So what about the rumored Baby NSX?

[N Spec]

Ever since the patent drawings were shown from Honda, I've been curious to the level seriousness for the potentially rumored baby NSX - S2000 successor. The same thing occurred to the new NSX, in which the patent drawings were filed and soon enough the infamous NSX 2.0 development was on tour across the country/world, etc.

This concept filed by Honda is a good looking car for sure and definitely has the original NSX's DNA along with homages to the S2000, particular the front hood shape, but it's very first gen NSX-like with a very similar C pillar and side profile. My question is will it get it's own sub-forum here on prime since it's so similar? If in fact the patents come to fruition like the new NSX.

Consistent rumors are RWD 300+ hp from the CTR engine along with similar electric motors like the new NSX. Projected costs are between $50-60K and up - much more affordable than the new NSX.

Honda has been rather quiet about the baby NSX which is logical as they wouldn't want to steal the thunder from the halo car, but now that the new NSX is slowly rolling on the road, I think it's almost time for them to reveal the new model.

I spent some free time over the last several weeks creating a NURBS 3D model from the patent diagrams. I changed a few things to my taste, but it was a nice exterior study. So, I figured I would share some quick renders I put together for context of what the new model would look like as it has only been photoshopped from what I've seen online.

A brief video of my Process:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/dW_QQsJxFeM" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Also I remember someone posting a pic of a small concept clay model that resembled this mini-NSX concept in a Honda Design Studio, but I can't seem to find that pic anymore. If anyone has that pic, please repost it!

 

[nsx#fan]

Nice job, very cool!

 

[chrisn]

This is Awesome! Fun project. I suggest adding a simplicity-destroying dimple in middle of driver's door for physical key.

At first glance, the doors also seem too short. Perhaps you accurately modeled reality, but it seems that they should be longer-- even if they need to incorporate the leading edge of the side blades--- or compress the overall length of the side blades a bit.

 

[Hothonda]

ZSX new Honda trademark

http://www.carscoops.com/2016/08/honda-trademarks-zsx-nameplate-is-it.html

 

[N Spec]

ZSX new Honda trademark

http://www.carscoops.com/2016/08/honda-trademarks-zsx-nameplate-is-it.html

Nice! ZSX sounds cool. It' the N rotated sideways to Z.

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This is Awesome! Fun project. I suggest adding a simplicity-destroying dimple in middle of driver's door for physical key.

At first glance, the doors also seem too short. Perhaps you accurately modeled reality, but it seems that they should be longer-- even if they need to incorporate the leading edge of the side blades--- or compress the overall length of the side blades a bit.

Thanks. Yea, if you look at this photoshop render that truer to the concept:

The door handle is further back with the longer door. But the buttress and grill would be in the way of grabbing the handle...

 

[JD Cross]

Sounds like Honda wants to set the stage for a mid-engined car positioned perhaps a like the Cayman to the 911.
Makes sense to leak out the word that something may be in the planning stages.
However would be very surprised if it were to come to pass anytime soon - they've got an NSX to produce first.

Am hoping Honda does a front engine rear drive sedan/coupe first to help the Acura marque compete with the Europeans and sell some higher volume.

 

[fastaussie]

i agree with JD, i wouldn't think Honda will make anything like that for at least a few years...

 

[simplife]

Also I remember someone posting a pic of a small concept clay model that resembled this mini-NSX concept in a Honda Design Studio, but I can't seem to find that pic anymore. If anyone has that pic, please repost it!

Do you mean this one from the R&D facility in Silicon Valley?

 

[goldNSX]

Am hoping Honda does a front engine rear drive sedan/coupe first to help the Acura marque compete with the Europeans and sell some higher volume.

The rumor is that they are using the Civic Type R 2.0 engine with electric rear wheel motors. But it's highly unlikely then that the car will looks like this because the main cooling would be in the front of the car. For a S2000 sucessor it should be topless. I'm pretty sure Honda won't canibalize the NSX like McLaren does with their cars.

 

[N Spec]

Thank you simplife for re-posting that! This just adds some extra legitimacy that it's been in the works even if it's not transparent like the NSX.

JD and FA:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-s2000-successor-coming-in-2018-91816.html

"A large complement of R&D staff from Japan are already in Ohio working on the car. They have more time now that the NSX is finished," revealed an anonymous inside source in an interview with Car & Driver.

Honda was started 70 years ago and incorporated 68 years ago. So as per the rumor is in 2018, the "ZSX" may debut. Probably the near production model sometime next year. Just my guess.

 

[JD Cross]

Thank you simplife for re-posting that! This just adds some extra legitimacy that it's been in the works even if it's not transparent like the NSX.

JD and FA:

http://www.leftlanenews.com/honda-s2000-successor-coming-in-2018-91816.html

"A large complement of R&D staff from Japan are already in Ohio working on the car. They have more time now that the NSX is finished," revealed an anonymous inside source in an interview with Car & Driver.

Honda was started 70 years ago and incorporated 68 years ago. So as per the rumor is in 2018, the "ZSX" may debut. Probably the near production model sometime next year. Just my guess.

You may well be right about a 2018 launch.
What puzzles me is this a car to add some spark to the Honda car line?
That would help in the US/Can/Mex/China/HK where Honda is a separate marque but the rest of the world is all Honda and those markets have the Honda NSX.

I think the S2000 sold about 8K units in the US at it's peak.
Would Honda expect similar sales for a 4 cylinder mid-engined car?
A number of global Honda markets have the new turbo Civic now so would this mid-engined car compete with the Civic?

I still think Honda/Acura would be better off with a front engine rear drive sedan to compete with Lexus and the Europeans in volume rather than another niche market mid-engined car.
Time will tell.

 

[goldNSX]

Honda needs a convertable in their car line. The new NSX won't be a convertable, maybe Targa at best. If they use the existing Civic turbo engine it will be a FWD as there's no room for it in the rear if it's a convertable. But rear electric motors could fit in the rear. So the so called Baby NSX is more likely to be a S2000 successor and should named a such, not Baby NSX. Just another mid-engined car (NSX, S660) won't do the trick. My hope is high as the new Honda President heads in the right direction (as opposed to the former one).

One disturbing thing is that the car is rumored to be produced in Ohio as well.

 

[fastaussie]

"A large complement of R&D staff from Japan are already in Ohio working on the car. They have more time now that the NSX is finished," revealed an anonymous inside source in an interview with Car & Driver.

Honda was started 70 years ago and incorporated 68 years ago. So as per the rumor is in 2018, the "ZSX" may debut. Probably the near production model sometime next year. Just my guess.

don't forget about the other quote at the bottom of that article, "if the rumour is accurate"...

 

[Elistan]

I'd be quite happy with a Honda that has 718 S performance for about $20k less.

• CTR 2.0 turbo engine, NSX battery tech primarily for torque-fill, peak 350 hp combined, MR.
• ZSX Sport - convertible, 6spd manual, magneto shocks, basic amenities (two-speaker stereo, focus on light weight, etc.)
• ZSX GT - fastback, 7spd DCT, additional sound insulation, magneto shocks, luxury amenities (multi-speaker sound system, sat nav, dual climate control, driver's aids, heated seats and steering wheel, etc.)
• ZSX CR - fastback, 7spd DCT, light weight, basic amenities, statically tuned shocks with 20mm lower suspension than Sport.

I don't know how Honda does it, but the Civic Hybrid is under 2900 lbs - assuming torque-fill duties can be handled by a similarly sized battery pack, such a car as above for under 3000 lbs for the Sport and CR models would be awesome.

Or even 911 S performance for 718 S cost.

 

[SW2 Heritage Cars]

This thing looks, dare I say, even more exotic than the new NSX. If that shape makes it to production, I'm a buyer.

 

[N Spec]

I still think Honda/Acura would be better off with a front engine rear drive sedan to compete with Lexus and the Europeans in volume rather than another niche market mid-engined car.
Time will tell.

Perhaps for an increase in market share, it may be the best move. However I support the mid-engine movement if they are bold enough to take the road lesser traveled and not saturate the market with more FR sedans for the luxury market.

don't forget about the other quote at the bottom of that article, "if the rumour is accurate"...

Back in the 2011, C&D reported rumors of a mid-engine NSX in development. January 2012, the NSX concept debuted. They've been pretty accurate so far. The patent paperwork and trademarks registered are not exactly done for fun either...

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I'd be quite happy with a Honda that has 718 S performance for about $20k less.

• CTR 2.0 turbo engine, NSX battery tech primarily for torque-fill, peak 350 hp combined, MR.
• ZSX Sport - convertible, 6spd manual, magneto shocks, basic amenities (two-speaker stereo, focus on light weight, etc.)
• ZSX GT - fastback, 7spd DCT, additional sound insulation, magneto shocks, luxury amenities (multi-speaker sound system, sat nav, dual climate control, driver's aids, heated seats and steering wheel, etc.)
• ZSX CR - fastback, 7spd DCT, light weight, basic amenities, statically tuned shocks with 20mm lower suspension than Sport.

I don't know how Honda does it, but the Civic Hybrid is under 2900 lbs - assuming torque-fill duties can be handled by a similarly sized battery pack, such a car as above for under 3000 lbs for the Sport and CR models would be awesome.

Or even 911 S performance for 718 S cost.

Coupes tend to weight more than sedans because of stringent safety reinforcement. I think a conservative estimate would be around 3200-3300 lbs for a hybrid SH-AWD CTR powerplant in a car of this size.

 

[JD Cross]

Perhaps for an increase in market share, it may be the best move. However I support the mid-engine movement if they are bold enough to take the road lesser traveled and not saturate the market with more FR sedans for the luxury market.

Not for market share per se and not about going where no man has gone before.
It's about being practical.
Honda is a large company with large R&D/overhead costs plus a global dealer network that needs competitive volume cars.
It may be trendy to make a bunch of niche MR vehicles to please a very small market segment but that won't keep your doors open if you're the size of Honda.

Honda and Toyota own the FWD reliable transportation market segment with the Accord/Civic/Corolla/Camry.
GM/Ford/FCA own the pickup/large SUV segment.
Germany owns the luxury sedan/SUV segment.

If you were directing Honda's growth what guidance would you provide for growth and margins?
More Accords/Civics?
Pickups/Large SUV's?
Luxury sedans/SUV's?
Or niche MR vehicles?

So how much growth and margin can you get with incremental Accords/Civics - not much, pretty mature market.
Doing pick-ups /large SUV's means taking on the big three in rural North America with a Japanese brand - very difficult.

Seems to me the easiest path forward is the luxury sedan/SUV market.
The big three aren't a factor, it's the Germans and Lexus.

You're back in F1
You've got the NSX to start the brand image rebuild.
Next up I'd suggest FR luxury sedans/coupes.
Lots of growth and margin potential

 

[Elistan]

Coupes tend to weight more than sedans because of stringent safety reinforcement. I think a conservative estimate would be around 3200-3300 lbs for a hybrid SH-AWD CTR powerplant in a car of this size.

True. At this price level I'd prefer a strictly MR car rather than an NSX style SH-AWD. The lack of a front Twin Motor Unit should save a significant amount of cost and weight. (Although that does present a problem - KERS recharging level would be lower since only the rear wheels would be involved, meaning the battery pack might not be recharged enough to handle multiple track laps. Hmm, I wonder what would be possible with an MR car if the rear was strictly the petrol engine, no Direct Drive Motor, but the front gets the TMU for torque fill and torque vectoring without contributing much to peak power...)

 

[N Spec]

You're back in F1
You've got the NSX to start the brand image rebuild.
Next up I'd suggest FR luxury sedans/coupes.
Lots of growth and margin potential

I don't disagree with you at all with that logic. However, I still support the mid-engine movement for the S2000 successor haha. Maybe after that they will introduce some RWD cars, but I think the Hybrid SH-AWD will be the mainstream for Acura...

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True. At this price level I'd prefer a strictly MR car rather than an NSX style SH-AWD. The lack of a front Twin Motor Unit should save a significant amount of cost and weight. (Although that does present a problem - KERS recharging level would be lower since only the rear wheels would be involved, meaning the battery pack might not be recharged enough to handle multiple track laps. Hmm, I wonder what would be possible with an MR car if the rear was strictly the petrol engine, no Direct Drive Motor, but the front gets the TMU for torque fill and torque vectoring without contributing much to peak power...)

It seems like anything is possible for either of those configurations along with a solely ICE powered mid-engine CTR option at this point. One thing I would be surprised with is if they offered a manual gearbox. I don't think it will be available at the volume that typical MR cars are offered.

 

[JD Cross]

However, I still support the mid-engine movement for the S2000 successor haha. Maybe after that they will introduce some RWD cars, but I think the Hybrid SH-AWD will be the mainstream for Acura...

I agree if Honda is going to position a car below the NSX (like an S2000 replacement) it should be MR.
Maybe the NSX chassis in some form can be used and the ZSX would be like the entry level Porsche 718.
So far so good, but for 8K units a year (S2000 volumes in the US (maybe 20 K globally) I wonder if it would pay for itself?
You can live with the NSX cost for 2500 global units a year because it's your halo car but 8-10K units US (20K globally) of an entry level MR, I'm not sure.
The ZSX would be a nice icing on the cake entry for Honda, if they can afford it.

I'm thinking more about Honda wanting to reposition the Acura marque
If they stick with FWD SH-AWD, as you suggest, I think they'll be marginalized in the luxury sedan segment.
The FWD gas/rear electric RLX hasn't been a sales success so far.
Front engine/rear drive with front electric is perhaps too much weight up front.

A front engine/rear drive TLX with the 75 degree NSX V6 in NA form and say with 370 hp would be a real BMW/MB/Audi/Lexus competitor and change the Acura image nicely.
I'd buy one

 

[ImolaOrange03]

I'm speculating that the price will be starting in the low $70,000. Higher with the options

 

[fastaussie]

A front engine/rear drive TLX with the 75 degree NSX V6 in NA form and say with 370 hp would be a real BMW/MB/Audi/Lexus competitor and change the Acura image nicely. I'd buy one

the plan is to keep the NSX motor specific to only the NSX no?

 

[JD Cross]

the plan is to keep the NSX motor specific to only the NSX no?

No idea FA.
Just thinking they've got the engine and if they put it in the front of a sedan with rear drive and a reasonable tune it would help the marque

 

[N Spec]

A non turbo or even SOHC version of the motor would keep it NSX exclusive. However, I foresee them using a J motor before that route tho... It's really wishful thinking for the 3.5 V6 in FR platform either way but it would be welcomed.

$70K is plausible also. I think it depends on the level of emotors used.

 

[urbanglowcam]

I spent some free time over the last several weeks creating a NURBS 3D model from the patent diagrams. I changed a few things to my taste, but it was a nice exterior study. So, I figured I would share some quick renders I put together for context of what the new model would look like as it has only been photoshopped from what I've seen online.

Nice job N Spec! I also wanted to bring the patent drawings to life but didn't have the skills to do it. You came very close to the drawings with the exception that it doesn't look as elongated as the patents would show. I think the black bottom trim surrounding the car adds even more to the illusion of making it slender, which you seemed to color match to the rest of the body panels. Lastly, (and this is open to interpretation) the rear section under the taillights doesn't appear to be part of the housing, but actually the glass material like the S660.

All in all, solid work and thanks for sharing. :biggrin: