Somewhat NSX track newb question(s)

[BBYJGTC]

I have had my NSX for about a year and a half. I have tracked it at Nelson Ledges 3 times now(as of Fri 6-19). My problem is that I do not feel as if I can get comfortable with the car. I have a 2003 Accord Sedan with the suspension and brakes done. I have tracked it about 7 times in the last 4 years. I also have attended the Mid-Ohio 1 day High Performance School. With it I got comfortable within several laps and began really pushing the car. Without further power and tire work the car will realistically will not go any faster. I find the car a blast to track and am "comfortable" with pushing it to its edge.
With the NSX I find myself feeling almost frightened to push it at all. I have friends with Preludes and Civic Si's that I can hang with in my Accord that leave me in their dust when I am in the NSX. My wife believes that if I attend the 3 day school at Mid-Ohio with the NSX I will be able to get rid of the uneasiness.
Before I go and save up for and spend the $2k on the school, I want some input on this. Is it normal for me to feel this way? I understand that I have only known front wheel drive and that moving to a car with handling as good as an NSX is large jump. Has anyone else run into this before? I hate owning my dream car and not be able to use it for its purpose.
End rant.

 

[docjohn]

If your car is aligned within spec, has good tires(at propper pressure),has all routine maintainance,such as brake pads fluids refreshed,then you are the issue.First don't fret about how slow you think you are in the nsx.Forget speed and how your buds smoke you.You need seat time,with a good instructer who has midengine car experience,preferably the nsx.You should by all means take a formal school if finances allow.If something is telling you the car can go faster but you can't make it do so,well at least you have'nt proved yourself wrong by stuffing the car into a guardrail:wink: Take your time,talk to and get to know some of your regions nsx track regulars,and build your confidance.

 

[VBNSX]

the nsx is a very wonderful car to learn... as doc mentioned above... just get all your stuff in line and hopefully get lined up with a good instructor.

Also know that a fwd is actually much easier (imo) to learn to drive (not pro) than a mid/rear...

Drive the nsx... just take your time and learn the aspects of it... if you want to drive it.. then drive it and enjoy your time.. regardless of what other people around you are doing.

cheers,
x

 

[stuntman]

The Mid-engine, RWD platform is quite a bit different to drive than a front-engine, FWD, heavy sedan which for the most part, understeers.

+1 on Johns comments on the condition/situation you have with the NSX, I will re-emphasize the alignment, tire pressures, tire model and size.

How much track experience do you have with any RWD car?

 

[jtower]

the nsx will definitely take some getting used to compared to a fwd car but ultimately is more rewarding to drive. a couple of things in addition to the previous comments:

1. if possible get a ride with a more experienced driver in their nsx. this may not be easy to find but worth it. chin motorsports would be the ideal group to run with as they have two nsxs but they won't be at mid-ohio again until 2010.

2. if you're nervous about oversteer you might consider disconnecting the rear swaybar, this will increase body roll a bit but make the rear end more planted. my car is currently set up this way (by the previous owner) but now that i'm used to the car's dynamics i'm hooking it back up to loosen up the handling.

best of luck, the nsx is a wonderful track car when driven properly. i took several people for rides when i was at the track this past weekend and everyone raved about it. i'll be at nelson ledges for the 24 hours of lemons race in october, but in the wrong acura (integra).

jason (formerly from worthington, i've bicycled many many miles thru hilliard)

 

[stuntman]

Their's a lot of weight in the back of the car to not have the rear tied together. If you are comfortable with driving it that way and have learned to adapt your driving style to it, by all means do so. Personally I would recommend a stiffer front swaybar to reduce front grip rather than taking the rear bar off. I never liked the NSX with no rear bar, but on the flip side, it's free compared to buying a larger front bar.


0.02

 

[jtower]

Their's a lot of weight in the back of the car to not have the rear tied together. If you are comfortable with driving it that way and have learned to adapt your driving style to it, by all means do so. Personally I would recommend a stiffer front swaybar to reduce front grip rather than taking the rear bar off. I never liked the NSX with no rear bar, but on the flip side, it's free compared to buying a larger front bar.


0.02

i've only been driving it that way because that's how it was delivered and i'm inherently lazy. but now that i've gotten used to the car i am hooking the rear bar back up to make it more neutral (it understeers heavily without the rear bar which makes it "easier" for a less experienced driver).

 

[BBYJGTC]

The car came with Comptech front and rear sway bars. The rear was all stiff and front mid ranged. I adjusted it to loose rear and stiff front. The car was still a little too twitchy. I have removed the rear bar for now and it did help a lot.
Thank you all for your advice. I will keep at it and start saving for the Mid-Ohio school.

 

[R13]

Yup, what all of them said.

I was fortunate enough, early on, to get paired with a good instructor who also drove an mid engined car (I have an MR2 Turbo as a track rat, he drove a stripped-out NA MR2). It really helps to have someone familiar with the Mid-rear car's ideosyncracies.

I know opinions will vary on this as well, but you might also find some local autocrosses to take the NSX to. This will let you find the limits of adhesion at a slower speed with nothing to hit (if they follow the normal course design rules). It will also familiarize you a little better with the car's handling characteristics (and you can keep the bar hooked up). You might have to buff out some cone rash if you get too overzealous, but it's better than a wall/tire barrier.

 

[NSXLuvr]

I will keep at it and start saving for the Mid-Ohio school.

I spun twice my first wknd at the track. I was on a stock suspension and had owned my beloved NSX for all of 2 weeks(My wife thought it was great gift to sign me up for a DE).

Btw, why can't just do a few DE's? That would be cheaper than doing a $2000 driving school. IMHO, it takes time(wknds) to get comfortable with the speed, handling, braking of a NSX.

P.S. I think you would be making a HUGE mistake if you decided to not track the NSX. The track is where the NSX really shines(once you sort out the suspension)

 

[dquarasr2]

Yup, what all of them said.

I was fortunate enough, early on, to get paired with a good instructor who also drove an mid engined car (I have an MR2 Turbo as a track rat, he drove a stripped-out NA MR2). It really helps to have someone familiar with the Mid-rear car's ideosyncracies.

I know opinions will vary on this as well, but you might also find some local autocrosses to take the NSX to. This will let you find the limits of adhesion at a slower speed with nothing to hit (if they follow the normal course design rules). It will also familiarize you a little better with the car's handling characteristics (and you can keep the bar hooked up). You might have to buff out some cone rash if you get too overzealous, but it's better than a wall/tire barrier.

I had experience similar to the OP when I first tracked my NSX. I didn't feel comfortable with the way the rear end felt. I autocrossed it and found it was very catchable, very easy to drive tail-out. However, that didn't make me any more comfortable at much higher track speeds.

So then I analyzed my driving style. I changed technique. Since it always felt like the rear end was "floaty" from turn-in to track-out, I started braking a wee bit earlier and rolling onto the throttle as I turned in to keep weight on the tail. The car went from always ready to oversteer to fully planted. As I got more comfortable and was able to feed in more and more throttle, I actually ended up experiencing understeer at corner exit.

Try adjusting driving style. Then later if you change anything on the car you may have to adjust driving technique again to match the new handling characteristics.

 

[pgilliam1]

I'm right there with the OP. I just had my first track event with my NSX. I have tracked my BMW many times and could have left my NSX in the dust with it. The NSX is a very different car and it's characteristics have to be learned. I was shocked at my lack of ability with this car. That said, the NSX still impresses me more than any car I've ever driven (except the Porsche turbo, which I can't afford). Time will tell if I get the feel for it, but I know it's not the car! Happy Motoring!

 

[nsxnut]

Any Good instructor should be able to help.
The nsx isn't that different than other cars. Basic laws of physics still apply.

The nsx driven correctly can be very quick.

Horse power won't make up for driver ability.

There is no substitute for seat time. If you are driving or catching a ride.
If you are on track always drive the line, "cool down lap, slow speed laps etc."

In the beginning after I completed around 6 or 7 track events...
I got a supercharger. Wanted to get around the corvetts.
Ok little more power going down the straights.
Supercharger did not improve my lap times.
I needed to drive better in the corners.

Go drive. Enjoy the car.

Hope this helps.

Later,
Don

 

[docjohn]

Don, great point and honest statement that the blower did not help overall laptime at that point in your developement! That is a hard pill to swallow for many novice and intermediates who feel that hp alone will get em around faster

 

[pgilliam1]

In the beginning after I completed around 6 or 7 track events...
I got a supercharger. Wanted to get around the corvetts.
Ok little more power going down the straights.
Supercharger did not improve my lap times.
I needed to drive better in the corners.

Agreed! Until your at controlled traction loss levels throughout the track, no need for more power.

I was wondering if you trackies use your TCS or not? I did and found that it was fairly agreeable (only kicked in a few times when overaccellerating out of a turn - and glad it did) .

 

[docjohn]

tcs off please.Don't learn with it,because later on down the road shutting it off may get inside your head.It is a pretty archaic system anyway compared to most modern sports cars.

 

[NSXLuvr]

I was wondering if you trackies use your TCS or not? I did and found that it was fairly agreeable (only kicked in a few times when overaccellerating out of a turn - and glad it did) .

On a 1991 - I would leave it off. Supposedely the 1997+ models have a bit better system that is not AS sensitive. I still drive with it off. I have noticed a couple of times that I forgot to turn it off and it would kick in on moderate speed sweepers when I want the car to be neutral or rotate a bit more.

 

[nsxnut]

Agreed! Until your at controlled traction loss levels throughout the track, no need for more power.

I was wondering if you trackies use your TCS or not? I did and found that it was fairly agreeable (only kicked in a few times when overaccellerating out of a turn - and glad it did) .

TCS off

You need to be on the power in the corners. Once you initiate your turn roll on the power.
You can mitigate front end push buy more throttle. Never Lift.

Then the wheels "front or rear" start to slip the TCS will back off on the throttle.
This will induce throttle off oversteer. Exactly what you don't need.
Make sure to look out the review mirror to see where you are going.

 

[pgilliam1]

TCS off

You need to be on the power in the corners. Once you initiate your turn roll on the power.
You can mitigate front end push buy more throttle. Never Lift.

Won't more throttle cause more push - or are you saying enough more throttle to rotate the rear?
Rotating the rear in my BMW has gotten me in more trouble than I'd like to admit.
Anyway - It's TCS off - unless it's wet.
Thanks and Happy Motoring!

 

[CL65 Captain]

Since you are in OH - I will be instructing for the NASA HPDE July 11-12 at Mid Ohio. Spots still available but filling fast - so don't procrastinate. I have a little bit of experience with the NSX on the track. :tongue: If you do sign up, send an email to Dan Fargo requesting me. (Jim Ackerman).

Hopefully, it will be the last time I will be at Mid Ohio, since Bluegrass Motorsports Park is suppose to finally open at the beginning of Aug and it's 17 miles from my driveway. :smile:

 

[R13]

Won't more throttle cause more push - or are you saying enough more throttle to rotate the rear?
Rotating the rear in my BMW has gotten me in more trouble than I'd like to admit.
Anyway - It's TCS off - unless it's wet.
Thanks and Happy Motoring!

Honestly, an HPDE in the rain, with a good instructor, & no TCS is about the quickest way to learn. The first two schools I attended with my MR2 involved at least one day of downpour, so I was forced to be very smooth with inputs else I would have been backwards a lot. I have no TCS option with that car, so into the deep end I went . (On the road, it is probably advisable to keep the TCS on).

I doubt the NSX will rotate on throttle quite so readily as your BMW. What NSX nut says is correct though, a sudden lift mid-corner will get you into far more trouble than dipping into the throttle a bit more. Like I said, hit up an autocross and don't worry about being competitive, just find the limits while in an empty parking lot with nothing to hit except cones...then you'll know where the limits are and what it feels like to exceed them a bit.

 

[nsxnut]

Won't more throttle cause more push - or are you saying enough more throttle to rotate the rear?
Rotating the rear in my BMW has gotten me in more trouble than I'd like to admit.
Anyway - It's TCS off - unless it's wet.
Thanks and Happy Motoring!

No.
When you are on the throttle some of the weight is transfered to the rear wheels. Less force on the front tires. The trick is to not over do it.

It works wonders.

Later,
Don

 

[DCNSX]

I started out in an old '79 RX-7 (kinda front mid-engine) which was a very neutral car. But it's good you've learned some on another car. Take it easy in the NSX and work your way up to speed.

To feel more secure in the seat (assuming you don't have a harness or CG lock), try this:

First, position your seat and seat-back to the proper, comfortable position with your hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals. Power the seat and seat-back rearward about 6-8 inches. Then cinch your seatbelt as tight as you can by hand. With your right hand, reach over and quickly "snap" downward at the top of the shoulder belt, near the top. This will trigger the centrifugal lock. Continue holding the "locked" belt with your right hand and then power the seat and seat-back forward until you reach your original seating position. You will be locked in much more firmly than you're used to- make it tight! But it will feel great once you're under way.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[BBYJGTC]

I have SmartTCS so I have been running without TCS. I put a harness bar and a set of 3 inch harness' before I tracked it for the first time.
CL65 Captain: I would love to go to Mid-Ohio but don't have the money right now. After my buddy flipped his car on the 19th at the track we(my wife and I) have decided we need to get HPDE insurance. That will add around $180 to my future track days.
I will keep up with the HPDEs and start going to Auto-x with the NSX and slowly gain some trust in me and my car.
Thanks again for all the advice.

 

[CL65 Captain]

I have SmartTCS so I have been running without TCS. I put a harness bar and a set of 3 inch harness' before I tracked it for the first time.
CL65 Captain: I would love to go to Mid-Ohio but don't have the money right now. After my buddy flipped his car on the 19th at the track we(my wife and I) have decided we need to get HPDE insurance. That will add around $180 to my future track days.
I will keep up with the HPDEs and start going to Auto-x with the NSX and slowly gain some trust in me and my car.
Thanks again for all the advice.

I have State Farm and they will cover an HPDE as long as I am not racing or Time Trials.