State of the art brakes...Or snakeoil ?

[KGP]

I am not a sales person for ZMI nor am I the right person to argue the way ZMI's work. Maybe you can call Mike at ZMI and ask some of the questions you have and post the reply here.

Andrie: You ought to give Mike a call. I know I would love to hear your opinion after you talked with him. You may well be right in that they might not be the setup you would use on your race car, but at present we don't know for sure. I talked with him for some time, and everythign he told me made sense. Heck, I'd love to see you with a set for test purposes under race conditions.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

Gene,

I might give them a call. However, from what I gather, the idea seem to be very good. Brilliant if I may so. I just find it hard to believe nobody from top race team or top brake manufacturer never venture to titanium rotors. Titanium is not new materials. They been used for numerous automotive application. As far as cost, I don't think it is an issue for the top team or brake manufacturer. Heck, the carbon and ceramic rotors cost much more.

As far as testing, I'm too chicken to test that myself. Can't imagine what's gonna happen if the brake failed at triple digit speed.

If someone else willing to test it and give empirical data, I would be the first one to jump in the bandwagon.

 

[AJKS]

Gene,

I might give them a call. However, from what I gather, the idea seem to be very good. Brilliant if I may so. I just find it hard to believe nobody from top race team or top brake manufacturer never venture to titanium rotors. Titanium is not new materials. They been used for numerous automotive application. As far as cost, I don't think it is an issue for the top team or brake manufacturer. Heck, the carbon and ceramic rotors cost much more.

As far as testing, I'm too chicken to test that myself. Can't imagine what's gonna happen if the brake failed at triple digit speed.

If someone else willing to test it and give empirical data, I would be the first one to jump in the bandwagon.

If any of you are able to e-mail me when and were the next track event is near Nashville TN, and we could get some of you from Prime there, I will be happy to be there. I would like to settle the debate once and for all. I do not think you will see any type of failure from the ZMI's.

 

[Andrie Hartanto]

AJKS,

not to try to offend you, but what is your skill level? Some people can do perfectly fine with stock brakes at the track, while others won't even last for one session.

Another thing is I'm not bashing ZMI. In fact, I'm very intrigued. Like I said, if this proven to be as good as they say, I will definitely be very interested.

 

[titaniumdave]

ZMI brakes

AJKS,
Those brakes are damn cool. How many miles do you have on them and are you getting any discoloration on the front rotors? I am wondering if these would be a good match on the rear for my front Brembos? I just can't imagine the expense of replacing the rotor if they wear quickly. Most titaniums are not very good for abrasion resistance and I wonder how their treatment process holds up over time. Titanium oxide is very hard and could resist many brake pad compounds, how many different compounds do they offer?

Keep us posted on how they hold up over time.

Dave

 

[KGP]

Re: ZMI brakes

I just can't imagine the expense of replacing the rotor if they wear quickly. Most titaniums are not very good for abrasion resistance and I wonder how their treatment process holds up over time.

The rotors have a life-time warranty. As it was explained to me, the key to using Ti in the rotor design is from the coating applied to it. My understanding is that is becomes fused with the titanium and alters the characteristics of it. Anyone interested should give them a call, because tossing around the "whats" and "ifs" here don't do much good uness you know more about the system, and because it is so propritetary, that info needs to come from ZMI.

 

[titaniumdave]

I am swapping e-mails with ZMI. I am interested in a real life experience and what an end user has found. I have asked ZMI for a contact who has been using the brakes but I have not heard back yet, it was the weekend though.

ZMI does have the rear application(with parking brake) I am talking about, so far they have not mentioned any warrenty, the website states 'these may be the last rotors you ever buy', which sounds good to me!

 

[KGP]

I am interested in a real life experience and what an end user has found.

Me too. I think that's the only way that all of us can be assured of performance. I think it's in ZMI's best interest to give some to someone like Andrie, who could really put them through a test. I use Andrie as an example. I too would have reservations in strapping them on for a race, but someone with his capability, who could go out and toss a car around hard for a few weekends is what I would want to see for results. That said, the list price is far too much for what I would pay. If they worked very good (along with the given weight reduction and warranty), I would be willing to pay more, but not what they ask for list price.

ZMI does have the rear application(with parking brake)

That's one things that's pretty cool. The ebrake is not a separate piece. Rather, it is functionality built into the rear calipers.

so far they have not mentioned any warrenty

I can't say I remember word for word what was told to me, but I distinctly remember discussing the warranty, and it was lifetime that I was told. I asked about conditions, etc., and from what I recall they have no caveats or issue hidden in fine print. Bottom line, a rotor wears out, you get a new one. My caveat is that I never went far enough to actually read a written warranty statement.

 

[Arata]

The Discs are warrantied for life, but not for crash damage or other non use abuse.
The pads that are used are the same as used on an iron disc so many of the brands you use now will fit.

I am going to try a set, if anyone else would like to send me an email ([email protected]) and we can get a better price on multiple sets.

About 4 to 5 weeks lead time from when the order is placed until they are done.

 

[titaniumdave]

Here is what Mike at ZMI had to say:
" Yes, if the rotors do wear out we will replace them.

The coating is a combination of alloys such aluminite and is sprayed on. It is definitely not a ceramic. Temp will hit about 1000 degrees when pushed really hard and thats a front rotor."

Here is a glowing review of a set on a BMW:
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=193140&page=4&pp=25&hi
ghlight=zmi+brakes

These are pretty cool, ARATA, what kind of prices are you talking?

 

[G_Man_Max]

Guys,

Thanks for all the information its really usefull,
Not sure about all your opinions but the ZMI that I indicated that had been discussed in my opening post seems just as contentious now as it was origionally.

I had seen the vented alcon caliper, I think something similar was tried on the new Mercedes/Brabus before they picked there new system with SGL carbon.

Personally I think the ZMI looks really interesting, and the reason I mentioned the new delphi system was that it looks like the same Idea but with twin rotors for double the surface area which will both improve torsional braking coefficiects of the "system" and with larger surface area will improve the ability of the "system" to radiate off heat.

However with reducing rotational mass also being a strongly beneficial advantage its fairly clear that if one ZMI rotor can do the jub sufficiently well then why would we require two ?

The interesting thing for me is the materials side, if it can work with any pad compound it must have the same or similar operating frictional performance as a traditional rotor , this surprises me that there isn't a specific pad designed for the titanium alloy rotor as usually different materials will interact differently and I wouldn't have thought that the traditional pad compounds would be the absolute optimal solution.

With significant development in ceramic and carbon-carbon technologies and radically different pad compounds in use for them not too mention the problems Porshe et all are having, wheer do we think the technology is going ?

Are we ready for carbon yet ?
As an aside did you know the only reason the Maclaren F1 wasn't under 1000 KG is that they couldn't get the carbon brakes to work properly so late one night Gorden Murrey sneaked back into their devolopment offices and quietly rewrote the "set in stone" design criteria as 1018KG !

Would the ideal solution ( obviously not yet available) be a ceramic or carbon composite single rotor design much like the ZMI with a single caliper or some sort of multiplate disk pack with very lightweight thin disc rotors and multiple contact points on both sides of each plate ?

Thanks to NSXtasy for listing out every brake fluid very usefull. Tip as previously mentioned however shows motul 600 or neo super dot definately the picks of the crop in price performance.

For the Guys trying ZMI do you have an estimated street price for the complete setup ? Is it under the Race Brembos 10K US$ price ?

Did you intend to adjust bias proprotioning and do they fit under the 16"/17" wheels ?


Best regards to all.

Max

 

[zmibrakes]

Hmmm.. where to begin? Well, I'm glad to see some open minded discussions about the brakes. That what these forums are all about.

Racing- some tracks and some sanctioning bodies don't allow Ti rotors to be used. Hence why you won't hear a lot about them on race cars... if they are using them, they probably don't want people to know. Also, as many of you have discussed, there are brakes made for racing and brakes for street cars. The ZMI system is made for street cars that spend some time on the track such as club events. Just like brake pads different compounds for different uses. While Im sure there are some people that want the same brakes as an F1 car, we all know it's overkill and even they were available they'd be outrageous. My point, just because the ZMIs aren't used by McLaren or Williams doesn't mean they won't work on your car.

Ti rotors- Other brake manufacturers don't have the coating technology we do. This coating allows us to use regular pad compounds that are used on cast iron because the coating co-ef of friction is similar to that of cast iron. True uncoated ti does need special pads as well as carbon.

Pricing- Yep, they are pricey, no doubt... again, as people here discussed the cost of the ceramic such as are porsche system are really expensive and they will wear out and have to be replaced... yet, people still continue to buy them. Just like carbon rotors, the cost is in the ti rotor.. a lot of time, a lot enegy as compared to cast iron. Yes, compared to cast iron, it's expensive, compared to carbon, not so much. Kind of like how we're all sitting around and talking about NSX's not RSX's.

Lastly, while I'm sure it might help, giving product away for testing doesn't sit well with me... there are people out there such as AJKS who have used their hard earned money to purchase these brakes and they work just fine.. I don't think its fair to those customers if I give product to people just reiterate the fact that they do work. I hope people can understand my view.

These are meant to enhance your cars performance. That's why I'm here and that's what I want to do. As we continue to move forward, hopefully we can create more products to meet the different needs of various customers. I definitely want to create the best product that I can and I hope with your support and constructive opinions, I will be able to do that.

Mike @ ZMI Brake Systems

 

[nsx1164]

Is there a 4-wheel fitment for the NSX, presumably using the smaller 100-series ZMI 2-pot caliper ? Rears with optional parking brake (?).

Alternately, a rear set of 13" rotors can be used with the OE rear caliper, similar to the AP Racing BBK sold by RM/SoS.

The current "application/fitment" guide on the ZMI website only lists a 'front only' fitment for the NSX

#############

Presumably the 13" rotors require a minimum 17" wheel diameter ?? Also, will the larger (largest?) 300-series 4-pot caliper work with the NSX, instead of the 200-series one listed on your website ?

 

[nsxtasy]

Is there a 4-wheel fitment for the NSX

That setup would be extreme overkill for the rear.

Unless you want it for the bling bling, of course...

 

[titaniumdave]

Overkill for braking, but sure save a lot of weight, rotating(20lb.) and unsprung(20 lb.)! That is usable performance, not including how much lighter your wallet would be !

 

[nsx1164]

That setup would be extreme overkill for the rear.

Not really... I've found that with my setup, using the OE caliper on a larger 13" rear rotor helps balance out the braking, with the AP caliper up front.

Several folks with larger FRONT brakes and pre-97 cars have gone a similar route, although it seems the newer cars (97+) have a big enough REAR brake to suffice.

What ZMI has told me (in PM) is that they DO have a 4-wheel setup, website to be updated:
- front with 13" rotors and 4-pot 300 series caliper
- rear with 13" rotors and 2-pot 100 series caliper with e-brake

Note that 13" rotors DO require a minimum 17" wheel diameter.

 

[nsxtasy]

I have yet to hear of anyone - ANYONE - running into the kinds of heat-related problems in the rear that are the main reason for upgrading the front brakes.

As for those bigger 13" rear rotors with stock calipers making a difference, I hear they are a big seller at Placebo Motorsports.

 

[Ojas]

Does anyone know if ZMI is still around? Their website has been down for at least several weeks and their phone number does not work.

 

[AJKS]

Does anyone know if ZMI is still around? Their website has been down for at least several weeks and their phone number does not work.

Ojas
Mike at ZMI closed the retail shop down. He has had a few personal issues and is pursuing other business ops. He still supports the current ZMI owners. He just sent me a set of new designed rotors that are a bit different from the original design. If you are asking about a set for your NSX, I will see about Mike getting in touch with you. His engineer still has a shop and puts out the brake sets as needed.
PM me your contact info and I will forward it to Mike.

AJKS

 

[Auraraptor]

I would get these brakes in a heartbeat if I could answer 2 questions:

1. Will the coating wear off, leaving only the low-coefficent Ti?

2. Will the brake fluid temperature remain the same between OE and a ZMI kit?

If I could do back to back testing comparing brake fluid and pad temperatures I would get these brakes in a heartbeat and promote them to the Ferrari crowd.

I am hesitant to spend $7/8k and find that my brake fluid and pad temperatures are much higher then OE. The way it is my brake system is sensitive to high brake fluid temperatures.

 

[Veleno]

As far as I remember ZMI is no longer in business or doesn't offer the brakes anymore. I know of only 1 NSX owner who has the Ti setup and it looks bad ass!

 

[Juice]

While this is true (notice you brought up a thread from 2004!!), I believe that Barnman was offering this kit not long ago.

 

[Auraraptor]

That would explain why when I tried to do research into the brakes, I could not find anything...not even a website.:tongue: