Title for my '91 NSX

[warrenw]

My NSX is from the Chicago area, I had the car imported to Canada 8 years ago.
I am trying to understand Car Titles for IL. Here in Canada, cars are not titled, they are registered. completely different system.

my question is this: Is there a way to get the old IL title for my car? And how is that done?

I will sell this car eventually, and I would like access to the US market place.

 

[Larry Bastanza]

Hi Warren,

I beleive the previous owner(name on Title) must request a copy from the US DMV, assuming the Title was not transfered to you. If the original Title was transfered to you, sorry to say I have no idea.

So how did you execute ownership? Did you provide the original title when you registered in Canada?

HTH,
LarryB

 

[Old Guy]

Used Canadian market cars do on occasion make their way into US ownership and the lack of a 'title document' does not seem to have been an issue. In Saskatchewan, if the vehicle sale is not from a registered vehicle dealer the normal process is that the transfer of ownership requires using the transfer of ownership document slip that is attached to the vehicle's registration document. I had presumed that the transfer of ownership document was presumed to be the equivalent of a title for the purposes of export to the US. Is this a concern because the car has a US market VIN rather than a Canadian VIN?

About 2 years ago, I remember a thread where someone was having difficulty returning a US market VIN NSX from Canada to the US. However, their problem was that they were having trouble getting the waiver on outstanding recalls from an Acura dealership. I know from experience with my dealership that when they entered my US market VIN into their info system it came up as an invalid entry. They asked if it was a US market car and advised that they can't access details on US market VINs. I expect that you would have to pay or sweet-talk a US dealership to print out that recall waiver (or whatever it is called) before the car could be exported back to the US. Perhaps if you search for that thread you could contact the poster to find out the details of the repatriation process.

Interested in the title question because I also have an ex US market car.

 

[warrenw]

The car was exported from the US and imported into Canada. I do have the Title number and owner name, address, etc.
I purchased the car from the original owner in 2007, then used a broker to move the car through the export import process. Basically the broker owned the car through that process, so technically I am the third owner of the car.

I am looking for the actual title paperwork. Can it be requested from DMV?

 

[Larry Bastanza]

I am not sure. In the past for me, if I needed a copy of a title I needed to be the person who's name was on the title to request a copy from the DMV.

 

[MattSomers]

Great question. I imported my NSX from Connecticut to BC a few months back. From what I recall, ICBC (our provincial insurance company) kept my original title and gave me a photocopy. As such, I'm not sure how, if at all, you can get your hands back on that original title from the U.S.

 

[Speedmaster]

https://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/StatusCheck

So, I may have some experience with this topic (ask me about my 6+ titles I had to go through to get mine corrected.)

Check the link above (use your VIN) and then...use this link to see the rules. http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/vehicles/title_and_registration/duplicate_titles.html

If you need my help, let me know. I will be happy to try.

 

[Speedmaster]

Great question. I imported my NSX from Connecticut to BC a few months back. From what I recall, ICBC (our provincial insurance company) kept my original title and gave me a photocopy. As such, I'm not sure how, if at all, you can get your hands back on that original title from the U.S.

When I bought an NA2 from outside Toronto (Grimsby was it?) I took possession and brought the car back into the states. It was originally delivered to California. I found the original title in the map pocket behind the passenger seat.

 

[alum04org]

when i bought an na2 from outside toronto (grimsby was it?) i took possession and brought the car back into the states. It was originally delivered to california. I found the original title in the map pocket behind the passenger seat.

wow! That would be an incredible find

Know you loved seeing that:biggrin: I sure would - every car has its surprises, eh?

 

[crxguy52]

I imported my car from Vancouver to the US, and the only real sticking point was paying an import tax on it. Despite the CBP website specifically saying that previously registered US vehicles can be re-imported without paying the import tax (2.5%, which isn't a negligible amount with the value of these cars), I was hassled for like 2 hours at the border. Apparently there was a law passed a few years ago that states that if the car has been out of the country for more than 3 years, you have to pay the import tax again... which is stated nowhere on any US government website, and none of the CBP agents know about it even if you call the border crossing station. Not that I'm salty about it or anything :tongue:

If you want proof the car was previously registered in the US, the Canadian import paperwork should work. I was lucky and had a photocopy of the original title, but CBP wouldn't accept that as "official documentation". When I registered it at my DMV they wanted the Canadian insurance card (from the ICBC) and the Canadian title transfer form, filled out and submitted to the NC DMV. Not sure why they wanted that, but it seemed to do the trick.

For the sake of a US buyer, please be up front about this import tax. It adds a significant cost to the car, and it can be frustrating if it shows up midway home.

 

[MattSomers]

There's definite costs associated with bringing a car into Canada from the States. I imported a 95 NSX this year and had to pay both a provincial and federal tax on it, as well as duty at the border.

 

[warrenw]

https://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/StatusCheck

So, I may have some experience with this topic (ask me about my 6+ titles I had to go through to get mine corrected.)

Check the link above (use your VIN) and then...use this link to see the rules. http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/departments/vehicles/title_and_registration/duplicate_titles.html

If you need my help, let me know. I will be happy to try.

Thanks, for some reason I cannot get to either site.

 

[warrenw]

There's definite costs associated with bringing a car into Canada from the States. I imported a 95 NSX this year and had to pay both a provincial and federal tax on it, as well as duty at the border.

Interesting, In 2007, I imported this car from Chicago, to Edmonton, AB. No PST here.. As well, no duty, as the car was more than 15 years old. I paid GST on the car and the import brokerage charges.
You should have used a broker.

 

[MattSomers]

I don't think Alberta has any provincial sales tax, so that's probably why you managed to dodge that one

The rules might have changed since I think there's no duty on cars that are 25 years or older. At the time, my NSX was 22 years old so I missed out on this one as well and had to pay the 6.1% tax. I used a broker so I assume they knew what they were doing....

 

[Old Guy]

The Registrar of Imported Vehicles web site provides an excellent starting point for the process of importing vehicles into Canada from the US. Assuming your vehicle is eligible, the RIV import fee is $295 plus tax unless the vehicle is over 15 years of age in which case the RIV fee is waived. There is a bit of a conflict between RIV and CBSA as CBSA implies that if the vehicle is over 15 years you don't have to go through the RIV process at all. I thought you still had to go through the process, they just waived the fee and the standards that are part of the RIV process were not applicable (hence the 15 year old JDM imports that show up in Canada).

There are other costs associated with import in addition to the RIV fee:

- GST is normally paid on the vehicle at the point and time it crosses the border. CBSA collects the GST and the vehicle doesn't get in without payment.
- In every province but Alberta PST must be paid on the vehicle. In some province's this occurs at the time of registration and in some provinces where PST is harmonized the PST must be remitted at the border when the GST is paid.
- The vehicle must go through a RIV approved inspection as part of the approval process - that price can be variable depending on the inspection firm.
- Depending on the province, the motor vehicle authority may require a safety inspection - you might be able to get that at the same time as you get the RIV inspection; but, they are two distinct 'things'.
- Cost for modifications to bring the car into compliance with Federal / Provincial regulations (typically DRLs and maybe speedo fixes).
- Air conditioning tax - paid at the border crossing
- Gas guzzler tax - that one I am a bit fuzzy about. It came into effect in 2007 so I think it only applies to vehicles that are imported that were built on or after 2007. I don't recall it being an add on for the NSX .
- The import duty of 6.1% to be paid at the border crossing. The import duty is waived if the car is a NAFTA vehicle. The original NSX is definitely not a NAFTA vehicle and is subject to the 6.1% duty. I don't recall anything about the duty being waived for cars greater than 25 years of age; but, I am not an expert. I seem to recall that there is a 25 year rule in the US which has allowed people to start importing JDM NSXs into the US.
- You need an export permit to get the vehicle out of the US. I can't remember whether there is a fee associated with that or not.

 

[Old Guy]

For the sake of a US buyer, please be up front about this import tax. It adds a significant cost to the car, and it can be frustrating if it shows up midway home.

The original NSX is not a NAFTA vehicle. Every time an NSX crosses the US / Canada / Mexico border for sale it is subject to the applicable import duties. It should not be up to a seller in Canada to make an importer aware of the applicable US duties and fees unless they are offering the car in US$ landed in the US in which case the seller would assume responsibility for all of that and price the vehicle appropriately. I doubt that any sellers on Prime are giving potential Canadian customers consideration for the fact that they are going to get hit with a 6.1% duty when they bring an NSX into Canada. 2.5% - count yourself lucky!

 

[crxguy52]

The original NSX is not a NAFTA vehicle. Every time an NSX crosses the US / Canada / Mexico border for sale it is subject to the applicable import duties. It should not be up to a seller in Canada to make an importer aware of the applicable US duties and fees unless they are offering the car in US$ landed in the US in which case the seller would assume responsibility for all of that and price the vehicle appropriately. I doubt that any sellers on Prime are giving potential Canadian customers consideration for the fact that they are going to get hit with a 6.1% duty when they bring an NSX into Canada. 2.5% - count yourself lucky!

I only said this because despite the US border patrol website clearly stating that no tax should be due, it may become an issue when the car is brought back to the US. It was frustrating for me, and I wish I'd known it up front. If it was clearly stated on the CBP website that a tax was due, I wouldn't even have mentioned it because the US buyer should do their homework.

 

[Old Guy]

Actually, the US CBP site does set out duty requirements or at least it does now. Check 1/2 way down the page under Dutiable Entry:

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/importing-car

The key wording is Foreign-Made. The NSX doesn't have the 1, 2, 3 ... at the start of the VIN that indicates a NAFTA zone vehicle. That makes it foreign made and subject to duty every time it crosses the border.

 

[alum04org]

Bottom line, Warren, if I was you I would attempt to request a certified ILLinois title history from the IL Secretary of State's Office.

You may be able to query your NSX's VIN (if it has not gone beyond purge criteria in IL) here

http://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/StatusCheck

You must have passed to Alberta government (BMV/DMV/Transport Canada) the ILLinois title you received upon purchase. The ILLinois title history you hopefully order/receive should reflect IL title surrender into Alberta. Then, you may also request (I hope) an Alberta title history on your own NSX which would show the ILLinois title being surrendered. That completes your NSX's paper trail and would provide for continuity.

Questions, if I missed anything, welcome.

Some states in USA (i.e. our state of Michigan) have motor vehicle records purge criteria - our state retains motor vehicle records for current calendar year, plus six (6) years. Beyond that with no changes in title transfer, registration renewal/change, change of address, duplicate title app, law enforcement interest, etc. etc. the title record by VIN disappears. It is sometimes able to be renewed by what is known as a "manual lookup."



Happy Christmas to you and Wifey.

 

[crxguy52]

Actually, the US CBP site does set out duty requirements or at least it does now. Check 1/2 way down the page under Dutiable Entry:

https://www.cbp.gov/trade/basic-import-export/importing-car

The key wording is Foreign-Made. The NSX doesn't have the 1, 2, 3 ... at the start of the VIN that indicates a NAFTA zone vehicle. That makes it foreign made and subject to duty every time it crosses the border.

This is exactly what the border patrol agent said, and he was mistaken. My specific car was originally sold as a US car, which was then imported to Canada. I was then technically re-importing the vehicle to the US. According to the CBP the import tax was already paid (at the time of entry to the US when the car was new) and therefore not subject to a tax on importation again. Keep scrolling down on the link you posted, the website says the following:

Re-Importing A Previously Exported Vehicle
A vehicle taken from the United States for non-commercial, private use may be returned duty free by proving to CBP that it was previously owned and registered in the United States. This proof may be a state-issued registration card for the automobile or a bill of sale for the car from a U.S. dealer. Repairs or accessories acquired abroad for your vehicle must be declared on your return and may be subject to duty.
In some countries, it will be difficult or impossible to obtain unleaded fuel for your vehicle. If the vehicle is driven using leaded gasoline, it will be necessary for you to replace the catalyst and oxygen sensor upon its return to the U.S. To avoid the expense of replacing these parts you may obtain authorization from EPA to remove the catalyst and oxygen sensor before the vehicle is shipped overseas. The EPA telephone number for these authorizations is (202) 564-2418. When the vehicle returns to the U.S., the original catalyst and oxygen sensor will need to be reinstalled. However, you may now reenter your U.S. version vehicle into the U.S. without bond, upon your assurance that you will have the reinstallation performed.

It doesn't mention if the car was a NAFTA car or not. I'm not trying to start some flame war here, I was just sharing my experience in the hope that it saves someone else the trouble. I didn't end up paying the import tax due to the section I quoted above off the CBP website, but it sure was frustrating to read that and then get hassled at the border.

 

[Old Guy]

No flaming perceived or intended.

The wording is 'legalish' and requires a lot of parsing to figure out what it actually means. The fact that lawyers are in love with run on sentences does not help - I just executed an agreement to transfer some shares that I own and the agreement had one sentence that was 14 lines long!

I saw that paragraph. I think the wording of the paragraph you flagged 'might' be intended to address the case where a US citizen leaves the US for a period of time for work, student or whatever (beyond a visitor provision) and takes their existing vehicle with them and this provision allows them to return to the US with that vehicle without incurring the duty. The reason I suggest that intent is that the purpose describes 'non commercial, private-use'. It is totally silent about a vehicle that is taken from the US for sale. The words 're-importing a previously exported vehicle' might make people think 'sale'; but, if you come to Canada for a stay beyond temporary visitor status you have to register the vehicle in Canada which probably flags the car as being exported.

The above provision would be separate to the Duty Free provision that appears to allow a temporarily returning US citizen to bring a non NAFTA vehicle back into the US duty free providing they export the car when they leave.

My beakiing is probably academic. Your observation that US citizens buying an NSX from Canada pay 2.5% in US duty regardless of whether the vehicle is an ex US market or a Canadian market vehicle is what matters.

 

[crxguy52]

I saw that paragraph. I think the wording of the paragraph you flagged 'might' be intended to address the case where a US citizen leaves the US for a period of time for work, student or whatever (beyond a visitor provision) and takes their existing vehicle with them and this provision allows them to return to the US with that vehicle without incurring the duty. The reason I suggest that intent is that the purpose describes 'non commercial, private-use'. It is totally silent about a vehicle that is taken from the US for sale. The words 're-importing a previously exported vehicle' might make people think 'sale'; but, if you come to Canada for a stay beyond temporary visitor status you have to register the vehicle in Canada which probably flags the car as being exported.

The above provision would be separate to the Duty Free provision that appears to allow a temporarily returning US citizen to bring a non NAFTA vehicle back into the US duty free providing they export the car when they leave.

There is a grey area here, and it's how I ended up not having to pay. They agreed that the wording was vague and let me go on my way, but I see your point. It could very well be intended for someone who leaves the country and returns with the same vehicle. Unfortunately I didn't interpret it this way in my buying process, and it lead to a headache at the border. I hope this helps others out in the future that may encounter this.

 

[warrenw]

My VIN doesn't show up in this search site, http://www.ilsos.gov/regstatus/StatusCheck and the 800 number on the site isn't accessible outside of the USA.
The car was imported via a broker into Manitoba, passed Manitoba out of province inspection, move to myself in Alberta and I had to get an OOP inspection for Alberta, 25 min process and the car has been registered here since. CARFAX has all the info, including original IL Title number, (except miles/kms mixup: Canada doesn't understand miles, US doesn't understand kms). It has actually been 10 years since this car was exported out of the US. (time flies). Maybe the old title info has been purged?

 

[warrenw]

This is exactly what the border patrol agent said, and he was mistaken. My specific car was originally sold as a US car, which was then imported to Canada. I was then technically re-importing the vehicle to the US. According to the CBP the import tax was already paid (at the time of entry to the US when the car was new) and therefore not subject to a tax on importation again. Keep scrolling down on the link you posted, the website says the following:



It doesn't mention if the car was a NAFTA car or not. I'm not trying to start some flame war here, I was just sharing my experience in the hope that it saves someone else the trouble. I didn't end up paying the import tax due to the section I quoted above off the CBP website, but it sure was frustrating to read that and then get hassled at the border.

Did your car end up getting a new title, as it was exported before? or did was the old title used for the import?

 

[crxguy52]

Did your car end up getting a new title, as it was exported before? or did was the old title used for the import?

I imported to NC, but it may be different state by state. I only needed the Canadian registration and the Canadian APB9T form, filled out as if the car was being transferred to me. Once I turned that into my DMV they mailed me a new title. You shouldn't have any issues with US buyers registering it at their local DMV. Ironically, that was the easy part for me... can't believe I just used 'easy' and 'DMV' in the same sentence .

When I crossed the border I had to fill out a DOT form HS-7 and EPA form 3520-1, which were both easy to fill out because the car was a US car. There are also exemptions on both forms for the car being more than 25 years old, which are similar to the "US car" exemption in that you shouldn't have to provide any other paperwork. There is a third option where you can claim that the car is a Canadian car and you're importing it, but I believe that requires a letter from Honda stating something about safety and emissions. You should fall into the first category, however, so it should be easy. Feel free to have your eventual buyer reach out to me if they have questions, the process was kind of crazy and I'm happy to help a fellow NSX enthusiast.