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Spoon Headers???
- Thread starter takoryder
- Start date
![kyasubaru06s-img600x450-12701091808wielb95938[1].jpg](/data/attachments/54/54533-7425e28a748939c54aba0a4b3e3c4934.jpg?hash=dCXiinSJOc)
They look like they would be decent but more restrictive than other headers as it looks like they have short primaries unlike taitecs or SOS, cantrells, which have equal length long primaries, although without knowing the piping diameters and length it may be hard to say.
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exhaust_airflow_products/NSX/headers.asp
So I guess it may depend on how much you are getting them for. Maybe they are good deal depending on the price.
http://www.scienceofspeed.com/products/exhaust_airflow_products/NSX/headers.asp
So I guess it may depend on how much you are getting them for. Maybe they are good deal depending on the price.
If I was buying new headers, for the price of the comptechs I would get the Cantrells.
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CT is better.
Why is that? The Cantrells have more HP and TQ gain for less money.
Those Spoon headers look very similar to OEM NA2 headers except they don’t come with heat shields and use a flex tube instead of a ball socket joint. Personally, I’d rather buy used OEM NA2 headers even if they cost more than the Spoon headers. Or, if I wanted to spend even more money, headers with equal-length primary tubes, like those from Cantrell.
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HOW MUCH ARE THESE...
I would be interested in buying a set.
These look like they may have been engine dynoed... that is why the resemble the NA2 stock header system that is hard to beat on hp and torque gains.
FWIW - all header systems on the market were built to fit... none of which were engine dyno'ed for maximium performance.
Spoon and Mugen have made a ton of bullsh*t parts after they became the companies they are today... but during the birth of the 2... they were able to use Honda's equipment to design parts... these look superior to anything on the market... and the age of the parts confirm the quaility... that is only our opinion as always.
Please LMK if you can source a set for us.
Regards
I would be interested in buying a set.
These look like they may have been engine dynoed... that is why the resemble the NA2 stock header system that is hard to beat on hp and torque gains.
FWIW - all header systems on the market were built to fit... none of which were engine dyno'ed for maximium performance.
Spoon and Mugen have made a ton of bullsh*t parts after they became the companies they are today... but during the birth of the 2... they were able to use Honda's equipment to design parts... these look superior to anything on the market... and the age of the parts confirm the quaility... that is only our opinion as always.
Please LMK if you can source a set for us.
Regards
spoon performance products on civic are usually just "bling". i dont see it any different on the nsx.
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- 19 February 2008
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you are 100% correct on 90% of what we in the states get to swift through and buy.... notice the set of spoon headers... never offered by any retailer in the US
Spoon and Mugen flooded us with BS like oilcaps and shinny bs
Honda - b16 motor only sold in civic si's
Nissan - SR20DET / RB25DET ? and RB26DET - never installed in 1 us car... ever
Both spoon and mugen make parts that are rarley seen by us consumers...
On our K20NSX... we ditched the cnc'ed BDL 70mm t-body when we got our hands on a spoon t-body. The spoon t-body was made in the honda factory using cast factory compnents... AM T-body's stick when heat comes into play
IMHO
Regards,
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i had a mildly built civic hatchback before pushing 195whp on a 1.8L (walk evos all day) and tuned for 40+mpg highway.
not one spoon part on that car. spoon is more for blingy cosmetics. as far as performance goes, id go mugen, amuse, js racing, or some american companies actually make pretty good parts.
for those who want custom made headers, SMSP can do wonders. he can make great headers for the k series and b series. im sure he can do the same for us c series if given the opportunity.
http://www.sms-products.com/
not one spoon part on that car. spoon is more for blingy cosmetics. as far as performance goes, id go mugen, amuse, js racing, or some american companies actually make pretty good parts.
for those who want custom made headers, SMSP can do wonders. he can make great headers for the k series and b series. im sure he can do the same for us c series if given the opportunity.
http://www.sms-products.com/
I'd like a set before and after Race Wars w/ my Spoon engines. 
IMHO, there are better headers out there among US vendors. Mugen and Spoon goodies are great and all but they're nothing like what is available out now. Unless an owner is interested in brand dropping for purely cosmetic reasons, Comptech, Cantrell, LoveFab, Hytech, or SMS. And the Comptech and Cantrells are very much affordable.
IMHO, there are better headers out there among US vendors. Mugen and Spoon goodies are great and all but they're nothing like what is available out now. Unless an owner is interested in brand dropping for purely cosmetic reasons, Comptech, Cantrell, LoveFab, Hytech, or SMS. And the Comptech and Cantrells are very much affordable.
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I really dont care who makes the part... but the design of the part above has a unique feature that should outperform 100% of the headers mentioned.
Regards
Regards
On Science of Speed’s website, they state, “The Cantrell Concepts Advanced Header System is the result of 2 years of thorough exhaust testing and tuning ...” … “Numerous dyno runs were performed ...” Cantrell themselves stated the same when the exhaust was introduced: input from fluid dynamics and exhaust design experts and dyno testing to come up with the final design.
I’d hate to think that was not true.
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- 1,532
I'm sure that tons of tuning was done.. and the quality is there for sure. A dyno and an engine dyno are completely different. only an engine dyno would allow for fabrication to be changed during testing.
The headers shown (spoon apparently) look like they increased performance of the NA2 header system by creating a possible large diameter tubing (cant confirm 100% in the pic) while making the flow of the exhaust more efficent as well (one piece design).
The feature that set's themself apart from anything avaiable in the US is where the collector is located.
Regards
I think you're absolutely right. I've long been considering modifying a set of NA2 headers to something like these. Too bad we can't get these here in the U.S. but I suppose we could fab our own...
If that were the case why do aftermarket headers, Cantrell, Taitec, SOS show gains both HP and TQ on the NA2 headers? I think I would debate a lot more on changing the headers if I had an NA2, maybe if I was going FI, but for the NA1 seems like a decent mod.
There is no spoon.
I'm not an engineer, but I believe that header performance depends on the following three main factors:
1. Primary tube length (or collector position if you look at it another way)
2. Collector design
3. Primary and main tube diameters
I think the point being made here is that Spoon chose to use a NA2-style collector layout. All of the aftermarket headers place the collector further downstream and use longer primaries. If you look at the NA2, Honda does not. If, as has been suggested, Spoon had access to Honda engine dynos to tune its headers, it bears consideration that they chose to stick with the short primary layout.
As for the differences between aftermarket and NA2, they could be explained by the smoothness of the aftermarket designs compared to the OEM headers, which while better than NA1 still have several chokepoints (they are a mass-produced part after all). I would LOVE to see a back-to-back dyno of these Spoons against a Cantrell or Fujitsubo long-tube header.
1. Primary tube length (or collector position if you look at it another way)
2. Collector design
3. Primary and main tube diameters
I think the point being made here is that Spoon chose to use a NA2-style collector layout. All of the aftermarket headers place the collector further downstream and use longer primaries. If you look at the NA2, Honda does not. If, as has been suggested, Spoon had access to Honda engine dynos to tune its headers, it bears consideration that they chose to stick with the short primary layout.
As for the differences between aftermarket and NA2, they could be explained by the smoothness of the aftermarket designs compared to the OEM headers, which while better than NA1 still have several chokepoints (they are a mass-produced part after all). I would LOVE to see a back-to-back dyno of these Spoons against a Cantrell or Fujitsubo long-tube header.
So where the collector is positioned determines how long the primaries are, no? If so, then the longer primaries (all things being equal) would have better low and midrange tq which would especially benefit NA cars. Shorter primaries (if they're equal length) would do well at higher RPM. Most short headers don't have equal length primaries though and are just used to dump exhaust as quickly as possible which is great for an FI car. Very little scavenging is given or needed since the FI car is already forcing air through.
It's all give and take though just like everything else engine related. RPM range and intended use govern primary length. Engine displacement governs primary diameter. If you want, high RPM power, use shorter but still equal length primaries. Hopefully, with the Spoon, it's got a good collector w/ the right diameter.
But it's JDM so it's got to be better than everything else.
It's all give and take though just like everything else engine related. RPM range and intended use govern primary length. Engine displacement governs primary diameter. If you want, high RPM power, use shorter but still equal length primaries. Hopefully, with the Spoon, it's got a good collector w/ the right diameter.
But it's JDM so it's got to be better than everything else.
May I just say something very few people ever think about? What the factory considers good performance and what the average tuner considers good performance are completley different things.
A factory header will look for a particular power band, whereas most tuners look at the end of a dyno chart. Guys on this forum do this ALL the time. "Hey how mmany HP did you gain?". 10 HP between 7000 and 7500 RPM's may actually make the car run SLOWER than 5 HP that is gained at 3000 RPM followed by a fall further up.
The Basch Boost superchargers I have seen make over 400 HP whereas the Comptech autorotor makes closer to 350. The autorotor cars are faster.
Other than my GT-1 header, the Fujitsubo header was the most expensive header on the market. When Vancehu put his car on the dyno, 5 HP was gained at the top, torque was lost down low. But all anybody ever talks about is "this part makes 10 more HP". That doesn't really mean much. The issue is that the aftermarket people want big numbers so they can sell their stuff. The buyer wants big #'s, because well... a number is easy to understand.
I am also EXTREMELY weary of an aftermarket company that makes a product, then dyno tests it themselves, and finds gains. Guys... I've been involved directly with some aftermarket tuning companies. What everyone thinks is some scientific test with a dyno sheet as proof, is nothing but 2 guys standing in a dyno shop, one of whom makes a product he wants to sell, the other who is his buddy. Even when they don't inentionaly want to lie or mislead, this is what happens. "Oh we lost power? must be something wrong with the data. Lets re-test". Or "maybe the engine is hot, bring over that fan, lets sit for 2 hours". Enough tests are done until the desired figure is found, which even the part manufacturer feels is the "real" number.
I ran my car on 5 dynos, same engine, same gas, same similar outdoor temp, and got 318, 340, 350, 368, and 395. How can it be 318 in one place, and 395 at another? Nowadays everyone seems to test their engine on the "heartbreak dyno."
Whatever....
I think to try and get an accurate gauge on a part that makes a small HP difference is almost impossible. I can run my engine on the same dyno RIGHT NOW, 5 times, and get 5 different numbers. Yet someone makes a header, and says "this nets 16.5 HP". Truth is, no one knows what kind of difference it makes. But as long as people have cash in their wallet for a part, these numbers will appear.
Perhaps I am jaded, but I don't put stock in any of this anymore. Unless a factory race team, a car manufacturer, or someone with some SERIOUS knowledge, facilities, money, and engineering capability tells me numbers, I just take it all with a GIANT grain of salt.
I just changed my GT-one 5.0 exhaust for an ARC. The piping on the ARC is slightly bigger. Is that better on a supercharged engine? I have no idea.
A factory header will look for a particular power band, whereas most tuners look at the end of a dyno chart. Guys on this forum do this ALL the time. "Hey how mmany HP did you gain?". 10 HP between 7000 and 7500 RPM's may actually make the car run SLOWER than 5 HP that is gained at 3000 RPM followed by a fall further up.
The Basch Boost superchargers I have seen make over 400 HP whereas the Comptech autorotor makes closer to 350. The autorotor cars are faster.
Other than my GT-1 header, the Fujitsubo header was the most expensive header on the market. When Vancehu put his car on the dyno, 5 HP was gained at the top, torque was lost down low. But all anybody ever talks about is "this part makes 10 more HP". That doesn't really mean much. The issue is that the aftermarket people want big numbers so they can sell their stuff. The buyer wants big #'s, because well... a number is easy to understand.
I am also EXTREMELY weary of an aftermarket company that makes a product, then dyno tests it themselves, and finds gains. Guys... I've been involved directly with some aftermarket tuning companies. What everyone thinks is some scientific test with a dyno sheet as proof, is nothing but 2 guys standing in a dyno shop, one of whom makes a product he wants to sell, the other who is his buddy. Even when they don't inentionaly want to lie or mislead, this is what happens. "Oh we lost power? must be something wrong with the data. Lets re-test". Or "maybe the engine is hot, bring over that fan, lets sit for 2 hours". Enough tests are done until the desired figure is found, which even the part manufacturer feels is the "real" number.
I ran my car on 5 dynos, same engine, same gas, same similar outdoor temp, and got 318, 340, 350, 368, and 395. How can it be 318 in one place, and 395 at another? Nowadays everyone seems to test their engine on the "heartbreak dyno."
Whatever.... I think to try and get an accurate gauge on a part that makes a small HP difference is almost impossible. I can run my engine on the same dyno RIGHT NOW, 5 times, and get 5 different numbers. Yet someone makes a header, and says "this nets 16.5 HP". Truth is, no one knows what kind of difference it makes. But as long as people have cash in their wallet for a part, these numbers will appear.
Perhaps I am jaded, but I don't put stock in any of this anymore. Unless a factory race team, a car manufacturer, or someone with some SERIOUS knowledge, facilities, money, and engineering capability tells me numbers, I just take it all with a GIANT grain of salt.
I just changed my GT-one 5.0 exhaust for an ARC. The piping on the ARC is slightly bigger. Is that better on a supercharged engine? I have no idea.
dave you are right on the money.....a lot of these backyard tuner guys do not have the resources or are willing to spend the 30-50k to get the proper design and get them tested on an engine dyno.
The people with deep pockets auch as Honda can afford to really r and d and design something that actually really gain.
How do you like your Arc? and how does it sound compared to your gt rom? and video clips?
The people with deep pockets auch as Honda can afford to really r and d and design something that actually really gain.
How do you like your Arc? and how does it sound compared to your gt rom? and video clips?
I like the ARC. It is a very different sound than my 5.0. It's deeper, but it is smooth. I actually didn't expect it to be this good. I did it mainly because it weighs 12 pounds. But the sound is surprisingly nice. I prefer the pitch of the GT-Rom above 6K, I prefer the ARC below 6K. The ARC is slightly louder down the highway with the GT-Rom's valve closed, slightly quieter with the valve open.
Cool post some videos of some drive bys and some revs....I want to hear it....I am sure the gruppe m version 3 titanium would have sounded awesome too if they still made it.
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And exactly what powerband was the NA1 "header" designed for?:wink:
Sometimes design is about compromise and cost, so just because something was designed by the OEM doesnt necessarily make it better than an aftermarket part. Part cost vs performance may be key to understanding why a part was designed the way it was by the OEM. OEM's have price targets for a product, so that they can hopefully remain marketable in their target market. There is also perceived customer value by the customer which can be hard to gage. Sometimes what they produce may not be the optimum design but rather a trade off somewhere between part cost and performance.
I agree with you on this, what is important is the area under the curve.
