Test pipes increase engine risk?

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15 October 2002
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I am wondering what type of risks to the car increase if you free up power by removing the cats.

I ask this because with the autorotor CTSC, it appears that if you pull the cats, using only the basic bolt ons and the 6lb kit, that a NA2 will put out about 395 to the wheels. That is maybe even more then what the same car would put down with the high boost kit and a full-on AEM EMS with injectors and pump and tune, etc...

Increasing the boost has the inherent risks that are obvious. But I am not clear what risks are increased if the exhaust flow is increased via pulling the cats. Will the car run leaner? Will the increased power increase heat or stress on the engine components? Does anything change?

TIA

Dave
 
uh-oh...someone is doing research....

I can see the hamster turning the wheel.:biggrin:

You guys are lucky..we have emissions testing here in Texas.. If we didn't, I would put those pipes on also.
 
Wheelman said:
You guys are lucky..we have emissions testing here in Texas.. If we didn't, I would put those pipes on also.

We have testing here, too. But things can change the day before and I know of at least one station that enjoys seeing catless cars come by :wink: I wouldnt pass with a high boost set up either as I couldnt plug in BTW.

But I try to be a responsible person. Just looking to learn as much about the dynamics involved at this point. :wink:
 
I think the risks are more or less the same. You're generating more power so everything from the drivetrain to the wheels will be under more stress. You can also expect a MIL because the rear O2 sensors will either be unplugged or they won't show a benefit from the cats.
 
But if you are moving more air under the same fuel map, are you not running leaner?

Is this what happens when you pull cats? You move more air?
 
SPA_S2000 said:
But if you are moving more air under the same fuel map, are you not running leaner?

Is this what happens when you pull cats? You move more air?

I understand your question but think of how the air gets in?

You are only moving SO much air with the SC, air intake, and......
Now some engines run better with some back presser but you get that with your exhaust.

Now if your running open pipes than.........

Jeff
 
Dave, I think you are getting out of control.

Here is what I would say.

1. removing the test pipes makes the car STINK.

2. It also makes the car so freaking loud it is unbearable. (at least with the anytime)

3. Just because one car made 395 doesn't mean yours will. Different car, different dyno, different conditions, different day. There is no way you are going to pick up that much HP. When I put the cats back on mine there was no noticeable difference. I would never take them out again.
 
LOL with you Dave! :D

But his car made identical numbers to mine the second before the pipes were put on. Im shocked with the gain too.

Stinkin it up is a different story.
 
Just run race gas 110, 115 that sweet sweet smell of real octane. Also another + cats don't like leaded race fuel.
 
Test pipes will change your A/F ratio due to the change in exhaust flow. Not recommended unless you have tuning tools and are heading to a dyno shortly. You can take the risk that it will be okay, but I doubt you want to run the risk.

I run a 'high flow' cat just to avoid harassment from cops and to be environmentally decent, although it's at the expense of 30-40rwhp for me, I haev enough power already, I don't think I could get to work any faster :p
 
satan_srv said:
I run a 'high flow' cat just

I looked at high-flow cats, but was pretty much told it doesn't really do a whole lot and was probably not worth the money.
 
I to have been considering test pipes. However, one of my major concerns is the CEL light. If you remove the cats, does this mean you will have to drive around with the CEL light on all the time? If so, I think it would get quite annoying.
 
NetViper said:
I looked at high-flow cats, but was pretty much told it doesn't really do a whole lot and was probably not worth the money.

Mine came with it, I'm more against test pipes more for cops than anything else.
 
i have test pipes and an ark exhaust.:biggrin: ...loud yes:biggrin: ...women think its sexy :tongue: and guys drool when i drive by:cool:

CEL...NOT on my NA1...1991

Not a problem I occured anyway
 
I think the only viable threat that the addition of test pipes will introduce is the difference in the a/f ratio. I doubt it will be much, and nothing the ecu can't compensate for, but when you're talking about a $10K engine, you can never be too careful. If you're really concerned, do a dyno session.

The other risks you are taking are:
1. Getting caught by the cops
2. More pollution
3. Wear and tear on your engine as a result of more HP. (which is negligible but worth noting)
4. Possibly an unbearable exhaust note

As far as gains, I'm sure you'll see appreciable results. Any elimination of restriction on the exhaust side of an FI application is going to free up horsepower. I'd do it if I were you. It will be loud, though. :biggrin:
 
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NetViper said:
I looked at high-flow cats, but was pretty much told it doesn't really do a whole lot and was probably not worth the money.

Thats what I was told:wink:
 
I really hope you guys are kidding about high flow cats and test pipes harming the engine... Even if it pushes out more airflow, what do you think a performance exhaust is going to do? And, as far as it leaning out the car, i think you guys are all forgetting that all OBD1 and OBD2 ecus are going to self correct the mix based off the 02 readings after a couple of ignition cycles.

So stop worrying, put them on, enjoy the noise and be happy.
 
Finally, a reply with a clue. SO much misinformation here. No offense guys, but you aren’t doing anyone any favors unless you actually know something when you post. There’s plenty of misinformation and parroting of old myths on the web, this site aspires to be better. Where are the knowledgeable folks who hung out here in the past?

da3dalus pretty well covered it, but my favorite is that removing cats makes the exhaust stink (often said to be like rotten eggs). Defective cats stink, but removing the cats will not cause any odors. If anything, there will be less odor unless your car is running rich.
 
da3dalus said:
OBD1 and OBD2 ecus are going to self correct the mix based off the 02 readings after a couple of ignition cycles.

In open loop? I don't think so. Long term fuel trim etc is for closed loop only..unless i'm smoking crack open loop /WOT doesn't adjust
 
Many hundreds of thousands of miles, many track events, etc.. across many different vehicle platforms, and never so much as a hint of a problem, nor reports of damage from other enthusiasts so far as I am aware.

I think what this thread needs is a primer on O2 sensors and catalytic converters:

http://www.aa1car.com/library/o2sensor.htm
http://www.howstuffworks.com/catalytic-converter.htm

Note than on OBD1 NSXes their are only two O2 sensors, one per bank, and both are in fact positioned ahead of the factory catalytic converter on the header/manifold (primary).

On OBD2 NSXes, their are four- two per bank. One is again positioned ahead of the factory converter positioned on the header/manifold (primary) and one is just down stream of it just opposite the honeycomb (secondary).

On any OBD2 vehicle- the secondary sensor is their for but one reason- per Federal Law so that the ECU can verify that its reading is less than that of the primary sensor to assist with emissions check. Essentially, the ECU is looking at the relative difference in voltages, and if it is equivalent it can fire the check engine light to indicate an emission component malfunction- ironically usually a bad O2 sensor and in more rare cases a failed converter (not so much of an issue since leaded fuel went out of style). Note the stoichiometric point a/f calculation is a direct result of the oxygen reading from the primary sensor alone in most applications, as the oxygen reading is best taken as close to the engine as possible.

Once again, per many other threads on this topic- mitigating the secondary sensor reading via re-location or using an anti-fouler is all that is needed. On my last custom exhaust we put in a 1" diameter X 6" long L pipe which worked very well. Doing this will ensure that-

1) The secondary sensor on OBD2 vehicles reads less than the primary. This is neccessary to ensure that the annoying CEL light does not come on and more importantly the ECU does not revert to a fixed fuel map resulting in poorer performance/fuel ecconomy as is the case on some applications like the S2K. After clearing the ECU and running several cycles, a modern ECU will adjust to the new primary/secondary readings and likely be fine indefinitely.

2) The expensive O2 sensor does not get fouled over time (all applications).

In closing, as others have mentioned, their is a real difference between speculation and fact on any topic- so do include your sources when quoting. Some of the replies, and hp gains and dyno charts and car comparisons anymore are frankly getting comical- (e.g. like magic high boost test pipes of ever gain + 40rwhp). However, that is likely a different discussion for a different day. :wink:
 
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Great info John re: O2s and closed loop.

For most cars SC power, keeping everything else stock, boils down to where the ECU (maps) and fuel supply can no longer keep up with the incoming air.
http://www.stealth316.com/2-air-fuel-flow.htm

Run through the calculators. They indicate that 240cc/min injectors don't have much margin for airflow above stock, which would confirm the engineers didn't just randomly pull injectors out of a bin.

What I don't understand is how members are reporting such high numbers on stock ECU and FP. Not doubting the dyno charts of course, just wondering what factors come into play that don't show up in the textbook to make those numbers.
 
satan_srv said:
In open loop? I don't think so. Long term fuel trim etc is for closed loop only..unless i'm smoking crack open loop /WOT doesn't adjust

Then you are probably smoking crack. I don't have technical data on the NSX ECU to support this as FACT, but I'm confident that some trims are applied "universally". In fact, they are pretty useless if they do not. Closed loop is where it "learns" some things, but some of that must then be applied to the open-loop maps as well. Also, open/closed-loop is primarily the O2 sensor because they don't work at the rich AFR at full throttle, other things like temps and knock are monitored all the time and maps adjusted accordingly, both short and long-term trims. So lay off the crack. ;)
 
sjs said:
Then you are probably smoking crack. I don't have technical data on the NSX ECU to support this as FACT, but I'm confident that some trims are applied "universally". In fact, they are pretty useless if they do not. Closed loop is where it "learns" some things, but some of that must then be applied to the open-loop maps as well. Also, open/closed-loop is primarily the O2 sensor because they don't work at the rich AFR at full throttle, other things like temps and knock are monitored all the time and maps adjusted accordingly, both short and long-term trims. So lay off the crack. ;)

Yup. Fuel trims are applied universally because the ecu monitors in both open and closed loop modes.

Either way, have you ever heard of ANY car, let alone an NSX blowing thier engines because their test pipes let the car breathe too much air? I may not be the smartest guy on the earth, but i'm not stupid enough to belive those rumors.
 
sjs said:
Finally, a reply with a clue. SO much misinformation here. No offense guys, but you aren’t doing anyone any favors unless you actually know something when you post. There’s plenty of misinformation and parroting of old myths on the web, this site aspires to be better. Where are the knowledgeable folks who hung out here in the past?

da3dalus pretty well covered it, but my favorite is that removing cats makes the exhaust stink (often said to be like rotten eggs). Defective cats stink, but removing the cats will not cause any odors. If anything, there will be less odor unless your car is running rich.

I'll have to chime in a disagree completely with the causing no odors comment. On the last Tax Drive, I was following a car with no cats at a distance of about 10 cars. Inside my car, there was a strong odor of gas and it wasn't something you could ignore. If you were followed by law inforcement, there would be no way the smell would be missed by them.

Save the planet just a little and keep them on.
 
I have to agree with ANYTIME, any potential benefit of a test pipe isnt going to be big enough to deystroy the ozone. I run high flow cats on all of my cars instead of test pipes. There are gains to be had using high flows over standard cats, but there is no need to gain the additional 1.3hp and kill the ozone using test pipes.
 
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