Ah, I misread it.....you are correct. So, electricity is roughly equal to pre-war levels...exceeding it some days, below on others.
The Iraqi's just don't get it.
- Thread starter RP-Motorsports
- Start date
That is correct. But as I'm sure you realize, even pre-war levels were rather poor. Keep in mind that the Iraqi people blame Americans for that also, since it was our bombing during the 1990s that destroyed all their generators, and the UN imposed sanctions which did not allow them to buy new parts to repair them.
So in order to make them happy, we will have to do much better than the pre-war levels and will have to get things back to what existed there in the 1980s. That is going to be difficult with the insurgents bombing these sites on a daily basis. Unfortuntely, the longer this problem exists, the more it will fuel the ongoing anti-American sentiment there.
I don't know what the solution here is, but in my opinion, we should leave there all-together and perhaps donate parts & equipment and allow the new Iraqi government to do this themselves. But with the big no-bid contracts given to Haliburton, Bechtel & GE, that is not very likely to happen. There is too much money to be made in the reconstruction of Iraq.
So in order to make them happy, we will have to do much better than the pre-war levels and will have to get things back to what existed there in the 1980s. That is going to be difficult with the insurgents bombing these sites on a daily basis. Unfortuntely, the longer this problem exists, the more it will fuel the ongoing anti-American sentiment there.
I don't know what the solution here is, but in my opinion, we should leave there all-together and perhaps donate parts & equipment and allow the new Iraqi government to do this themselves. But with the big no-bid contracts given to Haliburton, Bechtel & GE, that is not very likely to happen. There is too much money to be made in the reconstruction of Iraq.
It just goes back to the main point I was making....things are not as bad as portrayed. Believe me, there are plenty of Iraqi's that want us there....they do want to be in charge of themselves, but they are unable to provide security for themselves at the moment. Are there groups that want us to leave? Yes. Mostly those who had government jobs under the old regime. There's some other groups such as Sadr's militia too. But there's many groups to that want Sadr arrested. Some are disaapointed that things didn't get better as quickly as they had hoped.... (much like attitudes in the post-Soviet Union or the former Yugoslavia), but the vast majority are happy Saddam is gone and are appreciative of the U.S.
How do I know this? Do I have a news article link to show you?
No.
But, I have been there....have friends there now, and if you wait a month and a half I'll give you another update when I get back over there.
How do I know this? Do I have a news article link to show you?
No.
But, I have been there....have friends there now, and if you wait a month and a half I'll give you another update when I get back over there.
pbassjo said:
Or, why not jack up the prices of everything that is supplied to them??? They have NOTHING besides OIL. Medical supplies, cars, food, machinery, steel, jewelery, wood...they have NOTHING....just raise the prices a little bit or stop some supply all together! We have enough oil stockpiled to hold ourselves on until they suffer so badly that they can't afford not to quit holding back....idk, just my .02
Brian2by2 said:
Because the US cannot do it alone. The middle east can get everything they need from China/Russia/Europe. All big oil consumers, and China is expected to be a huge oil consumer as it continues to industrialize. Because of this, right now the US needs the middle east more than they need us.
dlongo said:
Yes but their economy isn't doing that incredibly well, or I should say its not doing well enough that a loss from the US from both ends (buying oil and supplying other goods) wouldn't affect them. Not only that, this strike needs to be on a larger scale than just the USA...the UN should intervene in this. I don't know if they're allowed to make decisions like that, but enough is enough.
Brian2by2 said:
I suppose the UN could organize some big boycott or sanctions but it's really not practical to get the security council to go along. China, Russia and France have no incentive to take a big economic hit just to help out the US. I don't think a punitive trade war is the right answer, nor would it be supported by an American public who tend to be very concerned about gas prices, jobs, and the stock market.
I dunno -- I cut the average Iraqi some slack. He's not very educated, has been under a totalitarian government controlled press, media, and education system for 30 years, and then is STILL hearing other anti-US propeganda from the few news sources they do get from neigboring arab states.
We need to break the cycle of misinformation, starting with the kids. We can't have schools there and elsewhere preaching hate to young children instead of math and reading. We need to commit long term, with money and troops, to pacifying and re-building these nations, just as we did with Western Europe and Japan after WW2. Lots of money spent and lives lost there (tho rarely covered by the news), yet I think it's safe to say the results in hindsight are quite positive when looking at those areas today. Always surprises me how quickly people forget what it took post-ww2 to accomplish what we did and expect there to be no lives lost and a big group hug in Iraq once or soon after the official war ended. *boggle* No, no -- gonna take lots of time, money, and lives to re-build that nation (but, arguably, well worth it).
We need to break the cycle of misinformation, starting with the kids. We can't have schools there and elsewhere preaching hate to young children instead of math and reading. We need to commit long term, with money and troops, to pacifying and re-building these nations, just as we did with Western Europe and Japan after WW2. Lots of money spent and lives lost there (tho rarely covered by the news), yet I think it's safe to say the results in hindsight are quite positive when looking at those areas today. Always surprises me how quickly people forget what it took post-ww2 to accomplish what we did and expect there to be no lives lost and a big group hug in Iraq once or soon after the official war ended. *boggle* No, no -- gonna take lots of time, money, and lives to re-build that nation (but, arguably, well worth it).
saxonsaxon
Guest
Flip
Have you guys ever contemplated the opposite? Perhaps it is you who just do not get it ?
Have you guys ever contemplated the opposite? Perhaps it is you who just do not get it ?
cmhs75 said:
The so-called God following bad apples of the religion.
Re: Flip
The closest thing the world has seen to the NAZI party has been brewing for over a decade and it shows itself for what it really is on 911 w/o regard for any life, the boil needs lancing, so even their own countrymen are targets, then displays video taped horrific acts against people they see as nothing more than a farm animals being slaughtered. What is difference between them and the SS officers & NAZI fanatics (etc) that systematically hoped to eliminate the Jews during the Holicost ? Nothing, except they havn't been able to acheive those numbers yet!! God help us all if they are ever able to achieve the methods to make that happen. They see no difference between anyone except those that agree w/them. The will and are training their children in the ways that were done some 50 years ago to the horror of the world w/o discrimination.
So I ask you, have you ever contemplated the opposite ? Appearantly you don't get it or you maybe you understand something about them alot of us don't. To understand what those bastards are or to frame it in the context you have is mind boggling and ignorant of we as a nation and world may be facing here!
saxonsaxon said:Have you guys ever contemplated the opposite? Perhaps it is you who just do not get it ?
The closest thing the world has seen to the NAZI party has been brewing for over a decade and it shows itself for what it really is on 911 w/o regard for any life, the boil needs lancing, so even their own countrymen are targets, then displays video taped horrific acts against people they see as nothing more than a farm animals being slaughtered. What is difference between them and the SS officers & NAZI fanatics (etc) that systematically hoped to eliminate the Jews during the Holicost ? Nothing, except they havn't been able to acheive those numbers yet!! God help us all if they are ever able to achieve the methods to make that happen. They see no difference between anyone except those that agree w/them. The will and are training their children in the ways that were done some 50 years ago to the horror of the world w/o discrimination.
So I ask you, have you ever contemplated the opposite ? Appearantly you don't get it or you maybe you understand something about them alot of us don't. To understand what those bastards are or to frame it in the context you have is mind boggling and ignorant of we as a nation and world may be facing here!
What we have done in Iraq, has helped "those bastards" enormously. Their recruitment numbers are going through the roof. They probably have "Bush 2004" bumper stickers on their cars". If he gets re-elected, they will most certainly achieve the numbers that you speak of.
saxonsaxon
Guest
Re: Re: Flip
As a person who has done a fair share of travelling and have visited Muslim/Arab countries, I can assure you that most of those people are human beings who think, feel, cry, smile, and would like to live their lives in just, fair and democtratc societies. Comparing thme to nazis is not fair. You live in a country where there are still many open mided smart people who see the big picture. I suggest a subscription to Harper's Magazine, which should start you off in the right direction. Do not just get your information from your local tv station.
Tom Larkins said:
As a person who has done a fair share of travelling and have visited Muslim/Arab countries, I can assure you that most of those people are human beings who think, feel, cry, smile, and would like to live their lives in just, fair and democtratc societies. Comparing thme to nazis is not fair. You live in a country where there are still many open mided smart people who see the big picture. I suggest a subscription to Harper's Magazine, which should start you off in the right direction. Do not just get your information from your local tv station.
Re: Re: Re: Flip
Well I do consider myself open minded and don't really take alot of whats said on TV to heart nor do I watch much b/c they are idiot parrots and most of them should be slapped on a daily basis for being bias. (Read my first post) I get my info from an employee of mine whom has been in Iraq (8 months), also from the 87th & 101st. Also a friends wife whom was called up as a ER field surgeon. Also I read other information and make my own discerning opinion on the merit and content. Harpers magazine.....never heard of it. Alot of people have better info than magazines. Its called first hand accounts from folks I know that don't have an adjenda to push. No I havn't traveled to the mid-east and I don't totally have knowledge of the culture other than what I studied and heard through others I know...that doesn't make me ignorant of certain facts.
saxonsaxon said:Comparing thme to nazis is not fair.
Its not Muslims I'm comparing to the Nazi's. Its the Muslims that are doing the extremist acts. I don't know how much more clear I have to be and you making the leap from my post to a generalization about Muslims is false. Parrallel that comparison of a fool that kills abortion doctors or a nurse b/c he doesn't believe in abortion and then says he is doing it in the name of God. With one exception, those behind whats being seen pose a greater threat to the world.
I suggest a subscription to Harper's Magazine, which should start you off in the right direction. Do not just get your information from your local tv station.
Well I do consider myself open minded and don't really take alot of whats said on TV to heart nor do I watch much b/c they are idiot parrots and most of them should be slapped on a daily basis for being bias. (Read my first post) I get my info from an employee of mine whom has been in Iraq (8 months), also from the 87th & 101st. Also a friends wife whom was called up as a ER field surgeon. Also I read other information and make my own discerning opinion on the merit and content. Harpers magazine.....never heard of it. Alot of people have better info than magazines. Its called first hand accounts from folks I know that don't have an adjenda to push. No I havn't traveled to the mid-east and I don't totally have knowledge of the culture other than what I studied and heard through others I know...that doesn't make me ignorant of certain facts.
These people are a product of poor education and an ignorance of the rest of the world. They are brainwashed when they are young that America and the west is evil, and that their specific religious sect is the only acceptable way of life. Learning about other cultures is blasphemy. These peoples leaders prefer to keep them ignorant and closed off. This perpetuates the problem. Generation after generation all believe the same antiquated principles, while the rest of the world moves forward. 30 years of rule by leaders like Saddam and Arafat are a main source of this blind hatred. Should we allow these men to continue to spew hateful and uninformed retoric? There is no freedom of the press or an open exchange of ideas in these countries. If you spoke critically of Saddam's policies, you got your tongue cut out. The current prime minister of Iraq was attacked by Saddam's hencemen 20 years ago. They were using an axe, and he still walks with a limp today. Arafat is a billionaire with most of his money in out-of-country accounts, while his "people" live in poverty with a bleak future. He prefers it this way. I support the President in trying to free these people that live under represive regimes. They will never come to like and understand us if they are never allowed to freely learn about us.
Electro said:
Really Electro, 9-11 intervention by the Mr. Moore.
The last time you tried posting a video clip you got hacked by the moderator. Remember that.....a short clip of a militant in Iraq laying on the ground wounded seen from a distance w/troops shooting him w/them cheering in the background. Then it shows a American GI say how good it felt to get him which made it appear as if they were on a vacation hunting trip aka M. Moore editing. Some of us have seen the entire report from CNN. Others may have not, but your little clip was taken way out of context leaving out the personal interviews w/soldiers, feelings of remorse over the loss of life which shead a differing lite and the difficulty of daily living w/remorse. Its easy to chime in w/the M. Moore school of thought b/c when you make propaganda and believe it as fact you can try to hijack threads to spread it w/o thought that another thread already exist on Prime that covers that topic.
Happy 4th everyone, the office is dark, the SeaRay is in the water and the kids have fireworks and I'm out. Responding to slams after the 5th.
Tom Larkins said:
Actually, in the movie, Moore shows a soldier who is very upset about all the death he has seen and during the interview he says that whenever you kill another person, a part of yourself dies as well. He does not show the troops to be happy about killing. He shows the complete opposite.
foxy-abby said:
Much like the way I was taught about communism when I was in school. Only much later in life, when I have a friend that grew up in the Soviet Union, do I find out that most of what I learned were lies.
foxy-abby said:
Because if they were well informed, they would not accept rule under the current leadership. Contrary to what we are told on television, people in the Middle East do not hate freedom and democracy. Only their leaders do. The common people simply do not know what freedom & democracy really are all about and are brainwashed into believing that anything that comes from the Western World is bad.
foxy-abby said:
The two you state here are not even close to comparable. Arafat was elected by his people. He has never even been accused of human rights abuses, or anything of the sort. He is no saint, but he is not Saddam Hussein.
foxy-abby said:
There sure is in Palestine. They have access there to media from the entire Arab world, as well as Israel. They even get CNN and Fox News on their TVs.
foxy-abby said:
Saddam was a ruthless dictator. There are 25-30 others just like him in other countries throughout the world. Many of them, such as Saparmurad Niazov in Turkmenistan, receive military aid from our government, the same as Saddam did in the 1980s. I think this is terrible.
foxy-abby said:
I do too, but this is not their motive. They do not care about freeing anyone. In some cases, our government has actually ousted democratically elected governments and replaced them with repressive dictatorships. Chile and Guatemala come to mind.
All of our foreign policy today is dictated by money and big business. Human rights and democracy are just excuses that they use when they can. It certainly helps when the leader they wish to oust is someone like Saddam Hussein.
Eric5273 said:
there you go again with your isolation and appeasement 'solution' again, thinking that not dealing with evil is somehow not evil in and of itself.
The terrorists were coming no matter what we did, and they are coming no matter what we do, until there is enough change that the world stops making so many.
I dunno... sorry, you sound like England under Chamberlain who let evil prevail by trying to appease it. You sound like those who argued against stopping the spread of Communism.
Such 'logic' has never worked. We have to proactively do something about the problem of totalitarian states (or any other group) using religion or any other ideology to brainwash their masses into hating us to the point that they commit terrorism. And to do this, you have to take the fight to them.
Does that potentially make it worse for a while? Perhaps, but perhaps not. But even if so, it doesn't change the necessity of acting as opposed to sticking our heads in ground and doing nothing.
Eric5273 said:
Oh, do tell -- I want to hear this
What lies did your friend expose? Was the Soviet Union really a lovely place and not a totalitarian and expansionist regime? Was the government (especially under Stalin) not responsible for more murders and other atrocities than Hitler?Let us know
Eric5273 said:
Agreed.... so shouldn't we remove for our benefit, their benefit, and the world, these regimes?
Eric5273 said:
Oh, please. Elected? You mean like how Saddam was elected? He has never been accused of abuses? Wow. We're in different realities again, becuse that's not my understanding.
Eric5273 said:
Do they speak English such that they could understand what they're hearing? Why do they tolerate terrorists running around and attacking Israel? If they have access to free information and aren't under an environment of oppression, then why the abject poverity and the toleration and sometime support of those who commit terrorist acts in Israel? Someting doesn't add up.
Eric5273 said:
Saddam was a ruthless dictator. There are 25-30 others just like him in other countries throughout the world. Many of them, such as Saparmurad Niazov in Turkmenistan, receive military aid from our government, the same as Saddam did in the 1980s. I think this is terrible.
Sometimes you have to support the lesser of two evils, and in the ever changing geopolitical world, this shifts around a bit. I wish we didn't have to do this, but it's been the right choice in the past as many or more times than it was the wrong choice (though we've certainly screwed things up often too -- Cuba comes to mind -- supporting Batista without demanding he change things helped Castro rally the populace to his aid).
Eric5273 said:
Again, I question whether these people were truly democratically elected... again, Saddam was 'elected'. FREE elections are the key, and also by a populace who has had freedom of the press and education such that they cannot be easily duped into electing a bad person into power.
Saying we don't want to see freedom in general is ludicrous and contrary to history, though. Our security and vital interests come first, but then after that comes freedom for other people.
Eric5273 said:
That's right, I forgot... we live in an evil government who controls our media and we're brainwashed too. This discourse is an illusion too probably.
*boggle*
Yup, I'm brainwashed.Z18 said:
saxonsaxon
Guest
Information
Suggestions:
1. Do subscribe to Harper's Magazine, it will open youur horizons.
2. Do travel to other countries and meet the people before you judge them so harshly.
3. Getting information from miulitary serving in Iraq could be construded as one sided don't you think? It is like asking nazi soldiers in the concentration camp about Jews deserving their fate.
(disclaimer: I am NOT comparing US soldiers to SS).
4. Celebrate 4th of July: our Independence Day and ask yourself a question : how would you feel if all of the sudden a country with roughly 400 years of history would try to civilize people who can trace their culture back at least 3000 years.
Tom Larkins said:
Suggestions:
1. Do subscribe to Harper's Magazine, it will open youur horizons.
2. Do travel to other countries and meet the people before you judge them so harshly.
3. Getting information from miulitary serving in Iraq could be construded as one sided don't you think? It is like asking nazi soldiers in the concentration camp about Jews deserving their fate.
(disclaimer: I am NOT comparing US soldiers to SS).
4. Celebrate 4th of July: our Independence Day and ask yourself a question : how would you feel if all of the sudden a country with roughly 400 years of history would try to civilize people who can trace their culture back at least 3000 years.
