support and parts availability caused by the age of the car. What have been your experiences in that regard? (In regards to sourcing parts not considered a consumable on an old chassis/platform)

 

[Jinks]

Replacement parts can be sourced for these cars. It just takes time. Patience you must have with a vehicle this old with whores who hold on to parts to sell for high dollar.

 

[nsxtasy]

I need a reality check from the fellow track junkies that know the platform better than any armchair racer (i.e. me, haha) can.

I've been looking at 91-94 cars (stiffer coupe chassis, I'm told) that are ~100k mi and have had the snap ring service (or out of range) completed and all of the necessary refresh service. When I'm ready to purchase, my budget will be between $35k-$45k depending. A full blown race car is out of the question because I don't have the room for a tow rig and a trailer, so I really need to arrive and drive.

Is there a year that works better as a starting point for a track NSX?
I'll be putting in a baffle for the pan, but what else is recommended? External oil cooler? Transmission cooler?
How are consumables with the NSX?
How is part support for all the stuff that can break from track abuse?
At what point would the NSX benefit from a big brake kit?
The platform is over twenty years old, what bushings need to be replaced? Is there anything else?
Brake ducting?




TLDR: What model is best for the track and what needs replacement?

Hi Noah,

As you can see from my avatar, I've got a little bit of track experience with two of the cars you are discussing. I put over 13K actual track miles on my NSX, and over 10K on my ITR. So here's what I can tell you.

I should mention first, my track usage has been mostly as an instructor in HPDE events. So I've got the experience to take advantage of the car's capabilities, but it's not actual competition so I'm not looking for every last 0.1 second in lap time. My philosophy has generally been, if there are ways to improve lap time without spending a fortune or compromising reliability, I'm happy to consider them. At the same time, my approach is usually incremental - don't do things just because someone says so, try it out as is and decide for yourself if you really need to change anything. With the NSX, very often you'll find that you don't really need to change much of anything.

As for your specific questions...

Most NSXs are similar in performance and capabilities. The coupe is generally preferable to the NSX-T with its removable roof panel; even the NSX-T is a pretty rigid platform, though, and the advantages of the fixed-roof coupe are primarily due to lower weight and also the fact that some track groups don't let you participate with a removable roof. Also the earlier coupes are generally less expensive as well as more numerous.

You really don't need to change all that much. I never changed the stock oil pan, no oil or transmission coolers, stuff like that. One thing worth doing is to get and install the inexpensive harmonic balancer shield, which makes a loud noise if the harmonic balancer pulley comes apart; otherwise it can rub through the timing belt cover, jump the timing, and trash your engine. (BTDT.) It's also worth replacing that pulley every 6-10 years, for the same reason.

I think the stock brake calipers are just fine, perfectly adequate for track use. Of course you'll want high-temperature brake fluid (e.g. Motul RBF600). Use whatever pads you like - track-only pads if you don't mind the noise and dusting and you don't mind swapping the pads if you're going to drive it on the street, or street-track pads (e.g. Hawk HP+ or even the stock pads, which are quite good) as a compromise for dual usage without swapping. Keep a close eye on your rotors, which will crack after a while. Do the usual bedding before using new rotors or switching types of pads. My street-track front pads generally lasted 400-600 actual track miles, my front rotors 1000-1400 track miles, rear pads 600-1000 track miles, rear rotors a long long time. I had cooling ducts running from the front air dam to a flange welded to a hole cut in the splash shields behind the front rotors - not essential, but helpful.

One part that tends to fail is the ball joints, and if you buy them new, you have to buy the entire knuckle and it's expensive. There's a fellow on NSXprime named Steve Ghent and he can rebuild them for you, so that's the way to go if you need it.

I stuck with the stock '91-93 wheels and tire sizes (205/50-15 and 225/50-16) because it's pretty easy to find used wheels inexpensively, there are lots of R compound tires available in those sizes, and you can fit a set of track wheels and tires in those sizes inside the car and drive to the track on your street tires (with a rear in the trunk, a front behind the passenger seat, and one of each on top of the passenger seat). Another advantage of those sizes is that you can also use the front R comp tires on the ITR, so I was able to use those as hand-me-downs from the NSX. However, if you go to bigger calipers (or even the '97-05 calipers), those sizes won't work, so keep that in mind.

So that's a pretty good summary. Feel free to ask more questions!

- - - Updated - - -

As you know the track places a lot of intense stress on everything....we are talking about a 25 y/o machine.....I have found incremental increases in problems that have prevented me from finishing weekends as my 96 aged.If you drive to the track be prepared to not be able to drive it home.....Your costs every year will be higher than the evo to keep it fresh.A turbo car more so.

I don't disagree with this. However, as a point of information, in my ~100 track events in the NSX, I was only unable to drive it home twice - once when the clutch failed*, and once when the harmonic balancer pulley failed as noted above. This doesn't count once when the car had a problem when it was brand new, and a few times when my pads or rotors reached the end of their useful life towards the end of the event and I didn't want to bother changing them until I got home, so I drove home on them.

*Each of my (stock) clutches lasted around 40K overall miles including 6K actual track miles. Each failed when a spring broke, so it was a sudden failure, not one where you were warned by the clutch starting to slip.