Sway Bar Setting?

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28 December 2001
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Hello,

My car currently has street/track Dali way bars. What setting do you have for track events? What would be a setting that will remove the oversteering tendency? I would like the rear-end to be less twitch and be safer.

Do you need less stiffer rear end and stiffer front end?

Thank you.
 
Due to wheel rates, the NSX rear sway bar is more effective than the front (given equal bar dia). In other words you'll get a bigger change by softening the rear by one hole than stiffening the front by one hole. In practice it's typically better to try and improve one ends grip (rear bar) than reduce the other (front bar) to gain a net result (less oversteer). Of course you'll get a bit more roll, but you'll be better off total grip wise.
 
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Along those lines and not to hijack your thread ..............

I have noticed that with the Type R braces, Comptech sway bars full stiff on the front and middle hole in the rear, in relatively cool ambient temps (60s), Bilstein/OEM springs, OEM street tires running hot at 33/40, OEM alignment, I am having some push or understeer at the track; even taking slightly later apexes I am finding the need to lift momentarily at track out to avoid running out of track.

I give the details of the mods because (a) the mods/set-up make a differnece in answering the question, and (b) while watching NASCAR's Daytona race, I was trying to understand the commentary whenever they made a reference to what adjustments were made to the cars that had a push. They most often focused on sway bar adjustments and tire pressure on the rear outside tires but rarely gave insightful information, as in: did they lower the tire pressure by 0.25 psi, did they loosen the sway bar when they said it was adjusted ..........

So, my thinking is this: given how stiffer the front of "my set-up" is now compared to the rear, this set-up may be better with track tires than street tires. Until I get my track tires, I am thinking of stiffening the rear sway bars to full stiffness to induce a little more oversteer and hence have better throttle steer, or reduce the stiffness of the front sway bar to the middle hole. I am thinking the sway bar adjustments are more effective than lowering the rear tire pressure at the speeds that we are going; with street tires with good tread, the rears are getting about 8 psi when hot.

It is my understanding than in warmer weather, the same set up that worked well in cooler temps as say neutral, will now induce oversteer due to the tires performance. Not sure why if the tire temps are adjusted to keep the same operating temps on the track.

Comments appreciated.
 
TigerNSX said:
Hello,

My car currently has street/track Dali way bars. What setting do you have for track events? What would be a setting that will remove the oversteering tendency? I would like the rear-end to be less twitch and be safer.

Do you need less stiffer rear end and stiffer front end?

Thank you.

In which holes are the bars set at now?
 
Front: all the way inside (from the edge)
Rear: 2nd from the edge

Is this too stiff?

Thank you.
 
Either move the front bar to the center(looser) or the rear bar to the inside hole(stiffer). I believe the initial setting is to use both center holes. I would try both center holes first and then go stiffer on the rear if you need more steering/oversteer.

Stiffer rear/looser front = more oversteer
Stiffer front/looser rear = more understeer.

That's if I didn't loose too many brain cells.........
 
I agree with Mark completely. Loosen the rear first. I run the thickest Dali bar up front on the middle setting, and the stock bar in the rear, and I do have understeer because of not enough negative camber and not enough meat on the rims. But it is nice to be able to lift in almost any condition and not have the rear end let loose.

I plan to experiment this year with both greater negative camber (>3 degrees) and/or larger rear bar (with the DAL racing front bar) as I get better controlling my tail:D
 
Hrant said:
So, my thinking is this: given how stiffer the front of "my set-up" is now compared to the rear, this set-up may be better with track tires than street tires. It is my understanding than in warmer weather, the same set up that worked well in cooler temps as say neutral, will now induce oversteer due to the tires performance. Not sure why if the tire temps are adjusted to keep the same operating temps on the track.
Rule of thumb: The stickier the tires the stiffer the suspension - otherwise you would have too much sway and brake diving - so your thinking is right.

Regarding the temperature: Higher temperature may lead to a better grip up to a certain extent (depends on the kind of tires) but if you're over the optimal point of tire temp (about 80-90 deg. Celsius for race slicks) the grip gets worse again. Unfortunately you can adjust the tire temp only in a small range with the pressure - so tire temp adjusting is not really possible.
 
This is really cool thread...I have dealing with this exact issue as we speak...

I just got done with the Type R shock installation...car was realigned...

My NSX has the Type R chassis reinforcement and the Comptech adjustable sway bars...also OEM 15/16 rims with SO3 tires...

I have also noticed the significant understeer with the car...very annoying and frustrating...

I started off with middle settings on both front and rear bars...

I ended up...after many adjustments...and the best I can do...

1. Front bar...the softest setting...most inward hole...
2 Rear bar...the hardest setting...most outward hole...

I have talked to many "experts"...and they have said that this is very typical of the NSX and Honda's desire to always keep the tendency to understeer...probably for liability sake...suggested ways to improve...

1. change front tires to increase width and increase wall stiffness...
2. remove the rear bar...better lateral transition and ultimately better neutral to oversteer handling....
3. increase rear tire pressure...

It is too cold in Chicagoland area...so I really can't test out the suggestions...

Any thoughts?????
 
mystican said:
1. Front bar...the softest setting...most inward hole...
2 Rear bar...the hardest setting...most outward hole...

I have talked to many "experts"...and they have said that this is very typical of the NSX and Honda's desire to always keep the tendency to understeer...probably for liability sake...suggested ways to improve...

1. change front tires to increase width and increase wall stiffness...
2. remove the rear bar...better lateral transition and ultimately better neutral to oversteer handling....
3. increase rear tire pressure...
Any thoughts?????

My understanding was softest setting was loosening the bar which meant to increase the overall length of the bar.. ie, closest to the end of the bar.

With this in mind, you have ultimately created your own understeer. You may want to put your front to the center hole.

Also, if you remove the rear bar you'll have more understeer than you could possibly dream of.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I'm fairly sure this is correct.

x
 
A little physics here...

Torque is proportional to ARM length...so if you increase the length of the sway bar arm from its fulcrum...you will increase the torque arm...

At least that is how I look at it...

Ajay
 
mystican said:
A little physics here...

Torque is proportional to ARM length...so if you increase the length of the sway bar arm from its fulcrum...you will increase the torque arm...

At least that is how I look at it...

Ajay

Correct, but the resistance to twist is constant, as the arm gets longer the degree of rotation is less to get the same amount of travel at the sway bar link. Therefore, longer arm=softer setting.
 
mystican said:
A little physics here...

Torque is proportional to ARM length...so if you increase the length of the sway bar arm from its fulcrum...you will increase the torque arm...
All physics aside: Ask any sway bar dealer or producer here and race track addicts like me - reality proves that shorter sway bar arms lead to less sway - been there, done that.
 
I didn't read the whole thread. Here is my take. In order for you to fiddle around with the suspension, one must be able to take the car near the limit. Otherwise, it is all moot point as the car will actually behave on how you drive it.

For instance, I had a student who complained the car is very twitchy in the rear, and just like you, Tiger, he wants to adjust the rear sway bar to get more bite for the rear. I went out drove the car and declare the car is understeering the way it is. Then I went for a ride with him driving the car. This is where I found out why he complained the car is twitchy. He go into the trun late, and swing the car chasing the apex. keep cranking the steering wheel until he get into the apex. Scared the shit out of me. He didn't feel the understeer, because he keeps going slower chasing the apex in the meantime transferring all the weight to the front and making the rear light.

[rant]This is the way most BMW school and our own NSXCA school taught people. To take the turn late, thus safer. IMHO, to be safe is to teach them how to take turns properly. [/rant]

The point is, know how to drive first before do any modification. When I mean learn how to drive, is learn how to drive fast. If you know all the theory but can't push the car near tp the limit, it is also a moot point.
 
NSX-Racer said:
All physics aside: Ask any sway bar dealer or producer here and race track addicts like me - reality proves that shorter sway bar arms lead to less sway - been there, done that.
NSX-Racer, I agree with your statement above, but I read it to disagree with:

1. Front bar...the softest setting...most inward hole...
2 Rear bar...the hardest setting...most outward hole...

Which is confusing the bar tension (soft/hard) and the hole direction, the way it I read it.

To solve the problem mentioned above (oversteer), make changes on the end of the car that is acting up, which is the rear. Therefore you need to soften the rear bar. You make the bar softer by increasing the moment arm (holes closer to the end of the bar).

NSX-Racer and most folks know this, but the inward/outward discussion is confusing.

Bob
 
From RTR and Peter Cunningham (famous former NSX racer):
Full stiff in front. Full soft in rear.
lots of front camber for sharp turn-in; soft rear end for max grip (less oversteer)
One tendency of the NSX (when driven hard) is to get wheel spin from the inside rear as you leave slow corners; softening rear bar gives more rear end grip, reduces oversteer, improves power delivery.

I run Dali 23mm track bar at full stiff (holes furthest from the end of the bar) in front, and have NO bar on the rear.

Body roll is not as relevant as grip level.
 
I like my Dali road/track bars set up full stiff in the front and one link in the softest position in the rear, the other one hole in from the softest.
 
So instead of upgrading both the stock sway bars, why not just upgrade the front one and leave the rear as is?
 
SoCalDude said:
So instead of upgrading both the stock sway bars, why not just upgrade the front one and leave the rear as is?


Because unless you take other considerations and variables such as what suspension you have, what tires on street vs track you use, whether it is mainly a street car vs track car or combo ...... and for those with T who want less body roll, using that simple equation or suggestion will not work.

While I appreciate the comments of others above, without the specifics of what type of mods they have, etc., it is hard to evaluate which option is better for reducing oversteer; it becomes a very subjective review.

In my case, the Comptech sway bars (using stiffest in the front and middle in the rear) mated with Bilstein was fine for my dual mostly street/track purposes until I added the Type R brace. Both ncdogdoc and Mysitcan have noticed the same understeer with even stiffer suspensions than mine; and both propose different solutions. We learn from each others' experiments. HTH.
 
SoCalDude said:
So instead of upgrading both the stock sway bars, why not just upgrade the front one and leave the rear as is?

It is not uncommon at all... I know many owners with a stiffer front bar, and stock rear bar.

As long as your shocks/springs are relatively well balanced (same rate ratios as stock), and your tires are suitable, there is no doubt that you will improve rear grip by softening the rear bar. That is not subjective.
 
Well I am having a similar dilema.

My car: Type R suspension. Type R braces, Non compliance beam and toe links. Dali Street/track bars on middle setting.

The first time I went out(11/04) with the new suspension. I had quite a bit of understeer. I wasn't able to push the car due to rain/cold weather. I am going to TWS next wknd. I am thinking of waiting and seeing how the car does the first day prior to messing with sway bar settings.

What do you guys think? TIA
 
I always do tire pressure adjustments first. Shock damping second. Then go to the sway adjustment.

When I change tires I go through it all again, whether it is a size change or a brand, even new tires with full depth tread of the same brand and size. Everything is inter-related and the balance of the whole car will change when one element changes. It is important to use all the information as guidelines, it takes a better than average set of driving skills and experience to be able to figure suspension set up out the first time. For the rest of us, it is a matter of testing each change and documenting results to come up with the best handling. This is also subjective for each driver, so in the end there will be things one person likes and another won't. Try different set ups and see what matches your skills and likes.
 
NSXLuvr said:
Well I am having a similar dilema.

My car: Type R suspension. Type R braces, Non compliance beam and toe links. Dali Street/track bars on middle setting.

The first time I went out(11/04) with the new suspension. I had quite a bit of understeer. I wasn't able to push the car due to rain/cold weather. I am going to TWS next wknd. I am thinking of waiting and seeing how the car does the first day prior to messing with sway bar settings.

What do you guys think? TIA


What tires did you use? I am presuming street tires if it was raining.

I too have the non-compliance toe links and have been on the track with the Type R braces twice, and twice in temps in the low 60F and on street tires. My guess is that with track tires, we may see much less understeer.

Loosening the front sway bar may cause problems with the Type R on the 97+ models which we just resolved :wink: ......... so the only option left is to stiffen the rear and play with tire pressure, unless I am missing something more obvious.
 
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