Stock gears + 4.55 RP

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My car is primarily a street car, but I also do a little weekend battling at the track. I will be doing a clutch replacement in the next few months and was wondering what your preferences of gear/rp combination is. I would like opinions from primarily track junkies who drive their cars very aggressively and have track/racing experience. I realize each gearing combination would depend on the types of tracks you attend. I currently consider Thunderhill my home track and would like gearing that is most suited for it. Some have said that the short gears + 4.55 feels great, but I am worried that it is too short. I have never driven a short geared NSX for a long period of time, so its hard for me to compare. Drivetrain wise, my car is nearly stock 94 and plan to do headers pretty soon to increase the HP slightly. I would be interested in your feedback.
 
There are two different aspects to replacement gears: the short gears and the R&P. The primary benefit of the short gears is just after the 1-->2 upshift, in the 40-60 mph range; the downside is that, in closing the gap between first and second gear, it opens the gaps between second and fifth. If you're most concerned with track performance, you're probably better off with the stock gears over the short gears, since you're typically spending time in the speed range 60-140 mph (depending on the track) where the stock gears are generally superior to the short gears.

The R&P won't have much effect overall on track performance. It will be better on some tracks, worse on others. It will have the effect of reducing all your shift points (speeds at which you upshift) by roughly 11 percent. It may put you in a higher gear in some stretches - into third where you were in the upper part of second with the stock R&P, and into fourth where you were in the upper part of third. There may be tracks where you do a lot of shifting with the stock R&P and less with the 4.55; there may be others where it is the reverse.

Overall, neither mod will do all that much for you if you drive a variety of road course tracks.

Of course, they will give you the perception that you are accelerating faster, because you will reach redline sooner - but at a lower road speed.
 
You WILL be accelerating faster. This is one case where perception is reality.

And, if most of your driving is done on the street...the advantages of lower gearing is more pronounced.

Try starting out from a dead stop in 2nd gear to get an idea of the difference.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
No, you won't be accelerating faster. Not necessarily; it depends on your speed.

You will be accelerating faster within any gear - in other words, at any speed where you would be driving in the same gear with either R&P. But you may be accelerating slower at many road speeds. You will be accelerating slower at any speed where you can be driving in a lower gear with the stock R&P than you can with the 4.55 R&P.

For example, the 4.55 is faster 0-40 mph. The stock R&P is faster 40-50. The 4.55 is faster 50-70. The stock R&P is faster 70-80. The 4.55 is faster 80-100. The stock R&P is faster 100-110, etc.

That's because the gearing is "shorter" at any speed where the higher-numerical-ratio R&P forces you into a higher gear than the stock R&P.

At most tracks, the most common speeds driven are between 60 mph (in the corners) and 110 mph (at the end of a relatively short straight). The stock gears with the stock R&P accelerates from 60 to 110 in 9.40 seconds, and with the 4.55 R&P, in 9.62 seconds.

If you're at a track like Road America, with long straights where you can get up to 140 mph, the 4.55 R&P will force you into fifth gear, whereas you're still in fourth with the stock R&P and accelerating faster. FWIW, the stock R&P does 60-140 in 22.33 seconds, and the 4.55 in 22.88.

The 4.55 R&P will have its biggest advantage over the stock one at the bottom of the speed range (taking off from a dead stop) and at the top of the speed range (above 150 mph), when both cars would be in the same gear. In between those speeds, there will be little if any difference between the two, and it will depend on what particular speeds you're at. That's why on the track - where the speeds vary but typically second to fourth gears are in use, with lots of shifting among them - benefits are often non-existent.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Acceleration (...the rate at which an object changes its velocity...) is always faster with the lower gears.

Whether or not the car is *faster* in a given period of time, or from 40 to 50 MPH, or because you have to shift sooner, has nothing to do with acceleration.

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
I had the opportunity to drive Ben Lin's NSX with short gears and the 4.23 R&P. The car feels much quicker because the big gap between 1st and 2nd is gone. In my NSX, 2nd picks up at 4200rpm whereas Ben's NSX picked up at around 5300, very close to VTEC. You can see what this does for acceleration runs off the line.

My favorite type of driving is in the hills. I find 2nd to be too tall and acceleration isn't all that great. However, I also track my car at Laguna Seca. For this application, the stock gears I may like better since I can drive around turns 2 through 5 mostly in 2nd gear. Short gears will will require more shifts on this track but I probably wouldn't mind it.

Since I only track my car a few times a year and do primarily canyon type driving, I will go with short gears and 4.23 R&P. I'm just not happy with the large gap between 1st and 2nd.

Also, the 4.23 R&P will bring your revs up by around 300rpm and the 4.55 about 600rpm compared to stock while crusing on the freeway.
 
I am not that interested in 'drag' performance, so 1->2 shift isn't that important, but I also don't like the bogging 2nd gear... so with 4.55 R&P second gear will start from 4200RPM + 600? 4800RPM?
Thats still not within VTEC I guess..
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
I am not that interested in 'drag' performance, so 1->2 shift isn't that important, but I also don't like the bogging 2nd gear... so with 4.55 R&P second gear will start from 4200RPM + 600? 4800RPM?
Thats still not within VTEC I guess..

The R&P does not change the spacing between any pair of gears. So after upshifting from first to second at redline, you'll be at the same revs with the 4.55 R&P (4499 RPM) as with the stock R&P.

The "bogging" is not caused by being out of VTEC range; torque, and thus acceleration, is fairly constant within the entire revband for maximum acceleration. The lack of power after the 1-->2 upshift is caused by the wide spacing between the two gear ratios. The short gears address this by closing this gap a bit (you'll be at 5085 RPM), while opening the gaps between 2 and 3, 3 and 4, and 4 and 5.
 
Forget acceleration numbers.

I think the *perception* and feeling of increased acceleration count a lot towards the overall fun quotient, specially in street-driving where one spends a lot of time in 1st / 2nd gears.

For me, such increased fun factor in daily driving situations is reason enough for me to consider the short gears + 4.23/4.55 RR.




[This message has been edited by 8000RPM (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Here is my 2 cents about acceleration put simply without going into any calculus. With the short gears, between 0 and 110 mph acceleration, the engine spends more of it's time above 5k or higher rpm where there is more power. Hence more force is applied in the given time which results in faster acceleration.
An extreme case of the opposite: (Hypatetically) Say the second gear were taller and from 1st to 2nd you ended up at 3500 rpm, then your enging would have to "crawl" through 3500rpm to 5500rpm (loosing all this time) before the good powerband. Thus, increasing that time of acceleration from 0.
NSXTASY's point is true on the track where your acceleration and speed is relative to where you are on the track or the track that you are on. Hence, taller gears will work better on higher speed tracks and shorter gears will work better on windy, low speed tracks. It all depends.......
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Acceleration (...the rate at which an object changes its velocity...) is always faster with the lower gears.

Well, Jimbo, there you go again, trying to play your word games to make it "sound" as though one option is faster when it's not always so. Let's look at the facts and how this all works.

Acceleration is a function of torque at the wheels. Torque at the wheels equals torque at the engine crank, less drivetrain losses, times gearing. For practical purposes, with the NSX (but not with all other cars), we can assume that drivetrain losses are a constant, and that torque at the engine is a constant. (When accelerating hard, torque at the engine actually varies up to roughly 20 percent, as you can see from this graph, but that's less than the difference in gear ratios, so loss of torque due to the gearing loss in any upshift will be greater than the torque gained from the lower RPM, which is why you can assume that it's constant.)

Now, putting your statement in different words, the effect of the gearing on acceleration always goes in one direction (staying with our assumption that torque and drivetrain losses are constant). In other words, shorter gearing (which is expressed as a higher numerical ratio, also called "lower" gearing) always results in faster acceleration than taller (higher) gearing. That is indeed true.

However, it is NOT true that you will always (IOW at all road speeds) have shorter gearing (overall gearing, including the changeable gears as well as the R&P) with a higher ratio R&P. That's because there are some road speeds at which you will be in different gears with a higher ratio R&P. For example, assuming you've got a stock five-speed, with the 4.55 R&P, you will be forced to upshift to third gear at 72 mph. With the stock R&P, you can stay in second gear up to 81 mph. So, as a result, an NSX with a stock R&P can accelerate faster from 72 mph to 81 mph than an NSX with a 4.55 R&P. However, at speeds just below that range, both transmissions would be in second gear for maximum acceleration, and the 4.55 would be faster than stock; similarly, at speeds just above that range, both would be in third and the 4.55 would be faster.

As you accelerate from 0 to top speed with either of the two R&P, you go through various "speed bands" - some speeds at which the stock R&P is faster, and others at which the 4.55 R&P is faster. Again, as noted above, the primary benefit of the 4.55 R&P is at low speeds (below 40 mph) before you hit these "speed bands", and at high speeds (above 150 mph) when you're above them. In between, the bands pretty much even out. Which is why the 4.55 R&P really doesn't do all that much on the track, as you can see from the 40-110 and 40-140 acceleration figures.

Incidentally, the reason that the 4.55 R&P gives the perception of being much faster than it is, is because the shift points are lower. Let's look at acceleration from 0 to 50 mph. From 0 to 40 mph takes 2.53 seconds with the 4.55 R&P, and 2.84 seconds with the stock R&P, yielding a benefit of 0.29 second for the 4.55. You upshift to second at 40 mph with the 4.55 R&P, but you keep accelerating to 45 mph with the stock R&P, which might take another 0.5 second. From 40 mph to 45 mph, the stock R&P is faster because you're in second gear, compared with third in the 4.55 R&P. The total time from 0 to 50 is 4.05 seconds with the stock R&P and 3.87 seconds with the 4.55 R&P, so the 4.55 gives you a benefit of 0.18 second. As you can see, the stock R&P is 0.09 second faster from 40 to 50 than the 4.55 R&P.

However, what you FEEL is how long you're accelerating in each gear, not how long it takes you to reach a given speed. Accelerating to redline with the 4.55 R&P takes 2.53 seconds, and with the stock R&P takes maybe 3.4 seconds. As a result, it SEEMS like you have an advantage of almost a full second, because you notice when you upshift, not when you reach 50 mph. In fact, because redline occurs at a lower speed, your ACTUAL advantage is only 0.18 second.
 
Originally posted by Smoothaccel:
Here is my 2 cents about acceleration put simply without going into any calculus. With the short gears, between 0 and 110 mph acceleration, the engine spends more of it's time above 5k or higher rpm where there is more power. Hence more force is applied in the given time which results in faster acceleration.

No, you're drawing the right conclusion for the wrong reason. Remember, acceleration is a function of engine torque and gearing. The reason you have faster acceleration when the short gears reduce the shift point is because of the gearing, not because of greater engine power.

The rate of acceleration within any particular gear does not change as the revs increase, for all practical purposes. In fact, a while ago, someone posted a g-meter plot here, and it showed that the rate of acceleration is virtually constant from about 3500 RPM up to 7500 RPM. When you hit the VTEC crossover point, the engine gets louder, but acceleration (and torque) does not increase. The "magic" of VTEC is that torque (and acceleration) does not decrease.

The reason that the car seems slower after the 1-->2 upshift with the stock gears than with the short gears is because of the gearing, and the wide spacing between the first and second gear ratios - NOT because the engine makes less power at lower revs. (It does indeed make less power, but it does not make less torque, and torque is what matters for acceleration within a particular gear. For a discussion of the relevance of torque and horsepower for acceleration, click here.) The engine revs after the upshift matter (and acceleration is slower) because they are a reflection of the difference in gearing, not because the engine doesn't have enough force (torque) at the lower revs.

Hope that makes sense.

Originally posted by Smoothaccel:
NSXTASY's point is true on the track where your acceleration and speed is relative to where you are on the track or the track that you are on. Hence, taller gears will work better on higher speed tracks and shorter gears will work better on windy, low speed tracks.

Ummm... that's not exactly true either. Let's go back to the point that Jimbo was making - that shorter gearing (overall) is always faster than taller gearing. Now, how is this best achieved? Again, keeping in mind our assumptions of a flat torque curve and uniform drivetrain losses, what this means is that, on the track, you want the shortest gearing overall (including selectable gears and R&P) that you can get. And this is achieved by being in the lowest gear possible at all points around the track. That is a given, as far as selecting your shift points.

When it comes to which set of gears is going to give you shorter overall gearing as you go around the track, as you rightly say, that depends. If you had a track in which your speed varied between 72 and 81 mph all the way around, you would be better off with the stock R&P, which would allow you to be in second gear all the way around, not with the 4.55 R&P, which would force you to be in third gear all the way around. Similarly, if you had a track in which your speed varied between 81 and 101 mph, you would be better off with the 4.55 R&P, which would give you better acceleration in third gear than the stock R&P in third gear. Bottom line is that the gearing that gives you the shorter overall gearing at the speeds you normally go will be the best solution on the track - on all tracks - just like it is on the street. However, depending on the speeds for a given track, some tracks will achieve the shorter gearing with the stock gearsets, while others will do so with the modded gearsets. And it's not always the higher speed tracks or the lower speed tracks - it depends on which "speed band" a particular track favors.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Ken,

Word games? No word games, just physics.

We were talking about acceleration and NOT which gears would be "faster" on the 1/4 mile or from 0-60. I never said or implied anything about which setup would be "faster" under any particular conditions.

The shift points will of course be different but the acceleration at any given point in any comparable gear will always be greater for the lower (higher numeric) gears.

I, of course, did point out the "shifting sooner" issue and how that might affect the time it would take to reach a certain speed. However, once again, we were talking about acceleration and not time-to-speed.

You also wrote in the last post...

Let's go back to the point that Jimbo was making - that shorter gearing (overall) is always faster than taller gearing.

No, that's NOT the point I was making at all. I never said shorter gearing is always faster than taller gearing. That's your mis-interpretation of my words. Again, I (and you) were talking about acceleration.

Must you always be so rude and accusatory?

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html

[This message has been edited by Jimbo (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
We were talking about acceleration and NOT which gears would be "faster" on the 1/4 mile or from 0-60. I never said or implied anything about which setup would be "faster" under any particular conditions.

That's odd; I thought we were trying to help kenjiMR make an informed decision regarding which gears are better for his needs, rather than a philosophical discussion of the meaning of the word "acceleration".

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Word games? No word games, just physics.

Well, I'll give you an example. Here are two statements that you have made that are going to confuse a lot of people because they sound like they contradict each other:

Originally posted by Jimbo:
the acceleration at any given point in any comparable gear will always be greater for the lower (higher numeric) gears.

Originally posted by Jimbo:
I never said shorter gearing is always faster than taller gearing.

I'm sure a lot of people cannot understand how you could make both these statements. And the only reason I can guess - sorry, but I have to guess because they sure sound contradictory to me - is that you're trying to make subtle, irrelevant distinctions between words like "faster" and "acceleration". Wouldn't it make more sense to apply the physics and show how the differences matter in different situations that kenjiMR might care about, rather than getting into these word games, or whatever term you would like to use for drawing irrelevant distinctions between semantic terms?

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Must you always be so rude and accusatory?

Must you always be so confrontational and hostile, Jimbo? Try helping people for a change, instead of responding to every post I make as an opportunity to launch yet another personal attack. For Pete's sake, Jimbo - This is a topic where we aren't even disagreeing, and once again you're attacking me and calling me names. Can't you ever maintain a civilized discussion?

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Ken,

I was indeed trying to help Kenji.

Your post implied that the acceleration gains were illusory and only "perception".

I simply pointed out, without any hostility to you, I might add, that the acceleration gains were indeed real. Nothing in my post was confrontational or mean-spirited at all.

I am also not trying to get into a semantic argument, but technical words, such as acceleration have precise and specific meanings.

You're the one who turned this thread personal with your nasty comment below...

Well, Jimbo, there you go again, trying to play your word games to make it "sound" as though one option is faster when it's not always so. Let's look at the facts and how this all works.

And then when I respond to your snide comment, you have the gall to accuse ME of being confrontational, hostile and incapable of having a civilized discussion?!

Amazing.
 
Originally posted by Jimbo:
Your post implied that the acceleration gains were illusory and only "perception".

No, it didn't. (Stop saying things that are untrue, Jimbo.) Here's what I said - and note the bold that I have added in this quote:

Originally posted by nsxtasy:
The R&P won't have much effect overall on track performance. It will be better on some tracks, worse on others.

As explained in subsequent posts, it won't make any difference at the speeds used on the track, as you're moving up and down among second/third/fourth gears in the 60-140 mph range or, on tracks with shorter straights, in the 60-110 mph range. Within those ranges, the 4.55 R&P is generally not faster than the stock R&P. There may be some tracks where it is faster, others where it is not. And the 4.55 R&P will give gains - slight gains, but gains nonetheless - but at the highest and slowest speeds, not at the speeds used on most tracks. That's what I said, as anyone can see.

Originally posted by Jimbo:
Amazing.

Amazing indeed that you take offense at such a relatively innocuous statement and use it as an excuse to launch more of your insults. And amazing that you once again misstate something I've said. Can't you ever just stick to the facts, without making yet another false accusation?

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
I love you two guys ,I've met you both and I can honestly say If stuck on an island together you would be great pals,as well as design a close facimily of the nsx with palm leaves and coconuts!Kenji: I learned the hard way that the shorties and 4.55 work well for some tracks not for others.On my next cluth refresh I will try the 4.23 rp.I do like my current settup for normal driving up to redline in 4th~128mph,If you can call my driving normal.lol.
 
Kenji,

I would seriously consider the short gears and the 4.23 R&P. I can understand if you might not want to make the jump to the 4.55.

But look at it this way...

There is a reason why Honda made these particular changes for the Type R.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
nsxtasy has explained is completely and accurately. Jimbo, you may well understand how it really works, but your statements would lead almost anyone who doesn’t understand it to the wrong conclusion. When you say something like “Acceleration (...the rate at which an object changes its velocity...) is always faster with the lower gears.” the reader can and probably will misinterpret this. The following statement is true but clearly contrary to what yours seems to state: “Acceleration (...the rate at which an object changes its velocity...) with lower gears will be greater in some speed ranges (from x mph to y mph) but less in other speed ranges.”

For your statement to be accurate, or at least understandable, would require that you include a reference to being gear specific. “Acceleration in any given gear is always faster with the lower gears.” But come on, that’s almost too obvious to point out and stressing it is guaranteed to distract the novice from the really important fact that the options are always a game of give and take from gear to gear, speed to speed.

All that said, I’m still inclined to think that the shorter R&P will more often help than hurt on road course, and this is where nsxtasy and I part. I won’t attempt to go into all the calculations, and I’ve seen the charts comparing the gearing options, but I’ve driven enough and crewed enough to believe that the 11% bonus in every gear more than offsets the downside. Sure, there will be individual corners and even whole tracks where you’ll wish you had the old ratio, but with no specific knowledge of a given track, I’ll play the odds and take the shorter diff every time. So here I agree with Jimo as he referred to the Type R. There was nothing magical performance wise about Honda’s selection of the R&P ratio for US spec cars. They needed something that matched with the transmission yields a good compromise between acceleration and cruising.

But, is it where I'd spend my money on a street car sometimes used on the track? Nope, too much $ for too little, and too buzzy on the street.

[This message has been edited by sjs (edited 23 September 2002).]
 
Originally posted by kenjiMR:
I would like opinions from primarily track junkies who drive their cars very aggressively and have track/racing experience. I realize each gearing combination would depend on the types of tracks you attend. I currently consider Thunderhill my home track and would like gearing that is most suited for it.

Kenji,

As I'm sure you're aware, I have driven in a lot of track events (well over one hundred). One thing I've found is that appropriate shifting can make a significant difference in lap times. And gearing can affect shifting dramatically. We have a track near here called GingerMan. It has ten turns and is 1.8 miles long. It has relatively short straights. When I drive it in my stock geared '91 NSX, I upshift and downshift between second and third five times each lap. When I drive it in my ITR, I leave it in third all the way around, because I run out of revs in second gear before track-out at every turn, so there's not much benefit. I point this out, not to compare the ITR with the NSX, but only to note that shifting can provide a significant benefit, but only when deliberately chosen for the places where it provides the most benefit.

However, I am not sure whether you are better off with a gearset that requires more shifting or less shifting. Let's make up an example of a track where your speed is varying from 60 to 80 mph all the way around the track, and assume you have a stock five-speed. If you have a stock R&P, you will leave the transmission in second gear all the way around the track. If you have a 4.55 R&P, you will be doing a lot of shifting, to keep it in second gear from 60 to 72 mph, and upshift to third where you will be from 72 to 80 mph. In this situation, is one "better" than the other, i.e. will produce quicker lap times? I'm not sure. One will accelerate faster in the slower portions, and the other faster in the faster portions. I think that overall, the differences will be relatively minor.

The differences between the various gearsets are very easily quantified. You can check the numbers and see for yourself which ones do better at the speeds you're most interested in. You can take your slowest and fastest speeds as you do a lap of Thunderhill and see which gearset has the advantage within that range. (If you let me know these speeds, I'll be happy to give you Bob Butler's calculated acceleration numbers for the gearsets you're considering.)

I think your best bet would be to see if you can catch rides with other NSXers around that track, particularly the experienced instructors, hopefully driving different NSXs with the gearsets you're considering. Watch where they shift, and see if you think it might work for you. If you have the opportunity, see if you can drive their cars for a few laps, and see how you like it. Do the same for driving around the street.

Also keep in mind that perception thing. You may find that you like to reach redline sooner by lowering the shift points, regardless of how much actual difference in performance that represents. If you do, then go for the shorter gearing.

My personal opinion is that, if money were no object, I would probably choose the following gearsets, in order of preference starting with the most preferred:

1. Six speed, 4.55 R&P
2. Six speed, 4.235 R&P (I'm not sure this is even feasible)
3. Six speed, 4.062 R&P
4. Short gears five speed, 4.235 R&P
5. Short gears five speed, 4.062 R&P
6. Stock gears five speed, 4.235 R&P
7. Stock gears five speed, 4.062 R&P
8. Short gears five speed, 4.55 R&P
9. Stock gears five speed, 4.55 R&P

However, the actual performance differences among any of these options are too minor to be worth the cost to do so, so for that reason, I wouldn't bother. Just my personal O.

[This message has been edited by nsxtasy (edited 24 September 2002).]
 
sjs,

I would be glad to explain my comments. I understand there's a lot of potential for confusion on this topic and it's also why I made my original comments.

Acceleration is precisely defined as the rate at which an object changes its velocity. Acceleration is what's responsible for pushing you back into the seat. Changing your final drive gear ratio will have a direct and very real affect on acceleration.

It's this real effect that people notice and rave about when they install a higher numerical gear ratio. The car accelerates faster. It pushes them back into the seat and they like it. You can do a search on this and see that this is so.

Ken's statements that the shift points come sooner is accurate; and it might indeed play some role in giving a false impression that the vehicle is performing better than the actual numbers might otherwise indicate. But this has nothing to do with acceleration, which was all that my original statement covered.

My point was simple and I certainly didn't mean for this to get out of hand, or to be accused of playing word games.
frown.gif


If we want to discuss the more general track-street pros/cons of this topic, as I've written earlier, I think the best answer on this topic can be found in the actual NSX Type R. In designing this special track/road car, Honda saw fit to switch to the short gears and the 4.23 R&P.

I am quite sure Honda did not make these changes to their 5 speed model for simply a perceived or questionable benefit.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
"Faster" refers to relative absolute speed at a given moment in time;
"Quicker" refers to relative acceleration (or rate of change of speed) at a given moment in time.
It needs to be noted that acceleration is not constant over a range of speed, but can vary at any given instant. Typically acceleration numbers are the average over a finite period of time.
 
First, I want to apologize to kenjiMR for straying from the original thread.

nsxtasy, let me see if I get what you are saying:

Quote 1:
"acceleration is a function of engine torque and gearing." doesn't "gearing" allow the car to be in a particular part of the powerband but you say acceleration is constant regardless of where you are on the powerband between 3500 and 7500 rpm
Quote 2:
"meter plot here, and it showed that the rate of acceleration is virtually constant from about 3500 RPM up to 7500 RPM."
I find this hard to digest. An example: If I understand what you are saying, Since the torque/acceleration is the same/constant between 3500 and 7500, two identical cars (NSX) would have no advantage/disadvantage if one were to stay in the powerband of 3500 to 5500 and the other 5500 to 7500 ?!?. Imagine that. Now, remember this pertains to my initial statement of the short gears being faster from 0 to 110 i.e. through all gears (1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th?,.) because most of the time that it travels to 110 it will be above 5k rpm.

I mostly agree and understand most of your posts but this one I am having trouble understanding your logic and the physics of the whole thing. Maybe I am still looking at it wrong after reading it twice?!

I will be very convinced and very shocked if the car (NSX) using the powerband of 5500 to 7500 not get to 110mph from 0 ~before~ the NSX using the powerband of 3500 to 5500.
 
D'Ecosse,

When it comes to "faster" and "quicker" I don't believe there's any universally accepted definition, but I would agree with your terms.

If one car is faster than another...to me that would mean that one car went 160 MPH and the other went 140 MPH.

For me, "quicker" implies acceleration...or how fast my speedometer needle is moving, or how my accelerometer is reacting.

This is a topic where there's a lot of non-intuitive things going on. Time vs distance vs acceleration vs speed... and it's not always easy to grasp. Subtle things like why is it that the car with the fastest trap time at the drag strip doesn't always turn the best time for example.

-Jim

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1992 NSX Red/Blk 5 spd #0330
1991 NSX Blk/Blk Auto #3070 (Sold)
1974 Vette 454 4 spd Wht/Blk
http://homepage.mac.com/jimanders/PhotoAlbum1.html
 
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