Suggested Sway Settings

Tank said:

My apologies to anyone that took offense or thought I was talking beyond my expertise. I didn't mean to have it come out that way.

Tank, no need to apology. You simply raised a good question and we are involved in great discussion.

I definitely did not took any offense. And I don't think Brian took any offense either.

We all trying to learn more and more. I certainly learn something new today. :)
 
Great discussion. My thoughts:

Pros to lowering
- Lower CG and less weight transfer per g of acceleration
- Potentially better aerodynamics and less drag and frontal lift

Cons to lowering
- Less suspension travel
- Need stiffer springs to compensate for less suspension travel
- Need more damping to compensate for stiffer springs
- Changes to both camber curves and bump steer
- Changes to roll center
- Effectively shorter control arms
 
Damn,

I guess I will keep what I think is "nice" to myself next time.......LOL:p

Anyway, here is the data on the Zanardi suspension that is lowered. Confirms the basic ideas 1BADNSX relates to:

The front and rear shock rebound rates have been increased by 99 percent and 31 percent, respectively, along with compression rates that have been increased by 72 percent and 50 percent. Front and rear springs are 103 percent and 32 percent stiffer, respectively, along with firmer bushings — yielding front and rear roll centers that are lower by 0.6 inches in front and 0.3 inches at the rear. A lower overall vehicle height and center of gravity also contribute to improved cornering.

Guys, When I said it "would be nice" I was refering to look/feel on the street. Jerry is a relatively new owner, picking up his NSX on 6/18/03. My comment was not about shaving .1 sec off his lap time quite yet!!

Although I agree it is a great topic and conversation.

Also in regard to bumpsteer it is not that easy to correct in an NSX that has been lowered since the mounting bolts for the rack are horizontal. (Not like a 911, where we just added a 1" spacer at $20:).

My $.02
LarryB
 
Larry Bastanza said:
Also in regard to bumpsteer it is not that easy to correct in an NSX that has been lowered since the mounting bolts for the rack are horizontal. (Not like a 911, where we just added a 1" spacer at $20:).

LarryB

We had this discussion the other day, and you are right, no easy solution.

However, I still stand by my comments that my bumpsteer was not bad enough that it warrant any changes. I need to go home and check my notes on my ride height again. Maybe it is not that low after all ;)
 
This has been a great discussion and I've learned A LOT as a relatively new NSX owner.

And I really do highly recommend the Zanardi suspension. As I mentioned earlier, I bought all the parts from Acura and they worked better than expected. For anyone out there looking for an easy improvement in suspension for a modest price and great result (no knowledge required), this is a great place to start. Again, this isn't the high-end race set-up thing, but it's a nice lowering and big jump in handling performance over the stock suspension.

Thanks everyone.

T
 
This is a great topic that deserves to be brought again. I'm looking at the Dali Sways, and I want to know if they have markings that suggest a default position/setup.
 
They should. Mine had a black marker identifying which holes to start with.

If yours don't, ask Mark.

Or, you can start with the "safest" setting and then adjust from there. Safest, IMHO, would be full stiff in front and full soft in rear. Full stiff means using the holes near the bar (away from the end) and full soft means using the holes at the end of the bar.

Another option is to just go with the middle set of holes on front and rear. The holes are only a little different anyway - and most drivers won't tell a huge difference in which is selected anyway.

Have fun now that you have an easily adjustable suspension component.
 
So going soft on the rear swaybar will reduce my snap oversteer? It plows at low speeds. Currently both the front and rear Dali sways are at full stiff. I'm running Bilstiens on lower perch, stock springs, 215/275's. I want to get an alignment using the following settings:

Front:
Caster 8 degrees +-.01 side to side
Camber -2 degrees +-.01 side to side
Toe out 4mm

Rear:
Camber -2 degrees +-.01 side to side
Toe in 4mm

Advice is welcome!
 
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So going soft on the rear swaybar will reduce my snap oversteer? It plows at low speeds. Currently both the front and rear are full stiff. I'm running Bilstiens on lower perch, stock springs, 215/275's. I want to get an alignment using the following settings:

Front:
Caster 8 degrees +-.01 side to side
Camber -2 degrees +-.01 side to side
Toe out 4mm

Rear:
Camber -2 degrees +-.01 side to side
Toe in 4mm

Advice is welcome!


If my car was plowing at slow speeds, I'd the fronts to the softest settings. Then add a pound of air to the front. Maybe take a pound out from the rear. Easiest way to start.
 
I agree with with KooLaid said.

However, snap oversteer sounds different than normal oversteer. Let me characterize normal oversteer and then you help describe what you mean by snap oversteer.

Normal oversteer, minor levels of it, feels like this. You brake for a turn, you release the brakes and roll into the turn. As you slowly move the steering wheel to follow your desired line, turning as sharp as necessary, the car's rear tires start to let go. You'll feel it as squishy in back at first, followed by feeling the rear end slide towards the outside. You'll need to turn less and/or reduce power, if any was being given, to "save" the oversteer.

But, what is, and when do you get, "snap oversteer"?
 
But, what is, and when do you get, "snap oversteer"?

I shall quote from thy Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snap_oversteer

"Snap oversteer is when a motor vehicle spins dramatically during a turn (usually un-expectantly). This is most common with mid-mounted engine, rear wheel drive (MR) vehicles. Mid-mounted engine vehicles have a much lower rotational inertia than a vehicles with a front mounted or rear mounted engine. The lower rotational inertia of mid-mounted engine vehicles causes the vehicle to spin much faster than a front or rear mounted engine vehicle. Snap oversteer if unexpected can catch the driver off guard when cornering, ultimately leading to loss of control of the vehicle."


So the problem here is that unfortunately many noobs, even those with much prior driving experience first learn about the 'snap' part in an expensive NSX the hard way. If it is the first time you have encountered it, unless you are Michael Schumacher, you probably won't realize what happened until long after the point of no return. Particularly in traction challenged conditions with inadequate grip capability.

Their are several ways in the NSX to get to see this in action.

Common ways some work themselves into this bad spot is to do a hard 1st to 2nd shift at WOT on crappy tires or with the TCS off on a nice wet slick road totally losing the rear end (throttle oversteer), lifting at or near the limit (lift-throttle oversteer), trailing off on exit particularly on a decreasing radius turn (trailing throttle oversteer), issuing an overly aggressive steering correction without a comparable recovery, or perhaps most common simply getting scared and lifting suddenly at or too close to the limit (throttle-off-oversteer).

The 'snap' is the sudden/drastic/often unpredictable let go of the rear end, leading to that stomach wrenching feeling you get knowing that the opportunity to correct/recover was 2 seconds ago in the past... having now lost total control of the vehicle. At its worst, now having your nose being pretty much pointed in the totally opposite direction of normal travel or finding yourself on the opposite side of the track without any clue as to how you got there. :biggrin:

This would be contrary to a more usual, predictable, relatively easily correctable, oversteer condition which would require less reaction time / driver competency on other platforms.

Technically, the key is that because more of the mass is off the extreme ends [centered along the length of the wheelbase yielding a lower PMI ] means less 'polar feel' for the driver. In some ways it is a contradiction, however think of it this way. A ME RWD platform won't come around faster because of a higher polar mass in the rear as you may think, it actually "comes around faster" if you will because the driver often doesn't feel it until later due to lower polar mass. It responds faster.

It is all about the weight distribution. Think of it like swinging a baton, having more mass toward the center means faster response at the poles. That is obviously good when you want it and expect it and very bad when you don't. Another often used example is standing on a dolly spinning, your rotation speeds up when you brings your arms in.

It does not have to be a mid-engined RWD platform either. A front mid engined platform like the 2K can exhibit similar characteristics just to a lesser extent.

One of my friends killed himself in the first week of owning his blingy new S2000 having traded up from a low power FWD civic... because he did a hard 2nd-3rd shift in the wet on a 2 lane road, didn't catch or whatever, and ended up in the on-coming lane of a semi trailer. Often times the higher hp the vehicle the more frequently this rears its head, which is one of the many aspects that makes the top tier CART racing drivers among others going wheel to wheel out their in the wet freakin' amazing to behold.

Some degree of risk can be mitigated in car setup, such as setting up the vehicle to tend to understeer or be more predictable on the compliance... but it is not as simple as asking about dali sway bar settings. It is the cumulative effect of everything that is relevant to how the car behaves and feels at or near the limit.

Getting back to the root of it. If you want to really know about sway, pressures, or other settings, I recommend everyone find out on a wet skid pad what base characteristics your specific vehicle has, as well as after making any serious suspension /setup change. Then, making small incremental changes from there.

This past weekend I got a fair amount of skid pad time in the NSX at Bremerton, as we wet down the VHT on the drag strip real good, and setup half the skid pad over it while the students were off running auto-x. I did not know what to expect with those mongo Dali bars and all the other changes I made as it was like driving a whole new vehicle to me.

It allowed me to test my machine's characteristics in a safe environment by first establishing the vehicles tendencies (understeer, neutral, or oversteer). Then feeling how a given setup responds when pushed with unusual inputs and/or over drastic surface traction changes before finding out the hard way on the track. Seeing as how it rained the next day, I was very glad I did.

Hope that helps.
 
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If my car was plowing at slow speeds, I'd the fronts to the softest settings. Then add a pound of air to the front. Maybe take a pound out from the rear. Easiest way to start.



John, thanks for the info!

Common ways some work themselves into this bad spot is to do a hard 1st to 2nd shift at WOT on crappy tires or with the TCS off on a nice wet slick road totally losing the rear end (throttle oversteer), lifting at or near the limit (lift-throttle oversteer), trailing off on exit particularly on a decreasing radius turn (trailing throttle oversteer), issuing an overly aggressive steering correction without a comparable recovery, or perhaps most common simply getting scared and lifting suddenly at or too close to the limit (throttle-off-oversteer).

It happened during hard cornering on a tight turn on one of the Palomar Mountain runs. I was WOT and the tires were RT-615's. I had just put on the Dali sways, with full stiff in the rear. After that happened I thought I was correcting it by tightening it up on the front bar, but now it just plows. It most likely didn't help much when I told my Acura dealer to set my alignment as close to the revised 91 spec as possible. It now feels like I have 0 toe front and rear. I'm going to have Greenlight put the front bar to the middle setting and the rear to the softest; and to put my alignment to the settings I posted above. I'm hoping someone will post that they have used similar settings and can give me some insight.:redface: :redface: :redface:
 
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John, thanks for the info!

[snip]
I'm going to have Greenlight put the front bar to the middle setting and the rear to the softest; and to put my alignment to the settings I posted above. I'm hoping someone will post that they have used similar settings and can give me some insight.:redface: :redface: :redface:

Mine is similar. For track tires level of grip, near stock alignment, on dry pavement, I'm jusing 1" thick bars, middle setting in front and .875" bar, softer in back. This still leaves me with mild oversteer, which is very driveable.

I hope this helps.
 
I'll simplify the mid-engine's tendency for snap-oversteer. As John pointed out it is not unique to mid-engine design as it happens in all cars. The simplest analogy is watching a figure skater when they are doing their spins. When they draw their hands in tight, they speed up, when they extend their hands outward they slow down. The NSX has it's mass in tight, so when it goes... it goes quick.

skater.jpg
 
I don't know but, the S2k nearly kicked my @ss when I slide it out once. Talk about FAST blazing hands to correct it....... That car is scary when it slides out, it feels like it pivots right where the shifter is.
 
Anyone feel like a bit of Necromancy? Having spent a better part of an hour "searching", I'm not seeing any numbers. I am seeing a lot of general discussion on car set up, but no specific measurement values.

Does anyone have some NSX specific suspension measurements that they care to share? I've got some that I've personally taken, I'd just like to compare and see if I am close to others before I compile the data together for a seperate thread.

Thanks :biggrin:

Ty B.
 
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