spring recommendations please

I'm leaning toward the Dali .875 rear instead of the Zanardi because although $50 more, it is adjustable and the zanardi isn't? anyone think I won't need that feature?

God this is costing a lot... first it was the suspension, then the bushings from tidave to complete it... then a VRH so I can clear things... then new springs, now new sways... WTF!!! :biggrin:


Dave, Dave, Dave ........ you and I have had this conversation before, but take my suggestion in gist and for what it is worth - i.e., not much :eek::wink:

But I am posting this for the benefit of others as well (mostly newbies) who seem to ask similar questions.

From all "your" (generic you) posts thus far, it is obvious that you like to keep your car as much as a garage queen as possible albeit you also like to "exercise" it. So let's put this into perspective. All theories of suspension dynamics aside, I bet you most likely will never drive your car at its 10/10; most likely closer to 7.5/10 or 8/10 - otherwise after two track days you will be crying over all the rock chips and cracked windshield :biggrin:

So, all the questions about the nuances between sway bars and spring rates are for the benefit of going from say 7.5/10 to perhaps 9.5/10 and this assumes one has maxed out on one's talent :tongue:

To be perfectly candid, I was of the mindset that by adding mods to my NSX I could compensate what I didn't have in talent compared to better drivers. There is truism to this but up to a limit for non-racers. Adjustability is great, but I soon found out that even with about 10 track days a year, I really had no interest in continually tinkering with adjustments for different ambient temps, tracks, or other considerations. I preferred finding and driving within the limits on that day than to maximize what adjustability I had. Once I found a relatively comfortable setting I stayed with it with minor adjustments to tire pressures as needed. The additional nuances of the mods "may" give you better handling so you can worry less when you are pushing yourself first and then the NSX, but in the end, more often than people want to admit, the limitation is the "self" and not the mods or the car especially for non pro-racers. And by "self" it is not necessarily raw talent, but also one's reflexes, the mindset as in whether you have other considerations (family, business obligations etc) that don't allow you to take full "advantage of managed risk" at the track in a particular NSX.

Unless you are willing to push your NSX to its limits and find out the slip angle and the potential consequences of such a mishap in your prized still wanna-remain garage queen NSX, all the details about a track bar vs mixing trophy with Zanardi or any other combination, and whether the spring rate differential should be 400 or 375 - all based on your driving style on a given day on a particular track, etc. all this discussion is nice - in theory/concept - but marginal at one's tolerance limits given the above provisions. Sure some are proven/tested to be better options - but within certain parameters of the total package at hand.

I am not saying don't maximize the benefit of asking, and learning from the inputs of others (racers to weekend warriors of all kind); but at some point it really doesn't matter much for we are all saying similar things within a range of settings. Until "you" test what mods you have (preferably one at a time so you can see the the pros/cons of each change) on the track and street you won't know whether you like it or not based on your driving style/risk tolerance and road conditions.

While mixing and matching is being discussed, you should also keep in mind that minor changes do make difference without mixing so keep that advantage as well. Just as an FYI, when I went from street tires to track tires I had to adjust my rear adjustable "street/track" sway bar by just one hole and I could immediately see the difference. So even on such a street/track bar you could tell the impact of one hole. Since then I have gone to track bars (full stiff front with Type R bars, and middle hole in the rear etc) ...... Now, the only other adjustment I do to the suspension is to the Comptech Pro damper where I stiffen it by two/three clicks when I am on track tires for track and loosen for street driving with street tires. On a cold track day, I may even leave it at the softer setting.

Kip drove my car and he said it was well balanced - especially for my use/needs. Am I the fastest that I can be? No. My daughter said Kip was driving it faster than I was and Kip was not at 10/10; perhaps only 9.7/10 :biggrin: Do I care that he was faster in my NSX? Heck no; but it gives me the confidence that I am not off in my settings - based on seeing what others had done before me and also trial and error. But I know when the car's rear wiggles or my brain asks "do you really want to 'risk' knowing whether you can or should .... " I have reached my comfort zone. And I am perfectly at ease with this even if a totally stock NSX or a Miata passes me :wink:

YMMV.
 
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Hrant I read your post like 3 times, I am not quite sure I understand what the main point is. I never said anything other than I am aware that on the track the weakest link is still me, not the car. That's why I went to skip barber and why I continue to try to improve, but at my own pace. I am also not doing any of this because I think I will be faster. If that's all I cared about I'd just sell the car and buy a GT-R and look like a pro on the track with minimal knowledge. That's not my thing.

When you get parts for your car, you should try to do it right. Clearly the Competition setup is more than what I can utilize to its potential, but still, this is a setup that can give me very good control, handling on the track and ride on the street. So I am trying to get feedback from people more experienced than myself on what the best setup they think will be. I feel lucky to have Billy here... so why not ask him? What is best for "me" doesn't matter all that much to me because I am not even there to know. So I prefer to just get some advice on a properly setup car, even if it isn't perfectly tuned to my application. I can always tweak later, but I have to start some place.
 
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Ah, yes the issue of the main point of my post! In my lengthy and convoluted way, what I was attempting to say is that it really doesn't matter much at the margins regarding which way you go as long as you are within the the "range" ... :eek::biggrin:

Sounding like a broken record here, there is no "best set-up" as that depends on the perspective of the person making the recommendation to you - which in turn is based on his/her driving style which may or may not suit "you" but may be perfectly fine with the NSX's suspension envelope for yet undefined mixed street/track use. I believe you are looking for the latter - the best possible suspension envelope for an NSX-T given what you already purchased. Billy's recommendation will indeed give you the best "sized" envelope given the mix and match that you are contemplating to also change. He has a wealth of info on such matters. I was merely noting the former; i.e., that the "contents" of the letter that goes into an envelope better dictates the best envelope. Since you have already purchased the KW3, my comments really matters less.

---- expanding on the margins in here ............

For example, some like to have a much freer back-end and don't mind being at the edge constantly feeding throttle and steering inputs, while others like it neutral, and yet others still prefer a bit of understeer. Some like to charge hard into a turn and trail-brake while others try to stabilize the suspension at or before turn in and use the throttle/steering to power out. Some set-ups are better geared for street tires some for track tires. And all may end up logging the same +/- lap times as non-racers! And the irony is that this can happen with the same set-up by simply fine tuning the sway bars and/or tire pressures, or with a totally different set-up. Your choice.

Often, when I read people offering advice, they rarely identify all the parameters surrounding their advice or the ones the party seeking advice should be asking - hence why Billy rightfully always asks what else you have (from alignment to all the other details/specs that affect the handling).

I tend to start with an a priori question of what is your end goal as the first step to structuring a response. Your additional suspension set-up tweaks matter only at the margin of these issues if and when you are pushing to 10/10. Anything in the range of 7-8/10 can be handled by any of the "reputable" vendors/offerings on the market - irrespective of marketing product hype. Heck, the Bilsteins or Konis with progressive springs and street/track adjustable sway bars is a great set-up for most "occasional trackers." And yes some products can handle such tweaks slightly better and with more ease than others. The more advanced products offer opportunity for more fine tuning if you are really going to push the car beyond the 7/-8/10. And the selection options have become a matter of brand/bragging preference, convenience - ease of getting them, price, and of course who can support/tune the product afterward. Many of the old timers who are still holding their own on the track with their streetable NSXs are running on the now much less mentioned Comptech Pro, or the Type-R suspensions (the latter good for passing kidney stones too LOL!). Perhaps these products have lost their marketing cache' or appeal with the influx of new aftermarket products with all the adjustability variants and gizmos. If one has the time and patience to tinker this is great.

Dave, you - and the rest of us - are indeed lucky to have Billy give his first hand experiences. Perhaps retaining Billy for a day at the track to help you and others tune your NSXs - from whatever baseline you all choose (as long as it has that adjustability) to your driving needs is the best value of them all - that is if Billy is still available :wink:
 
Dave, you - and the rest of us - are indeed lucky to have Billy give his first hand experiences. Perhaps retaining Billy for a day at the track to help you and others tune your NSXs - from whatever baseline you all choose (as long as it has that adjustability) to your driving needs is the best value of them all - that is if Billy is still available :wink:

LOL... believe me I am trying. I would love to do an HPDE with him as my instructor and am willing to travel to where he is.

BTW I don't have KW3's. I have KW competitons. They are very different. If I had 3's I wouldn't need to ask all these questions. LOL.
 
+1...well said Hrant, well said.

Dave, Dave, Dave ........ you and I have had this conversation before, but take my suggestion in gist and for what it is worth - i.e., not much :eek::wink:

But I am posting this for the benefit of others as well (mostly newbies) who seem to ask similar questions.

From all "your" (generic you) posts thus far, it is obvious that you like to keep your car as much as a garage queen as possible albeit you also like to "exercise" it. So let's put this into perspective. All theories of suspension dynamics aside, I bet you most likely will never drive your car at its 10/10; most likely closer to 7.5/10 or 8/10 - otherwise after two track days you will be crying over all the rock chips and cracked windshield :biggrin:

So, all the questions about the nuances between sway bars and spring rates are for the benefit of going from say 7.5/10 to perhaps 9.5/10 and this assumes one has maxed out on one's talent :tongue:

To be perfectly candid, I was of the mindset that by adding mods to my NSX I could compensate what I didn't have in talent compared to better drivers. There is truism to this but up to a limit for non-racers. Adjustability is great, but I soon found out that even with about 10 track days a year, I really had no interest in continually tinkering with adjustments for different ambient temps, tracks, or other considerations. I preferred finding and driving within the limits on that day than to maximize what adjustability I had. Once I found a relatively comfortable setting I stayed with it with minor adjustments to tire pressures as needed. The additional nuances of the mods "may" give you better handling so you can worry less when you are pushing yourself first and then the NSX, but in the end, more often than people want to admit, the limitation is the "self" and not the mods or the car especially for non pro-racers. And by "self" it is not necessarily raw talent, but also one's reflexes, the mindset as in whether you have other considerations (family, business obligations etc) that don't allow you to take full "advantage of managed risk" at the track in a particular NSX.

Unless you are willing to push your NSX to its limits and find out the slip angle and the potential consequences of such a mishap in your prized still wanna-remain garage queen NSX, all the details about a track bar vs mixing trophy with Zanardi or any other combination, and whether the spring rate differential should be 400 or 375 - all based on your driving style on a given day on a particular track, etc. all this discussion is nice - in theory/concept - but marginal at one's tolerance limits given the above provisions. Sure some are proven/tested to be better options - but within certain parameters of the total package at hand.

I am not saying don't maximize the benefit of asking, and learning from the inputs of others (racers to weekend warriors of all kind); but at some point it really doesn't matter much for we are all saying similar things within a range of settings. Until "you" test what mods you have (preferably one at a time so you can see the the pros/cons of each change) on the track and street you won't know whether you like it or not based on your driving style/risk tolerance and road conditions.

While mixing and matching is being discussed, you should also keep in mind that minor changes do make difference without mixing so keep that advantage as well. Just as an FYI, when I went from street tires to track tires I had to adjust my rear adjustable "street/track" sway bar by just one hole and I could immediately see the difference. So even on such a street/track bar you could tell the impact of one hole. Since then I have gone to track bars (full stiff front with Type R bars, and middle hole in the rear etc) ...... Now, the only other adjustment I do to the suspension is to the Comptech Pro damper where I stiffen it by two/three clicks when I am on track tires for track and loosen for street driving with street tires. On a cold track day, I may even leave it at the softer setting.

Kip drove my car and he said it was well balanced - especially for my use/needs. Am I the fastest that I can be? No. My daughter said Kip was driving it faster than I was and Kip was not at 10/10; perhaps only 9.7/10 :biggrin: Do I care that he was faster in my NSX? Heck no; but it gives me the confidence that I am not off in my settings - based on seeing what others had done before me and also trial and error. But I know when the car's rear wiggles or my brain asks "do you really want to 'risk' knowing whether you can or should .... " I have reached my comfort zone. And I am perfectly at ease with this even if a totally stock NSX or a Miata passes me :wink:

YMMV.
 
I'm wondering if I should hold off on sway bars until I get my coilovers installed and see how the 1000/600 is to live with? If I change the coilovers and sway bars at once, I won't really know what I don't like.

If I find it too stiff with my current thinner R bar and factory rear bar, then clearly I won't like the 1.25" trophy bar alongside those same springs. So then the proceedure would to to change springs to softer ones and if it's acceptable, step up the sway bars. I was about to order bars then I thought "hold off"...

Does this make sense?
 
^ Agree! Do one at a time.

Do realize that your current sway bars are not adjustable - hence the dilemma you are facing. And from Dali's website, regarding the trophy:

Straight & hollow 1.125" front swaybar 600%+ stiffer than OEM, with Aluminum bushings, powdercoated red. Welded on lateral locating collars included, adjustable. Fits 1991-2005. The later year cars might need some fiddling to fit - it is a track car - get used to "fiddling". You be a track god with these! [works for me anyway] WILL NOT FIT WITH THE SPARE TIRE. BEYOND STIFF.
 
Yes, had to cut the front corners off the battery tray some was all.

Coz, did you have to do any "fiddling" to get the trophy bar to fit?
If so, what did you have to do to get it to fit?
 
Bringin this thread back from the dead.........

Hoping you can offer me some advice ......

We are ready to make our first setup runs of our new NSX and we are running some Motons. 3 Way adjustable.

I am running Dali trophy swaybars front and rear, Hoosier R6 in 295x30x18 rear and 245x35x18 front.

We have a APR GT500 rear wing, Taitec rear diffuser, we have made a front splitter and flat bottom through the middle also.

I'm only mentioning all this so you have a reasonable picture of what we've got.

SDC11062.jpg

SDC11055.jpg

SDC11063.jpg


My question is where should I be looking at for a base setup for spring rates ?? I am leaning towards 1000lb/in rear and 600lb/in front....... that too high considering the larger bars ?? I really think I need to be closer to 700 or 800 fronts.

I have 500 - 600 - 900 and 1000 lb/in no 700 or 800 at the moment, but can get some if needed / suggested.....

Any advice you can offer around the Hoosier R6's, spring rates and general setup would be massively appreciated.

Obviously I'm not asking for a miracle setup, just where you think is a sensible base to start from.
 
Frasier, I think you need to turn that around and go 1000 front and 600 rear. Is that a typo or did you really mean 600 front and 1000 rear? Comptech uses 1000/600 F/R. Billy Johnson's FXMD NSX ran KW 3 ways with 1000 front, 600 rear, and the Dali trophies.

I am not even sure you need that rear trophy bar.. but to have that thick bar rear and 1000 in the rear too seems wrong for the NSX.

I'll let the pros chime in but I asked A LOT of questions before settling on the 1000/600 combo. As stiff as that is, with the Motorsport dampers the ride is very compliant. I mean you don't street this beast so it doesnt matter but it won't lose grip and jolt around if you hit bumps.

Hey come to think of it, I have a set of KW springs that came off an NSX from ran by a Honda race team. The car was running KW 3-ways and Movit, sponsored by those companies. Plenty of pics of it on the net. Used to run on the Nurburgring. They are about 1200 front and 900 rear. If you want to try them, I can send them to you. Just pay for the shipping.
 
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Well I've got to say that I also thought it was odd, but I had a mate who sent me an e-mail of what he runs on his Porsche GT3 (as it's the closest I could find here layout wise) and he said they run like 800 front and 1200 rear or something like that so I thought he might have got it round the wrong way......... but since I don't really know Porsche's to that level I can only assume he was right......!

Common sense would assume that as you say the heavier spring in the rear, but it wouldn't be the first time there was some smarter thinking out there that I don't get !

As I said in my post........ any and all suggestions are always welcomed !

So do we think 1000 rear and 800 fronts is a good place to start ?? Am I likely to need more than 1000lb/in as I'm going to buy some 700 and 800lb springs so I have a full range so I might as well get some 1100 and 1200 if people think that at certain tracks they might be needed.

***edit**** just re-read your post....... very kind offer, but you do realise I'm in NZ ?? If you're willing to let me have them, I am more than happy to try them....... it would be greatly appreciated. I have some 900's already so not really worth freighting those all the way here, but maybe the 1200's are worthwhile as questioned above ??
 
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Porsche GT3s do like a heavier spring in the rear, but you have to look at the wheel motion ratios not just the weight. See this article to see the difference....

http://autospeed.com.au/cms/title_Spring-and-Wheel-Rates/A_2904/article.html

And before you ask, no I don't know what the actual motion ratio of the NSX is, but that is the reason why the NSX takes a higher front spring even though the weight distribution is in the rear.
 
do yourself a favor don't emulate the porsche setup start with the 1000f 600r combo and if the car is still loose then try a thinner rear bar.
 
I have the comptech pro suspension. It came with 1000/600 springs.
I have since updated it to 1200/800 springs when I went to Hoosiers. I like this setup. There are a few other that have run the same spring rate and liked it.

Hope this helps.
 
Thanks for that, very helpful.. Is the Comptech pro suspension comparable setup wise with the Motons ?? Sounds like it might be worth me getting some 1100 and 1200 springs...........

No it's not comparable. It's based on a koni damper that's very different than your motons. You can get a lot more adjustment and stiffness from your motons, and I don't think you need to overdo it with the springs. Do a search for motoIQ fxmd nsx and read the suspension part. This car set a time attack record running similar weight and aero as your car, running 3 way KW like your motons, and it did it all on 1000/600 springs using the trophy front bar. The person you really want to talk to is billy Johnson although he seems to be on here less. The 1200 something/976 springs that came off my car were on a car that strictly raced on the nurburgring. You can see the spread in ratio is very close with front clearly stiffer. This was on a car with slicks, centerlock magnesium wheels and on a very high speed track. It might be worth it for you to try my spring setup along with the 1000/600. FWIW billy told me 1000/600 on those dampers which are very similar to yours is perfect.
 
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