Sway Bar Setting?

[1BADNSX]

I always do tire pressure adjustments first. Shock damping second. Then go to the sway adjustment.

I do not suggest this method. There will be an optimal tire pressure for every tire, size, load, camber, and other factors. Running more or less than the optimal pressure will produce less grip and may balance your car, but the balance is at the expense of optimal grip. Near optimal tire pressure and camber is usually determined through tire temperatures. And no you do not want the temperature to be even across the tread for optimal grip. You want the inside temperature to be 15 to 30 degrees hotter with a linear profile down to the middle and outside. Tire companies can also give you close to optimal hot pressures and camber to start with via their web site or tire engineers.

But optimal tire pressures can only be determined after you have decent balance (under/oversteer) in the car. Decent balance is accomplished in large steps with changes in springs first. The bars can be adjusted later on to fine tune for track conditions or design as a quick change.

Bob

 

[docjohn]

I agree with Andrie.I assume from reading Tiger's exploits that he is an advanced intermediate,and should be concentrating on his skill and gaining experience,whatever his setup.I don't believe that students should be too concerned with suspension mods as long as the car is not too screwed up,and I doubt his car is.I too have had students say their car is twitchy and loose,after a ride I can see why,heavy late braking,late turn in -steering to get to the apex,ect..or they say it understeers,,,and I say please take your foot off the gas if you intend to turn down to the apex you just missed I also agree that moving the sway mount hole inward stiffens the bar.

 

[TigerNSX]

Thanks for your help.

I would actually like to clarify my original question by saying that I am only an intermediate/beginner student who is still focused on learning the "fundamental" skills. I did not intend to ask the question in order for me to figure out how to go faster, but rather to see if I can feel less intimidated.

During my last track events of last year (3-day), I spun out twice in my car which I had never changed settings (the car originally came with sway bars and I never touched the settings) - no accident whatsoever, btw. I was not kicked out of the event since my instructor told the supervisor that it was his fault.

These all happened when exiting the corner. My instructor told me to give a bit more gas when exiting a tight turn - which I did very gently. When the car spun out, he told me that he did not think that the car would do that with just tab more gas.

This has not happened to me before in the same car (the same car that I ran at NSXPO 2005 without any incident). Granted, I could have been less cautious during that track event. However, after that day, I became really scared of driving on the track.

I am still scared about driving and want to make it as safe as possible so that my car is more forgiving to my mistakes until I regain my confidence since I really enjoy driving at the track.

Someone mentioned that I could make the car less aggressive by adjusting the sway bar. So, I figured that I could perhaps try that to make me feel less intimidated. That's why I asked, and I truly appreciated all your inputs.

 

[VBNSX]

in that case i'm guessing your going to put the setting back closer to stock?

btw.. how was the 2005 NSXPO? I can't believe I missed it! had plans to go too.. :wink:

j/p..

see you on the track..

x

 

[ANYTIME]

in that case i'm guessing your going to put the setting back closer to stock?

btw.. how was the 2005 NSXPO? I can't believe I missed it! had plans to go too.. :wink:

j/p..

see you on the track..

x

NSXPO 2005 hasn't happened yet. The dates are Oct 7-11th, 2005 :smile:

Info can be found on their site in progress here

 

[TigerNSX]

in that case i'm guessing your going to put the setting back closer to stock?

btw.. how was the 2005 NSXPO? I can't believe I missed it! had plans to go too.. :wink:

j/p..

see you on the track..

x

Oops.. I meant 2004.. :tongue:
Thanks! See you soon.

 

[the nsxnut]

Thanks for your help.
These all happened when exiting the corner. My instructor told me to give a bit more gas when exiting a tight turn - which I did very gently. When the car spun out, (snip)

Tiger, ref. my post above, re: rears losing grip when leaving corners...
If you are having trouble getting power down (breaking traction), softening your rear (shock/spring rate/tire pressure/sway bar) will improve that condition. Also, the TCS obviously comes into play. On, or off? Most advanced/instructor drivers run with it off, but instructors usually recommend leaving it ON until one has numerous track days, at multiple tracks, under your belt. Leaving it ON while 'learning' will show one how to 'finesse' the gas to apply power smoothly, otherwise, the damn ECU takes away your throttle foot... :wink:

 

[TigerNSX]

That makes sense. Thanks so much!

 

[Peter Mills]

Tiger:
What 3 day school did you attend and on what track was it held?
What corner did you spin?

 

[apapada]

In practice it's typically better to try and improve one ends grip (rear bar) than reduce the other (front bar) to gain a net result (less oversteer). Of course you'll get a bit more roll, but you'll be better off total grip wise.

why do you say you would you end up with more roll since the front end is tigher ? I don't think the NSX chassis is that flexible that it will allow body roll at the rear when the front one wont budge...

 

[ak]

Hey Tiger, what kind of Springs/shocks do you have? For me, H&R springs/koni shocks and dali street/track bar set at middle hole in the front and 2nd hole from the stiffest setting on the rear works well. Very neutral with a little understeer. You probably have to think about alignment and tire size as well. My rears are 275/35ZR18 with 2.5 degree negative camber which gives me more understeer to begin with. The thing I like about my setup is that since the koni is adjustable, I can change the shock setting while at the track. To my surprise, the shock setting does affect the car feel quite a bit. Good enough for beginner like me.

-ak

 

[apapada]

To solve the problem mentioned above (oversteer), make changes on the end of the car that is acting up, which is the rear. Therefore you need to soften the rear bar. You make the bar softer by increasing the moment arm (holes closer to the end of the bar).

Bob, what you say is not entirely accurate as one cannot just focus on one end of the car when everything is about balance front vs rear. What happens if your front end is set to the most stiff position and you still have too much oversteer? With your assertion, one would probably say "go buy a thicker swaybar", when he should maybe focus on the rear of the car and make that end a bit stiffer.
What you said however is absolutely correct when you have a good setting and something happens and the car does not respond like it used to. The problem probably comes from the end of the car that is now acting up. However, when one is hunting for good settings, he needs to consider both ends together...

 

[1BADNSX]

Bob, what you say is not entirely accurate as one cannot just focus on one end of the car when everything is about balance front vs rear. What happens if your front end is set to the most stiff position and you still have too much oversteer?

Of course you soften the rear bar! :wink:

I know what you mean, but believe you meant the rear was at the softest and too much oversteer or the front was at the softest and too much understeer. I agree in some cases you must adjust the other end. I should have said that it is usually best to make changes on the ill handling end of the vehicle.

Bob

 

[mikeh]

Tiger,

Did the previous owner give you the original sway bars? If so, reinstall them.

Regardless of what shocks/springs you're running, these will put you back into a 'normal' range (with a bit of understeer if you have stock suspension, but that's fine when you're still working on the fundamentals).

From what you have posted, IMO, you now have a confidence problem after looping your car twice (which is completely reasonable from anyone spinning a few times when they first start out!). Until you get your confidence back, your learning curve will flatten out because you will be afraid of everything and will be paying too much attention to the wrong thing (my car is twitchy/understeer what can i change/tune to fix this).

There is a reason it's a common recommendation for people to start their track schools/days with close to stock cars. Alot of the blingy performance parts you read about on the net, magazines and these forums *might* be well and dandy, but you won't have the skills to fully utilize a stock car (specially an nsx!) let alone a modified one. And if you can't get close to fully utilizing what you have, there is *NO WAY* you will be able to set it up. Please don't take it personal, it's just the way it is.

If you want to get the most out of your track time and the instructors time, get your suspension back as close to stock as you can and do a few more track days. Let the instructor know about your last few events and that you looped it a few times (it isn't anything to be ashamed of). Only focus on your technique and line for the next couple track days (not just sessions, i'm talking about all your track time).

After a couple track days like that (it's different for everyone, could be just one event or it could be a dozen, take your time) you will have your confidence back and will have *substantially* increased your skill. Your laptimes will be *way* lower and you won't even have realized it.... then the go-fast crack pipe really kicks in, and you can start changing your setup...

Cheers,

-mike

 

[Edgemts]

I would recommend that you take the rear sway bar OFF and leave the rest alone. Make sure your tires are good and your pressures and temps are good. Do 4-5 hot hard laps, and if possible have someone on pit road check your tires right from the track.
Learn to drive the car with confidence, then start making a few changes, one at a time. Once you get some time in, you will probably go full stiff on the front sway, leave rear off.

 

[titaniumdave]

The Dali street/track sway bars are about the same as the Type-R sways, leave the front full stiff, set the rear to the middle setting and drive the car. This is a 'stock' setting for a Type-R and a good place to learn to improve your skills, like mikeh has suggested.

Like Andrie stated, till you can drive the car at the limit, with out going over, all the time, all the adjustments will mean nothing and just make things confusing. Drive the car, drive the same track and if you can, get an instructor who drives an NSX. Ride along as much as possible with other drivers to see how they deal with the corners you are having problems in. The best thing for me when I was learing to drive the NSX, was to drive the same track at least once a month to keep practicing the same skills, on the same track, with the same set up, with the same tires, the same tire pressure(checked immediatly after each session), so the only variable was me. Once I was consistant, only then did I make changes, I had 8 track sessions in and was driving in the advanced group before I changed anything more than tires, tire pressure and alignment settings.

 

[TigerNSX]

Tiger:
What 3 day school did you attend and on what track was it held?
What corner did you spin?

Hi, Peter,

It was actually a 4-day school at NHIS by BMWCCA (2 days with Boston Chapter and 2 days with White Mountain, all consecutive days), but I was only there for 3 days.

It was a corner going up the hill to the infield coming out of the NASCAR oval. It was really a minor spin out, but definitely let me down.

I am trying to sign up for some events in which you are going to instruct this year.

 

[Peter Mills]

Tiger:
Were these schools after NSXPO 2004?
If they were after XPO what was the air temp? Was it overcast or sunny?
Did you have your TCS on or off? What air pressure were your tires set at?
This corner coming off the NASCAR portion of the track is 180 degree right uphill? Did you spin off to the left or to the right?
If you feel more comfortable discussing in private, e-mail or phone me tomorrow. 914 242 7474

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

I agree wholeheartedly with mikeh and titaniumdave. Don't do too many modification on your car before learning to drive. Sometimes it is not the car, but it's the driver. To make the car understeer to much might be more dangerous. As you will try to throw the car around to overcome the inital understeer, and you will end up with mid-phase oversteer which will be hard to overcome by inexperience driver.

From reading your previous post, I am guessing you have limited experience. You should not worry about the modification and concentrate in building your confidence and learning to drive again.

If it is me, I would heed to mikeh advice and stick with stock setup. If you must have modification, I would put stock sway bar and put the NSX-R suspension in the car. The least adjustment the better.

BTW, had the opportunity to rekindle my passion with NSX-R suspension over the weekend when Ken let me drove his car for 4 laps. That suspension kicks ass!

 

[kaiser-nsx]

just like you said...
less stiffer rear, more front.

 

[swbatte]

Hi Guys,

This has been one of the most informative threads yet. I just purchased the Tein RA suspension and will install it in the spring. Your discussion has convinced me to skip aftermarket sway bars for now and just get the car set up right and learn to drive it.

I purchased aftermarket dampers/springs as my stock 92's are probably fading. Is there a way to determine a setup for these adjustable suspensions that will maintain the balance of the car?

Thanks,
Sean

 

[VBNSX]

Hi Guys,

This has been one of the most informative threads yet. I just purchased the Tein RA suspension and will install it in the spring. Your discussion has convinced me to skip aftermarket sway bars for now and just get the car set up right and learn to drive it.

I purchased aftermarket dampers/springs as my stock 92's are probably fading. Is there a way to determine a setup for these adjustable suspensions that will maintain the balance of the car?

Thanks,
Sean

It's interesting that you say that b/c I bought the Tein RA's last year around the June timeframe..... and they're still in the box solely b/c of this website discussing the importance of learning how to drive the car effectively. I even have the 10lb rear springs!

x

 

[NSX-Racer]

Is there a way to determine a setup for these adjustable suspensions that will maintain the balance of the car?

I've seen even experienced drivers getting totally lost during this tuning work - I would start with a "middle" setup provided by the distributor/producer. If you want to change anything later ask a real guru for help - as already stated most of a car's behaviour (under/oversteer) is not due to the suspension but the driver.