Tein RA optional spring rate ?

Trond · 30 November 2002

Hi !

I'm in the process of ordering the Tein RA coilovers from Japan.

I have the Tein HA on my 96 3000GT, and think the standard spring rates are pretty hard (even though I haven't had a chance to test it for everyday use/track)

I know the std rates on the RA for the NSX is 10 front and 12 rear.

To get a suspension more suitable for street AND track use, I consider going by spring rates 8 front and 10 rear.

Those of you with Tein and other coilovers, please advise

Thanks !

Trond.

Ponyboy · 30 November 2002

Is it just me or would the Tein spring rates promote oversteer? 10 in the front and 12 rear would induce a fair amount of oversteer, no? Unless the shocks were tuned to counter it. . .but why do that?

Hmmmm. . .

NSXGOD · 30 November 2002

Originally posted by Ponyboy:
Is it just me or would the Tein spring rates promote oversteer? 10 in the front and 12 rear would induce a fair amount of oversteer, no? Unless the shocks were tuned to counter it. . .but why do that?
Hmmmm. . .

How are the OEM springs "tuned"? the Eibach? the H&R or Intrax? How about the other coil over kits from the HKS & JIC? - they are all "tuned" to hold up the weight of the car and the rates selected reflect the rear weight BIAS in the NSX.

You are free to change that balance if it suits the way you drive. TEINS can be ordered in any spring rate combination that is offered, but they need to be set up from Japan if you do so - their USA office does not currently have the capability to do that in house.

------------------
need more info? please private me @

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Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.

ScienceofSpeed · 1 December 2002

The rates we are promoting are 12kg/mm F&R for track and 10kg/mm F&R for street.

I currently run 10kg/mm F&R. After many track events and testing, I found the setup from TEIN to be too over-steer biased. The handling now is very ideal for my driving preference.

We will soon be offering both setups in stock w/o special ordering required.

Regards,
-- Chris

------------------
Revolutionize your NSX with ScienceofSpeed
www.ScienceofSpeed.com | [email protected] | 877-863-4520

sjs · 1 December 2002

I bought a car with the REs already installed but don't know which springs are on them. Are they marked such that I can tell by looking at them on the car? If not, would someone mind measuring the wire diameter of 10s & 12s so I can figure it out? Then I can order what I don't have and play around with the options.

Thanks!

NSXGOD · 1 December 2002

Originally posted by sjs:
I bought a car with the REs already installed but don't know which springs are on them. Are they marked such that I can tell by looking at them on the car? If not, would someone mind measuring the wire diameter of 10s & 12s so I can figure it out? Then I can order what I don't have and play around with the options.
Thanks!

The RA/RE shocks can't be used with all of the springs that are available interchangeably - they work best with the ones the ones that they are shipped valved for. TEIN says that you can go + or - 1 rate each way before having to re valve the shock, AND that is not the ideal way to run them.

I like the way they are from the factory, and that is how there were set up when my pal in Germany pulled the 8:01 lap at Nürburgring - remember that he went 6 seconds faster than the 2002 NSX Type-R. I was a passenger in the car for ~ a 9:00 min lap as I wanted to come one in one piece. I also went for a leisurely run down the Autobahn at 315kph (indicated) on the way back - I didn't feel the car oversteer at all in either situation.

Everyones definition of what constitutes over/understeer is different.

------------------
need more info? please private me @

[email protected]

Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.

Trond · 1 December 2002

Thanks for the info Chris and Mark

I currently use the Comptech springs (with Bilstein shocks), and I like the over/understeer caracteristics of the car as it is now.

Anyone know the spring rates on these springs ? (I remember the springs were marked, but can't remember the numbers...)

Would be interesting to know the difference in front & rear rates

Trond.

NSXGOD · 3 December 2002

Originally posted by Trond:
Thanks for the info Chris and Mark

I currently use the Comptech springs (with Bilstein shocks), and I like the over/understeer caracteristics of the car as it is now.

Then order the TEINs as they are shipped normally with the spring rate higher in the rear.

Anyone know the spring rates on these springs ? (I remember the springs were marked, but can't remember the numbers...)

Would be interesting to know the difference in front & rear rates

Trond.

ask Bob:
[email protected]

------------------
need more info? please private me @

[email protected]

Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.

[This message has been edited by NSXGOD (edited 03 December 2002).]

[This message has been edited by NSXGOD (edited 03 December 2002).]

MvM · 3 December 2002

Hi mark (& DW of course)

Do I understand things correctly that a heavier spring-rate in the rear will make the NSX more prone to oversteer. I thought that with the adjustment properties of the TEIN you could change this at will??

Please enlighten me...

NSXGOD · 5 December 2002

Originally posted by MvM:
Hi mark (& DW of course)

Do I understand things correctly that a heavier spring-rate in the rear will make the NSX more prone to oversteer. I thought that with the adjustment properties of the TEIN you could change this at will??

Please enlighten me...

Hmm, lets see - the OEM springs rates are also stiffer (or "heavier") in the rear, and does the stock NSX exhibt oversteer? I think the general consensus is that it does NOT, as all the road tests of the NSX I've read (including the Zanardi version) all mention that they wish it didn't understeer as much.

You can adjust the compression/rebound valving (the TEIN uses an all in one adjuster) within a certain range to tune the feel of the car, but so what? that does not change the basic balance of the spring rate vs the weight distribution of the NSX. (where you are starting from) The knob adjustment has too small a range to do that - it is for tuning the car to your individual style/tires etc.

------------------
need more info? please private me @

[email protected]

Mark Johnson, CEO of Custodial Services @ Dali Racing, a Not For Profit Company.

Andrie Hartanto · 5 December 2002

Me personally don't like the characteristics of Tein with 12kg/mm/10kg/mm, Front/Rear respectively. I think it is way too much oversteer. Again, that's just My humble opinion.

According to: http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Performance/suspension.htm

All the high performance NSXs like type S, type R and so forth, all of them using stiffer spring on the front. The 2002 type R also uses stiffer springs on the front. (10/8, front/rear).

andreas · 5 December 2002

Hmm, lets see - the OEM springs rates are also stiffer (or "heavier") in the rear, and does the stock NSX exhibt oversteer? I think the general consensus is that it does NOT, as all the road tests of the NSX I've read (including the Zanardi version) all mention that they wish it didn't understeer as much.

stiffer rear spring rates in theory indicate oversteer. my understanding is that the nsx in stock form understeers because in front the springs are not stiff enough to prevent contact with the bump stops. as the long rubber bump stop compresses, the effective spring rate goes up a lot. this does not happen in the rear, so during heavy cornering the effective front spring rate actually becomes much higher than the rear's (opposite to the static balance).

now the zanardi/type s suspensions are different in that the front springs are stiffer than the rears, which i believe was done in an effort to keep the car off the bump stops. apparently the front spring rates are still not high enough to achieve that, since the zanardi reviews note understeer as mark points out. the original type r had even stiffer front springs, perhaps stiff enough, but i don't care as 8 kg/mm (over 400 lbs/") is well past my tolerance level for ride discomfort.

sjs · 6 December 2002

Someone may want to check me on this, but I think that some of the other models also changed anti-roll bar specs, so looking at spring rates alone may be deceptive.

Andrie, I had heard that someone with mucho track experience and respected as a good driver felt that the typical Tien setup was too tail happy. Perhaps that was you. What sway bars are you running?

I'd still like to know how to identify which springs I have.

Andrie Hartanto · 6 December 2002

Hi Steve,

This is the summary of test result with Tein setup.

Day 1.

Car: 1992 NSX
Sway bar: Dali race/street (middle size) bar. Set at, 2nd hole from full stiff up front, and 2nd hole from full soft in the rear.
Tire size: 215/16 front, 245/17 rear. Street tires.
Result: excessive oversteer. Move the rear bar to full soft with no apparent effect.

Day 2:
Thought mine f@cked up, went to ask a friend with Tein to test his car.
Car: 1997 NSX-T
Sway bar: stock.
Tire size: 215/17 front, 275/18 rear. Street tires
Result: Way too much oversteer that the car has to be driven rally style and way slow. Telly Chang (*) tested the car and concur.

Day 3:
Car: 1992 NSX
Sway bar: stock up front, no bar in the rear.
Tires: R compound 245/16 front, 275/17 rear.
Result: Still excessive oversteer. In fact, I was known that day as the drift king

On a same day, took a 1996 NSX-T with Comptech pro suspension, and was blown away on how good they are. Had to purchase it on the way home

Heck, I think they are worth every penny. After testing their brakes, and their suspension, I am sold on Comptech products. They maybe expensive, but they are worth every penny. Would have saved me lots of money to go with their product in the first place.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with comptech, and has no financial interest. Unless they are interested in sponsoring me for my OTC entry

I am sure the springs are marked. Will get back to you on that. I'm helping a friend install his Tein and change the spring on the rear to softer ones.

(*) Telly Chang is a fellow NSXer, very good driver. He got 3rd place in OTC Touring 4, with a pretty much stock Miata, beating a Turbo Miata, and beat the 1st and 2nd place cars that has lots more HP on some of the tracks.

Trond · 6 December 2002

I have ordered the 10/10 kg/mm springs for the Tein RA set up.

I'm currently using Comptech sway bars on full stiff up front and full soft rear.

I will have this suspension installed right after new years, and I will report back how the car performs in my point of view.

Thanks for the input !

Trond.

maomaonsx · 7 December 2002

10/10 is what I would use on the TEIN, it still oversteers. I'm trying a NSX-R front sway bar with NSX-S rear bar next, let's see if it's any better.

------------------
George W
Porsche 996 for sale!

sjs · 7 December 2002

Wow, some dramatically different views here from people who know a thing or two about driving. Thanks everyone for the input. What little I've driven them was on the street and it felt decidedly loose, but at the time I attributed that to crappy tires. I guess I'll order new tires now rather than waiting till spring so I can try sorting it out if we have any warm days.

Anyone else have a positive experience with them?

Andrie Hartanto · 28 December 2002

Sorry for the late response. I almost forgot about this. Anyway, I helped a friend changed to Tein and the writing is on top of the pring. On the flat top where it lay on the pillow ball mount. So to see it you would need to disassemble the kit.

ScienceofSpeed · 28 December 2002

There is also a model number on the face of the coil that you can also reference with TEIN.

Cheers,
-- Chris

------------------
Revolutionize your NSX with ScienceofSpeed
www.ScienceofSpeed.com | [email protected] | 877-863-4520

KooLaid · 27 May 2007

Andrie Hartanto said:
Hi Steve,

This is the summary of test result with Tein setup.

Day 1.

Car: 1992 NSX
Sway bar: Dali race/street (middle size) bar. Set at, 2nd hole from full stiff up front, and 2nd hole from full soft in the rear.
Tire size: 215/16 front, 245/17 rear. Street tires.
Result: excessive oversteer. Move the rear bar to full soft with no apparent effect.

Day 2:
Thought mine f@cked up, went to ask a friend with Tein to test his car.
Car: 1997 NSX-T
Sway bar: stock.
Tire size: 215/17 front, 275/18 rear. Street tires
Result: Way too much oversteer that the car has to be driven rally style and way slow. Telly Chang (*) tested the car and concur.

Day 3:
Car: 1992 NSX
Sway bar: stock up front, no bar in the rear.
Tires: R compound 245/16 front, 275/17 rear.
Result: Still excessive oversteer. In fact, I was known that day as the drift king

On a same day, took a 1996 NSX-T with Comptech pro suspension, and was blown away on how good they are. Had to purchase it on the way home

Heck, I think they are worth every penny. After testing their brakes, and their suspension, I am sold on Comptech products. They maybe expensive, but they are worth every penny. Would have saved me lots of money to go with their product in the first place.

Disclaimer: I am not affiliated with comptech, and has no financial interest. Unless they are interested in sponsoring me for my OTC entry

I am sure the springs are marked. Will get back to you on that. I'm helping a friend install his Tein and change the spring on the rear to softer ones.

(*) Telly Chang is a fellow NSXer, very good driver. He got 3rd place in OTC Touring 4, with a pretty much stock Miata, beating a Turbo Miata, and beat the 1st and 2nd place cars that has lots more HP on some of the tracks.

Resurrecting an OLD post:

What front and rear spring rates were you running in this test? You mention earlier,

" Me personally don't like the characteristics of Tein with 12kg/mm/10kg/mm, Front/Rear respectively. I think it is way too much oversteer. Again, that's just My humble opinion."

I assume maybe you typed it in reverse order? Or did you change them around to 12 front/10 rear?

All I know is my tein re setup is the 10/12 w/ Type R front swaybar. I swapped coilovers and sway at the same time. It pushes and understeers HORRIBLY. It's not my tires either because I'm running the same wheels/tires when I ran on stock suspension/sways and the car handled GREAT w/ just a little bit of understeer. Now the fronts are just 50% worn and the rears are down to the bars, but the car still is NOT tail happy the least bit.

is it possible that by adding the type R front bar alone, it induced huge push and understeer into my 93?

I was going to order either the dali street or street/race rear sway but noticed for the price I could completely swap my springs over to 6/8 (it rides pretty rough for me right now). Then Mark mentioned earlier in this thread that I'd have to get the teins revalved to make that significant of a change.

All I know is what I wanted was happy with stock suspension ride but wanted to lower it 3/4" (added tein re) and get flatter steering (added type r front sway). Maybe the tein re was the wrong route for me?

asylum · 28 May 2007

I have the Tein Flex with the common 10/12 kg springs and I don't feel my car having oversteer at the track except in excess of gas out of a curve. Otherwise it is pretty neutral.

I have stock sway bars, Type R front chassis bars, camber -2°/-3°, caster -9°, toe -2mm/+3mm each side.

Andrie Hartanto · 29 May 2007

KooLaid said:
Resurrecting an OLD post:

What front and rear spring rates were you running in this test? You mention earlier,

" Me personally don't like the characteristics of Tein with 12kg/mm/10kg/mm, Front/Rear respectively. I think it is way too much oversteer. Again, that's just My humble opinion."

I assume maybe you typed it in reverse order? Or did you change them around to 12 front/10 rear?

You are right, I mis-spoke, Shoul have been the other way around

All I know is my tein re setup is the 10/12 w/ Type R front swaybar. I swapped coilovers and sway at the same time. It pushes and understeers HORRIBLY. It's not my tires either because I'm running the same wheels/tires when I ran on stock suspension/sways and the car handled GREAT w/ just a little bit of understeer. Now the fronts are just 50% worn and the rears are down to the bars, but the car still is NOT tail happy the least bit.

is it possible that by adding the type R front bar alone, it induced huge push and understeer into my 93?

I was going to order either the dali street or street/race rear sway but noticed for the price I could completely swap my springs over to 6/8 (it rides pretty rough for me right now). Then Mark mentioned earlier in this thread that I'd have to get the teins revalved to make that significant of a change.

All I know is what I wanted was happy with stock suspension ride but wanted to lower it 3/4" (added tein re) and get flatter steering (added type r front sway). Maybe the tein re was the wrong route for me?

I must also add, that lots of this handling mambo jumbo talk only happens at the limit. I tested them on the track and driving at the limit.

Sure driving style might affect it a little, but not by much.

in most cases for people with limited experience (i.e. not fast) this might not apply. I understand everyone thinks they are Ayrton Senna, but in reality, less than 10% can even explore the car or have enough understanding on the car to qualify in saying the car understeer or oversteer.

Any car can be driver induced oversteer or understeer.

Tein RA optional spring rate ?

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