PS: You're really not going to find anyone here to help talk you out of buying a nice sports car...either one.
You'll have to visit the Prius forums for that.
^Great post!:biggrin:
talk me off the Ferrari ledge......
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^Great post!:biggrin:
Average life expectancy of a NSX vs. Ferrari is tantamount to the people.
To the OP,
Allow me to post my opinion. I have owned four 308-based in my F life; a 79 carbed 308GTS, an 84 QV GTS, an 85 288GTO and an 86 328GTS. Apart from the 288 which was a handful to own and drive, the only 308 that left a semblance of a good taste in my mouth was the 328. Yet, all were badly built, unreliable (always in awkward situations) and most of all underpowered. I remember putting the 79 car one of the rare dynos that existed in 1981 and finding out the advertized 210 axle HP fizzle down to 108 RWHP.
If you must show off with a prancing horse, for a little more money than a 328, you can (please ignore the 348) go for a 355 with good records . But IMO, even at this level, the NSX is a way better purchase. Just my 2c.
Allow me to post my opinion. I have owned four 308-based in my F life; a 79 carbed 308GTS, an 84 QV GTS, an 85 288GTO and an 86 328GTS. Apart from the 288 which was a handful to own and drive, the only 308 that left a semblance of a good taste in my mouth was the 328. Yet, all were badly built, unreliable (always in awkward situations) and most of all underpowered. I remember putting the 79 car one of the rare dynos that existed in 1981 and finding out the advertized 210 axle HP fizzle down to 108 RWHP.
If you must show off with a prancing horse, for a little more money than a 328, you can (please ignore the 348) go for a 355 with good records . But IMO, even at this level, the NSX is a way better purchase. Just my 2c.
This is pretty much the long and the short of it for Ferrari ownership. The company builds inferior machines, and has for decades. For some reason owners keep going back due to the "Ferrari mythos", but really, the parts are under engineered (owners call it "exotic"), the cars are relatively slow (but "sound heavenly") and many of them, including the 308, aren't even very fun to drive. There's a reason used Ferrari's basically never have more then 20k miles while used NSXs routinely approach 100k - Ferrari's are not built to last and owners are in perpetual denial about it.
The 308 is not a bad option to get Ferrari ownership out of your system, but my advice is don't stick around too long. The 10-20k service which will be required just to keep the car running is going to happen sooner or later.
Put me behind the wheel
:biggrin:I loved the 308's back in the day. Like they say a little dated looking now. Honda's NSX made Ferrari step up their game.
I've never driven a Ferrari. I did sit in a 308 and was disappointed. Maybe it was my size.. I'm 6'1" I felt cramped. I know Tom Selleck (6' 3.5") always drove with the top off. I believe he had too.
The best advise would be to drive both...
My guess is the NSX or a newer F car. It is still cool to go retro and cruise in a classic. And as it was mentioned people know Ferrari and especially the 308. Then again, many people mistake the NSX as a Ferrari.
It depends on what a person is looking to get out of a car.
what about newer ferraris like the 360,are they built better and how much does a major service cost and how often do you have to do it?
I love Ferraris and owned an '85 308QV for about 3-4 years. While it was nowhere near as fast, comfortable or reliable as my NSX, I did love to drive the car , when it was running right. This car was a pristine, showroom quality car which was babied and meticulously cared for and it only had 30k miles on it when I bought it. In spite of all this, I ran into constant electrical problems and leaks of all sorts. In the course of my ownership, I had to have it towed 3 times--the last time ( and the last straw) was midnight in Montreal on F-1 weekend. While I like to work on my cars, I got tired of constantly having to work on it, change plugs/extenders on the highway,and always wonderi if I'd break-down on any given trip I took. By the time I sold it, I felt like I had spent as much time under the car as in it and decided to give a try to an NSX for a spell and then go back to another Ferrari. Well, 5 years later--I still have the NSX and no longer plan on going back.
Cost of parts and maintenance was also just plain stupid. The parts were, by and large, not of great quality and the 30k/ 3-year maintenance cost ( 6 years ago) was $4,000--assuming that nothing was wrong with the car!
Re: the different 308 models, the '83--'85 QV's are the most comfortable, fastest and most reliable. The '80--'82's are 2-valve injected models and are very slow and underpowered--and are the cheapest on the market. The carbed models are fun, but not as comfortable or reliable in general. Unless you let these models warm up for 20 minutes or so--even if you are going to move it across your garage--you risk plug fouling/glazing, due to massive amounts of fuel being fed into a 3.0 liter engine by 4 Webers.
Anyway--I don't mean bash Ferraris as I still love the style, sound, and history. If you're a mechanic, don't take long trips, and love to tinker constantly, go for it. But, if you want a reliable driving machine, the NSX is head and shoulders above Ferrari--especially the older ones ( I can't comment on the newer ones due to no experience with them).
I know Ferrari owners who would rail about my assessment. However, I've met very few who really drive their cars. Of course , if one puts 200 miles a year on a car, you probably won't have much trouble, if you still carry out the ridiculous service schedule and chage belts every 3 years.
One more note about milage: When I was looking for my 308, I saw and test drove a number of cars of various years ( 1977--85)--and, miraculously, not one had more than 30--35k miles on it. I don't believe for one second that this was the real milage on most of them. It's a 2-minute job to dc the speedometer on 308's and I'd bet my retirement fund that most were altered.
Cost of parts and maintenance was also just plain stupid. The parts were, by and large, not of great quality and the 30k/ 3-year maintenance cost ( 6 years ago) was $4,000--assuming that nothing was wrong with the car!
Re: the different 308 models, the '83--'85 QV's are the most comfortable, fastest and most reliable. The '80--'82's are 2-valve injected models and are very slow and underpowered--and are the cheapest on the market. The carbed models are fun, but not as comfortable or reliable in general. Unless you let these models warm up for 20 minutes or so--even if you are going to move it across your garage--you risk plug fouling/glazing, due to massive amounts of fuel being fed into a 3.0 liter engine by 4 Webers.
Anyway--I don't mean bash Ferraris as I still love the style, sound, and history. If you're a mechanic, don't take long trips, and love to tinker constantly, go for it. But, if you want a reliable driving machine, the NSX is head and shoulders above Ferrari--especially the older ones ( I can't comment on the newer ones due to no experience with them).
I know Ferrari owners who would rail about my assessment. However, I've met very few who really drive their cars. Of course , if one puts 200 miles a year on a car, you probably won't have much trouble, if you still carry out the ridiculous service schedule and chage belts every 3 years.
One more note about milage: When I was looking for my 308, I saw and test drove a number of cars of various years ( 1977--85)--and, miraculously, not one had more than 30--35k miles on it. I don't believe for one second that this was the real milage on most of them. It's a 2-minute job to dc the speedometer on 308's and I'd bet my retirement fund that most were altered.
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Good question. In fact I do disagree with NSXcoupe. Things DID change over the years. I have been to the F factory 4 times and have seen drastic improvements from the cute hand assembly lines with bicycles and prociutto sandwiches on the work bench to a very modern setup with state of the art cnc machines, automation, skylights and exotic plants. The foundry is still there in a dark corner of the plant but the assembly line is automated and QC is for ever present. I spent a full hour watching an assembly crew of 8 guys work on an Enzo back in 2002 and compared it to an F1 crew working in an F1 track garage. Very impressive. The problem with F is that they still use inferior components, flimsy parts and a lose italian-only way of attaching things together. That causes a lot of problems.
That being said, I owned a 360 for 5 years and can safely say it was well ahead of the 308/328/348/355 standards. but it is still deficient (when compared to a contemporary NSX) and relatively expensive to maintain especially for an engine-out timing belt replacement.
I did visit the Toshigi plant in 98 and observed much higher standards than my Maranello visit at the time. I owned my 2nd NSX at the time I had the 360. Took both frequently to the track and put both on my lift for close comparison. NSX wins IMO. My 2c again.
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From the 355 to the 360, it was the first transition where I really think Ferrari made an effort to improve the ownership experience. The interior is much better and the major service can be performed without an engine out. The F430 went a step further by using chains instead of belts.
With all that said, do not get the wrong idea about costs of ownership. These cars are the type of cars you need to have 20k set aside just in case something goes wrong, and given enough time, something WILL go wrong. That's the different between the NSX ownership experience vs. the Ferrari one.
And for those of you looking at 360s right now because they are relatively cheap, always remember these types of cars are cheap for a reason. Firstly, try finding one that has been driving more then 20k miles. Secondly, compare the maintenance records and costs of those <20k miles ownership histories. More often then not, you will see 10k here 10k there, and it really adds up. All on a car which has been driven less then 20k miles. 360s are "better" then most Ferraris, but as time goes on, the weaknesses of the design, components, parts, and drivetrain are all exposed one by one in gigantic service repair bills all in cars with less then 20k miles.
I believe it all stems from the company culture at Ferrari. They traditionally never respected the road car buyers and for decades have chosen to use inferior parts and ignore/refuse to fix obvious issues. Just look at the recent 458 recall to see how long they took to respond.
Ferrari is getting better, but 360 is not the leap forward you might think. From looking at the California and FF, I think they are on the right track, but personally, I am waiting for Ferrari to prove itself before I dip my toes back into those waters.
With all that said, do not get the wrong idea about costs of ownership. These cars are the type of cars you need to have 20k set aside just in case something goes wrong, and given enough time, something WILL go wrong. That's the different between the NSX ownership experience vs. the Ferrari one.
And for those of you looking at 360s right now because they are relatively cheap, always remember these types of cars are cheap for a reason. Firstly, try finding one that has been driving more then 20k miles. Secondly, compare the maintenance records and costs of those <20k miles ownership histories. More often then not, you will see 10k here 10k there, and it really adds up. All on a car which has been driven less then 20k miles. 360s are "better" then most Ferraris, but as time goes on, the weaknesses of the design, components, parts, and drivetrain are all exposed one by one in gigantic service repair bills all in cars with less then 20k miles.
I believe it all stems from the company culture at Ferrari. They traditionally never respected the road car buyers and for decades have chosen to use inferior parts and ignore/refuse to fix obvious issues. Just look at the recent 458 recall to see how long they took to respond.
Ferrari is getting better, but 360 is not the leap forward you might think. From looking at the California and FF, I think they are on the right track, but personally, I am waiting for Ferrari to prove itself before I dip my toes back into those waters.
288 GTO ???!!!! I am very impressed !! That car is so beautiful with the voluptuous flares, high mount mirrors, and the quad fog lamps. I would love to own one but they are going for way too much money now days.
To the OP if I had the room for another toy I would buy this 1976 308 GTB with the fiberglass body:
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds...Facet=308&modelFacet=308GTS&modelFacet=308GTB
It's not in the best condition but I am sure this car will be worth a lot of money in a few years.
the F430 is my favorite Ferrari. i love the F1 transmission. the car is just so comfortable and easy to drive. switch to a timing chain also makes it a little cheaper to own. i do want one some day, in fact it is next in line... but i prefer the NSX (and Z) over it. it all comes down to what feels right to you.
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^^
Yeah, incredible car, but we are talking about a budget of 50-60K vs 275K .. which, is a BIG difference!
Yeah, incredible car, but we are talking about a budget of 50-60K vs 275K .. which, is a BIG difference!
Nope I am not a poser, I am have owned a 328, 355, 456, 550, and 360 here is the one word to describe them all = JUNK, now let the hating begin.
When you buy a Ferrari you want to be part of "the club", you want to pull up to Starbucks on Sunday and have everyone look at you, you want to take your car to the dealer and have him tell you it will be 3 weeks before he can look at it and when he does a piece of trim molding is $800, you want to buy Ferrari hats and shirts so when people ask, you can say "yes I do have a Ferrari".
Here is the simple truth. To a great degree they are art, but to a great degree they break, are very costly to purchase and repair, for the most part depreciate greatly, and for the most part always have some problems. Most are not driven or enjoyed. They sit in a garage until the next model comes out and they can bring their 7000 mile 3 year old car back to the dealer, lose $100k and get the "newer" one and start the cycle over again.
Dont get me wrong, a car of this caliber should be art, but it should also be functional and mechanically sound, hence the NSX is the perfect blend, its a work of art that is functional.
I am NOT a Ferrari hater, I have owned them because I wanted to say I am part of the "club", the reality is I have also owned 3 NSX's (the same one twice) and have a 1998 NSX, she looks exotic as a sports car should, is mechanical and functional, as a HONDA should, and gets a little respect on the road since she is supercharged.....
Ferrari owners are NOT NSX owners, we have passion.:biggrin:
my .02 cents worth,
Sam
When you buy a Ferrari you want to be part of "the club", you want to pull up to Starbucks on Sunday and have everyone look at you, you want to take your car to the dealer and have him tell you it will be 3 weeks before he can look at it and when he does a piece of trim molding is $800, you want to buy Ferrari hats and shirts so when people ask, you can say "yes I do have a Ferrari".
Here is the simple truth. To a great degree they are art, but to a great degree they break, are very costly to purchase and repair, for the most part depreciate greatly, and for the most part always have some problems. Most are not driven or enjoyed. They sit in a garage until the next model comes out and they can bring their 7000 mile 3 year old car back to the dealer, lose $100k and get the "newer" one and start the cycle over again.
Dont get me wrong, a car of this caliber should be art, but it should also be functional and mechanically sound, hence the NSX is the perfect blend, its a work of art that is functional.
I am NOT a Ferrari hater, I have owned them because I wanted to say I am part of the "club", the reality is I have also owned 3 NSX's (the same one twice) and have a 1998 NSX, she looks exotic as a sports car should, is mechanical and functional, as a HONDA should, and gets a little respect on the road since she is supercharged.....
Ferrari owners are NOT NSX owners, we have passion.:biggrin:
my .02 cents worth,
Sam
I've entertained the idea of getting into an F-car at some point, but it's threads like these that bring me back to my senses.
They look and sound so great, and if we didn't have a sort of inane and unexplainable passion for cars we wouldn't be car enthusiasts. But, passion + cash in the pocket can lead to buyer's remorse when one doesn't think before acting. Every time I look at a Ferrari maintenance receipt I am horrified, and every time I see one for sale the ultra low mileage tells me that they never drive it.
Some people can afford to buy and maintain such things (you think an F-car is bad? Try affording to maintain a private jet). It's pocket change for some, but not for me. I want to DRIVE the thing if I pay that much to buy and maintain it.
To me, a Porsche is much more sensible (I'd like to find my way into a GT3 eventually), but car guys do lots of things that don't make much sense, and that's OK. Having fun gets expensive! :biggrin:
They look and sound so great, and if we didn't have a sort of inane and unexplainable passion for cars we wouldn't be car enthusiasts. But, passion + cash in the pocket can lead to buyer's remorse when one doesn't think before acting. Every time I look at a Ferrari maintenance receipt I am horrified, and every time I see one for sale the ultra low mileage tells me that they never drive it.
Some people can afford to buy and maintain such things (you think an F-car is bad? Try affording to maintain a private jet). It's pocket change for some, but not for me. I want to DRIVE the thing if I pay that much to buy and maintain it.
To me, a Porsche is much more sensible (I'd like to find my way into a GT3 eventually), but car guys do lots of things that don't make much sense, and that's OK. Having fun gets expensive! :biggrin:
i don't like the italia, i have not driven a dual clutch that i truly liked. rough clutch engagement from a stop, stop and go, parking, etc. ruin it for me. great performance, but that isn't everything to me. a great drive is more important. that said i have no interest in being a part of any club, you rarely ever see me at a car meet/ show and if i am, i tend to be miserable, attending for work or as a favor to someone. its just another great car to me and i would not settle for one that drove poorly, just for the name. i have been known to drive crap just for performance. lol.
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I agree that most Ferrari buyers use them as status symbols instead of actual high performance fun to drive cars, but I think saying they lack passion is a little unfair. Although I respect Lamborghini as a car maker more then Ferrari these days, Lamborghini attracts way more "posers" then Ferrari. From what I've seen, people are generally drawn to Ferrari due to the rich history, and frequently F1 enthusiasts and car enthusiasts in general are drawn to Ferrari for what the brand represents in the motorsports world.
But if I have to say one thing about NSX owners, if I see one on the road, I know behind the wheel is a real thoroughbred car enthusiast. :biggrin:
For me it's not so much the $ signs associated with the maintenance that is bothersome, although without question it is blatantly ridiculous.
The problem is that Ferrari systematically uses inferior parts, don't admit to design defects, and will gladly replace failing parts with new versions of the failing parts which will need to be replaced again. All the while the cars are largely untested with less then 20k miles on the odo so as time goes on more and more of these issues crop up.
It really is an exercise in stockholm syndrome brand loyalty - paying through the nose for inferior parts which your car is off the road for weeks at a time (longer with engine out service models).
And that my friend, also couldn't have been better stated. I said something similar in regards to this post the other day. NSX's are few. Period. A Ferrari does out rank it, but there are MANY Ferraris built. Not so many NSX's. Classical. Personally, I even own much newer cars...nice cars, yet, none gives me as much joy as my NSX in all honesty. And none of them get the same attention from onlookers and enthusiasts alike.
That's also prolly because your car is tastefully modded :wink:
Case closed and Mission Accomplished!! Cheers, folks :biggrin:
THanks
You know, ironically, this thread helped me out as well. I love my NSX, but I had already made my mind up that in a few years I might be going with a 360 Ferrari. I knew all that was posted here just as you did, but reassurance can't hurt right. THanks to my fellow Primers I too am back to sanity lol. If anything I will move up to an NA2 (preferably Imola) and e done with it. I KNOW Ferraris are prestigious, but I'm sorry, I just happen to KNOW also that NSX's are admired immensely. I witness it almost daily. Thanks Primers!:biggrin:
