Targa Triangle brace

[BATMANs]

I've got the STMPO RSTB for the coupe.

I did have to drill and Zerk (sp?) fit the firewall bolts.

I really liked the powder coated looks and can feel a difference in the stiffness.

[/QUOTE]

 

[BTL3.0]

Nice. How much did u pay?

 

[RYU]

I do believe a triangulated strut brace for the coupe is beneficial. It is probably of marginal benefit, if anything, if you don't track your car. FWIW i'm with greenberet on this one. While it's sensible to think that stiffer isn't necessarily always better, in this case the triangle brace makes sense - keep the stock towers stiff so the suspension can do it's job as accurately as possible. Honda had a price/cost constraint to keep the NSX costs low and competitive. The business case is a tough hurdle to get over which is why I feel the NSX wasn't designed as best as it could have but it's the best we could get for the money. In many respects i'm sure we can all agree that the NSX was better than expected for maybe 70% of the buyers out there which makes for a business case win in my book! I think we on Prime account for perhaps the remaining 30% who push beyond the limits.

With that said... a lot of smart people like you guys have found great ways to improve the platform and a lot of not so smart guys have found ways to mess it up even though their ideas might seems logical from several years of bench racing via keyboard <-- i'm guilty of this too! :biggrin:

I recently finished my own prototype triangle brace for the coupe because the one I do like isn't being sold anymore and the other simply doesn't make sense for my small brain (i.e. these braces prohibit front-to-rear frame compression but does nothing for upper shock tower torsional twisting)

 

[RYU]

I've got the STMPO RSTB for the coupe.

I did have to drill and Zerk (sp?) fit the firewall bolts.

I really liked the powder coated looks and can feel a difference in the stiffness.

Bats, how thick was the firewall there? It's dual wall right? You went thru into the passenger cabin I presume.

I inspected briefly a targa shell vs a coupe.. it does appear the targa has extra reinforcement the coupe does not have in that area which leads me to believe the coupe is thinner there. Hoping it's not enough to matter because I like where yours is mounted.

 

[BATMANs]

Bats, how thick was the firewall there? It's dual wall right? You went thru into the passenger cabin I presume.

I inspected briefly a targa shell vs a coupe.. it does appear the targa has extra reinforcement the coupe does not have in that area which leads me to believe the coupe is thinner there. Hoping it's not enough to matter because I like where yours is mounted.

Ross, did the work. It's double walled so no it didn't go into the cabin.

And, just to clarify, it was blind threaded rivets that he used.

http://www.google.com/search?um=1&h...pl=26234l26963l0l6l6l0l0l0l4l279l1047l0.3.2l5

 

[nigel]

greenberet; If you go to NSXCB and find KAZ you could do just what you suggest in your post #18.
Introduce yourself and tell him I told you to make your inquiries with him.
Be ready for some unreal documentation and info.

Cheers
nigel

 

[BATMANs]

Nice. How much did u pay?

I forgot to be honest since I had custom exhaust work and ducts done at the same time.

Perhaps Ross can chime in here.

 

[LJSB]

FWIW i'm with greenberet on this one. While it's sensible to think that stiffer isn't necessarily always better, in this case the triangle brace makes sense - keep the stock towers stiff so the suspension can do it's job as accurately as possible.

Please, go under your car and see where and how the rear suspension is mounted and how it works. You have upper and lower control arms and a knuckle mounted to each other and to the subframe sections, ultimately bolted to the side members not the shock towers.

I recently finished my own prototype triangle brace for the coupe because the one I do like isn't being sold anymore and the other simply doesn't make sense for my small brain (i.e. these braces prohibit front-to-rear frame compression but does nothing for upper shock tower torsional twisting)

The side members experience front to rear compression? This is put in check by the triagle on top? No. Uh uh, but it sure sounds cool.

 

[HONDA_RJJ]

If you didn't have to have a triangle or have to clear a Super Charger, the normal works well and is pretty easy to install.

 

[RYU]

Please, go under your car and see where and how the rear suspension is mounted and how it works. You have upper and lower control arms and a knuckle mounted to each other and to the subframe sections, ultimately bolted to the side members not the shock towers.



The side members experience front to rear compression? This is put in check by the triagle on top? No. Uh uh, but it sure sounds cool.

Ah yes. I forget you are the all knowing. Let me remind myself to ask you next time I do anything on my car.

 

[greenberet]

Please, go under your car and see where and how the rear suspension is mounted and how it works. You have upper and lower control arms and a knuckle mounted to each other and to the subframe sections, ultimately bolted to the side members not the shock towers.

The rear suspension is composed of more than two control arms and a hub carrier per side. There are also springs and dampers that compress when driving through a turn or over a bump. When the springs and dampers compress, they push harder against the shock towers. To prevent the shock towers from moving relative to each other, Honda installed a brace between the two on the coupe. To prevent that and to suppress chassis twisting, Honda mounted a triangulated brace on the NSX-T that also attaches to the upper cross member of the rear bulkhead. Because the shock towers do have a tendency to move and that is undesirable, Honda installed a rear shock tower brace on all NSXs.

The side members experience front to rear compression? This is put in check by the triagle on top? No. Uh uh, but it sure sounds cool.

RYU stated that braces that look like they should prevent front-to-rear frame compression (bending) but not torsional twisting don’t make sense to him. If I got the gist of your statement, it sounds like you agree with him.

 

[LJSB]

The rear suspension is composed of more than two control arms and a hub carrier per side. There are also springs and dampers that compress when driving through a turn or over a bump. When the springs and dampers compress, they push harder against the shock towers. To prevent the shock towers from moving relative to each other, Honda installed a brace between the two on the coupe. To prevent that and to suppress chassis twisting, Honda mounted a triangulated brace on the NSX-T that also attach's to the upper cross member of the rear bulkhead. Because the shock towers do have a tendency to move and that is undesirable, Honda installed a rear shock tower brace on all NSXs.



RYU stated that braces that look like they should prevent front-to-rear frame compression (bending) but not torsional twisting don’t make sense to him. If I got the gist of your statement, it sounds like you agree with him.

I'm not trying to be smart but it is good to see you understand the role of the springs and shocks in the suspension. Now please take note when the shock is mounted it is not static that's why there are rubber bushings on both ends.You can put an I-Beam from tower to tower and they will still move,flex, they're supposed to. This intended movement of the shock shock does not effect the suspension geometry and actually assists the shock to do what it does.

At the mention of sidemember compression I assumed Ryu was implying linear not lateral as you are suggesting but again I can't see how this triangle is going to contain that. I think you are grasping at straws on that.

Ah yes. I forget you are the all knowing. Let me remind myself to ask you next time I do anything on my car.

PUT THE BAR ON IF YOU WANT. It will stiffen up what it is attached to and if you can convince yourself you feel a difference, a positive improvement on the way to "cars and coffee" all the better.
If you were in my area I'd be glad to help you put it on.:smile:


The one on Batmans car looks mean. I like!

 

[RYU]

PUT THE BAR ON IF YOU WANT. It will stiffen up what it is attached to and if you can convince yourself you feel a difference, a positive improvement on the way to "cars and coffee" all the better.
If you were in my area I'd be glad to help you put it on.:smile:


The one on Batmans car looks mean. I like!

I'll believe what i'll believe and so will you. We can agree to disagree to disagree as they say. There are a lot of arguments/analysis made my people I respect on this forum but you're not one of them. Otherwise, I might concede to your argument. Though I hear you're a decent auto body painter. Been sniffing too much paint lately? Just kidding.. but wondering why you've got your panties in a bunch. We've also never met so I find the remark about drives to Cars & Coffee quite amusing.

 

[greenberet]

You can put an I-Beam from tower to tower and they will still move,flex, they're supposed to. This intended movement of the shock shock does not effect the suspension geometry and actually assists the shock to do what it does.

So you believe that it's good if the chassis’ rear shock towers flex and move around? If I understood that correctly, we have a quite different view of the matter.

At the mention of sidemember compression I assumed Ryu was implying linear not lateral as you are suggesting but again I can't see how this triangle is going to contain that.

Picture a shoebox without a lid. You can twist it very easily because the top is missing. If you glue in a cardboard brace from the middle of one side to the middle of the opposite side, those two sides won't be able to flex much in relation to one another but the box is still going to be relatively easy to twist. However, if you put a brace from one corner of the shoebox to the opposite corner, triangulating it, it will be much harder to twist. I find that helps visualize the point of triangulation but don't tell me this is the first time you've heard the shoebox analogy!

 

[LJSB]

I'll believe what i'll believe and so will you. We can agree to disagree to disagree as they say. There are a lot of arguments/analysis made my people I respect on this forum but you're not one of them.

Nuff' said.

This has been a waste of my time as well.

 

[BATMANs]

........The one on Batmans car looks mean. I like!

of course. I make my cars look mean.....

*must resist putting the same photos of my NSX, RX7 and GTO in yet another thread*

*must resist*

 

[BATMANs]

Will you be able to tell the difference in your NSX after it's been STMPOized? Only if you are breathing when you return from your test ride!

Medical Warning: People with high blood pressure and heart conditions should use STMPO parts with extreme caution. STMPOized NSXs have been know to result in extreme SEGs. If your SEG persists for more than 4 hours consult a doctor immediately. Severely dilated pupils may result from the adrenaline rush on your first drive of a STMPOized NSX. These medical side effects are not ephemeral and will last for years.

 

[greenberet]

Last edited by pbassjo; 06-28-2011 at 19:42. Reason: Bold highlights so that they will read and think and not just say NO

I just saw your edit and fully agree that it’s good to have rubber bushings at the ends of dampers.

And I also agree that we’ve said enough regarding the pros and cons of increasing an NSX’s chassis stiffness.

 

[RYU]

Nuff' said.

This has been a waste of my time as well.

Yea, no hard feelings on my end. I'll still gladly by you a beer if we ever did meet.

Unfortunately, I think w/o any real track testing, an FEA study, or at least talking to the engineers... it's still an somewhat educated guess on my part. I can only read so many books and I don't have that kind of money to burn to pay for an FEA/engineer. I will be track testing though and will do my best to calibrate my butt dyno before the event.

 

[docjohn]

For those who don't know, pbassjo is not your average "body shop" owner.He truely is an intelectual multi talented fellow,who happens to also be a long time nsx owner/enthusiast who also has traveled all over this country as well as europe and Japan speaking directly to the engineers who built our cars.He is better able to absorb thier knowledge because he knows how cars are built particularly the nsx.Joe dos'nt need my "defending" him but I just could not let any member here call him just a painter and let it go.I defer to him when discussing anything body/paint related.

 

[SFNSXguy]

for those who don't know, pbassjo is not your average "body shop" owner.he truely is an intelectual multi talented fellow,who happens to also be a long time nsx owner/enthusiast who also has traveled all over this country as well as europe and japan speaking directly to the engineers who built our cars.he is better able to absorb thier knowledge because he knows how cars are built particularly the nsx.joe dos'nt need my "defending" him but i just could not let any member here call him just a painter and let it go.i defer to him when discussing anything body/paint related.

+1 !

 

[Russ]

For those who don't know, pbassjo is not your average "body shop" owner.He truely is an intelectual multi talented fellow,who happens to also be a long time nsx owner/enthusiast who also has traveled all over this country as well as europe and Japan speaking directly to the engineers who built our cars.He is better able to absorb thier knowledge because he knows how cars are built particularly the nsx.Joe dos'nt need my "defending" him but I just could not let any member here call him just a painter and let it go.I defer to him when discussing anything body/paint related.

I hear he plays a mean bass guitar, too.

 

[RYU]

I hear he plays a mean bass guitar, too.

I gotta hear this! I love the bass

 

[SFNSXguy]

I gotta hear this! I love the bass

You probably have... on some of your favorite studio recordings!

 

[greenberet]

A reputable source of NSX knowledge shed some light on the matter.

When designing the NSX-T, the roof was cut off a coupe and a chassis reinforcement study was carried out. In the end, over 50 points of the chassis were reinforced and changes were made to parts of the internal aluminum structure. Some of those reinforcements were then built into the NSX coupes as well, making the chassis of later coupes more rigid than those of earlier coupes. It was found that the NSX-T’s triangulated rear strut tower brace was not required on those later coupes.

Regardless how rigid you make the chassis of a car, it’s going to flex a bit. When you change how much it flexes, you will also change its resonant frequency. The new resonant frequency may lead to an increase in perceived noise, vibration, or harshness (NVH). Kind of like sitting inside a drum instead of inside a bean bag. Additionally, that new resonant frequency could potentially induce an unwanted vertical vibration in the chassis that negatively impacts the tires’ contact patches with the road.

To determine whether those negative side effects crop up or not, you have to carry out tests. Some people who installed 2002+ NSX-R front chassis braces in a regular NSX removed them again because they didn’t like how they impacted the car’s feel. Other people prefer the feel of the car with those front chassis braces in place. It may be a similar matter installing a triangulated rear strut tower brace in an early coupe.

If you find that increasing your NSX’s chassis rigidity negatively impacts some aspect of NVH or roadholding, you could unbolt the chassis reinforcements again. If you have access to development facilities, you could try to dampen the new resonant frequency instead with something like Yamaha’s Performance Damper. Increasingly, car manufacturers like Toyota are not only trying to build rigid chassis but also to dampen chassis resonances to further improve “driving stability and riding comfort”. That way the car can be as tight as a drum while having almost as few resonances as a bean bag.

I haven’t heard of a Yamaha Performance Damper having been developed for the rear of an NSX’s chassis. Since I like the way the NSX-R front chassis braces changed the feel of my NSX, I may try installing a triangulated rear strut tower brace in my early coupe as well and hope it has a similar effect.