So this is how it starts...

The real key is that the NSX is weak for TQ and it's delivery of TQ or it's powerband is linear, not flat like my other car.

NSX just begs for more and more.
Bats, we're talking about track performance. Once you spend some decent time on the track I think you might come to the same conclusion as us; that is that power adders (torque and/or wHP) takes a back seat compared to many other things.

If I was more a track rat, i'd have done the Type R gearbox instead of the Supercharger. I installed my SC for the street because its fun. It's actually a constant point of worry and mild stress while on the track. It's gotten a lot better now that i've got the IATs under control and the tune sorted more or less.

To Ben - Unless a SC will really make you happy off-track don't put one in if you plan to track your car a lot. I had to jump thru flaming hoops to get my setup to run properly. $0.02
 
To Ben - Unless a SC will really make you happy off-track don't put one in if you plan to track your car a lot. I had to jump thru flaming hoops to get my setup to run properly. $0.02

Thanks for the insight. Perhaps better to mod for on-track reliability and save my pennies for NSX 2.0.
 
You guys are making my point for me but you do not realize it.

look at it this way, if you had a spec miata that you know how to drive at 10/10ths you will still be driving around a track in a slow car (sorry spec miata guys, but the truth hurts sometimes). The difference is you can learn how to drive upto and on the edge at a very slow speed. The edge is the edge it does not matter what you are driving, you are much more likely to not only survive but recover and save the car in a slower car while you learn, period. No one wants to hurt their car or themselves but the faster the car the more danger you put yourself in, you are actually much safer in a slower car at 9/10ths than you are in a faster car at 7/10ths. In that faster car things just happen faster and you have not learned what to do and what not to do when you venture near or over the edge. Every time you make your car faster, handle better, or stop better you are expanding the performance envelope of the car by a huge percentage and the driver has to play catch up.

You really want to learn car control in a safe way, put on the street tires and hit the track in the rain, the 10/10ths limit comes at about half the speed of a dry track but since you are going so slow it is actually a lot safer. You can learn car control skills in the wet that are not really attainable on a dry track, but are needed when something goes wrong. I have seen guys save themselves and others because they know what to do when the crap hits the fan. Drive at 80% and you never learn what to do when you drop two wheels off, have a full off, spin on track, spin off track, have a flat, have someone turn in on you, run through oil or coolant, these things happen and not being prepared for them is what makes this hobby dangerous for you and others. I know this because this was me, I drove my car at 80% and to go faster I would move the performance limit by improving the car. The thing is 80% of a car that can do 155 MPH at Road Atlanta is down right dangerous compared to 100% of a car that does 115 MPH (sorry again Miata guys).

Dave
 
Right. I consider the NSX a "slower car" compared to what most people are tracking these days (modern stock Corvettes, M3s, 911s etc) - in a way it's almost the "Miata" of mid engine super cars (some of my hardcore GFCP Club buddies have Ferraris, McLaren 12Cs, etc; I always told them the NSX was a great "starter exotic")

So what you're saying is, rather than making the car faster (so that driving it at 80% is also faster), you should learn to drive it at 90% completely safely and comfortably?
 
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So what you're saying is, rather than making the car faster (so that driving it at 80% is also faster), you should learn to drive it at 90% completely safely and comfortably?

You got it! The good news is you get to be a better driver, learn more at a safer speed, learn faster, and you save a but load of money on mods you would have never learned to use.

Dave

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Could anyone please recommend an instructor in the Tampa bay FL area?
Thanks.

Check with Chen motorsports and see if they have any NSX drivers left. They had a few NSX guys that were very fast a few years back that might be able to help you.
 
lots of good advice.For the novice level I would not dismiss the local instructor pool.While it is true that most if not all of the regular instructors at your local hpde do not have any standardized accreditation or training some do have very good teaching qualities that can be very helpful to the novice.The Billy Johnson level coach i think has a better roi when you have reached the intermediate to advanced level and really are lost as to why your times have plateaued.It is important for you to network at the track to find those guys who are the standout instructors,and hopefully with mid-engine experience. Best of luck.
 
I took my NSX to the track for the first time this weekend (having never been on track before in every car) and hoooly moly - I'm hooked!

And I realize now this is how it starts with the mods - I used to think I was pretty happy with the NSX the way it was, and that it was fast enough for the street (true) but when you get left for dead by a Cayman in the straights... well... you start browsing SoS website with a whole different perspective, let's put it that way.

Skip to 11:40 to see "why Ben needs a supercharger"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHR7MDAJKqU

I have a new appreciation for my car and a huge motivation to build my own skills now. Look forward to spending more time in this section of the forum!
I suggest getting this book -> http://www.amazon.com/Going-Faster-...8&qid=1392830384&sr=8-1&keywords=drive+faster

I've learned a lot about driving and car set-up by reading book. You may also want to find some F1 coverage. Those guys know how to use the "line" to their advantage. Finally. tracking is fun (I used to race motocross), but you must be willing to put out $$$
 
Check with Chen motorsports and see if they have any NSX drivers left. They had a few NSX guys that were very fast a few years back that might be able to help you.

I wonder if you think with good enough GoPro video + data logging, "remote coaching" might be possible?
 
OP, these guys are giving you amazing advice. Post #10 by DDozier and post #19 from illwillem should be in the wiki page for beginner track drivers, great posts guys.

Let me throw in my 2 cents. I know you don't want to get passed by slower cars and want to get away from everybody in the straights and then just somehow get through the turns. But you can just do that at the drag strip. You need to want to improve every aspect of racing at the track, not just the straights, in which case a supercharger is really just a bandaid for the straights, yes your car is now faster, but you are no better at driving your car. I lean towards the 80% driving all the time too, but understand that as you get more feel and experience in the car, your limits will increase too and that 80% will keep getting faster and faster. Think of a novice spinning out in a turn at 40mph and a pro in the same car making it look easy at 70mph. Their limits are different, and the pro may still be driving at 80% even at 70 through that turn but his feel for the car is so much better that he is still within his "comfort zone" at speeds that make a rookie flip his car. So like all these guys have said, seat time, seat time, tutoring, reading, seat time, tutoring, etc. You don't want to be the guy going 150mph down the straights and then looking like a goofball around the corners, a balance approach is better, and turning doesn't have to be unsafe, just work your way up slowly and you'll always be in your comfort zone as you gain feel for the car. Ayrton Senna could go faster than anybody because he had an unbelievable feel for the car. Didn't matter what car anymore, it was just in him. You can't take your supercharger with you but you can take your knowledge, feel and experience with you into any future car too.
 
You don't want to be the guy going 150mph down the straights and then looking like a goofball around the corners, a balance approach is better, and turning doesn't have to be unsafe, just work your way up slowly and you'll always be in your comfort zone as you gain feel for the car. Ayrton Senna could go faster than anybody because he had an unbelievable feel for the car. Didn't matter what car anymore, it was just in him. You can't take your supercharger with you but you can take your knowledge, feel and experience with you into any future car too.

Thanks for your input. That ^ belongs on the wiki as well.
 
Folks the OP also DD his NSX, so yes a SOS SC is needed. :)

Batman.......you're lost........this is a thread about Track experience/advice not a street racing thread......... Have you still not taken your "world Record lowest price to mileage ration NSX" to the track??
 
Thanks bngl3rt, it would be nice to hear from stuntman here too, that would almost complete all the hardcore nsx track guys on prime. All my track days have been with my previous car so I'm going into my next track day as a newbie in the nsx and can use as many pointers as possible too.
 
I wonder if you think with good enough GoPro video + data logging, "remote coaching" might be possible?

Not likely, without the knowledge to communicate with the coach you have no point of refference when he offers up the advice. This is the advantage of a ride along and a coaching session. He can quickly feel what you are doing wrong and show you how to do it right. Once you get to a more advanced level then video and data are great tools to share track info and vehical setup, but in the beginning you really need to be taught how to do it in teh moment.

Dave
 
Wow this is a great thread. As usual I'm late to this party (was out of town, just now catching up on Prime).

OP: I disagree that the Cayman walked you due to power. It appears in the original video that it passed at the apex of a turn. On the next straightaway it did not appear to be gaining ground, so your car and it accelerated similarly. Then, at the next turn it walked you again, and so on. It's corner entry, apex, and exit speeds, not straightaway speeds (HP/TQ). Supporting all the great advice in this thread.

Regarding autocross, I have to disagree again. In my experience, autocross actually helps with car control, looking way far ahead, and being smooth (MPH in transitions, which seemingly comprise 90% of most autocross courses, can be much higher when driver input is smooth). There are ways to being aggressive in an autocross that are jerky (and that might actually scrub speed), and ways to be aggressive BUT STILL smooth. I will admit, though, that I did have to unlearn shuffle steer since it was holding back my confidence to recover from getting out of shape in very high-speed turns on track, it's so much easier to correct if you're not shuffling.

Anyways, some fantastic advice. This is a great thread and proved to be very enjoyable reading. Thanks, Prime!
 
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Lots of great advise here.
Being a senior instructor and the DE 2 Asst Group leader for NASA-AZ, my advise is to do a few mods that are important that will help make the car easier to manage and then you'll feel more confident with the car on track.
Better brake pads, tires, shocks, sway bars, non compliance front clamps, rear beam bushing and toe links.
Then learn to drive it. As others have said, it's all about seat time.
You'll know when it's time to step up the power level and then your skills will be ready to take on a whole new level of going faster.
Its not how fast you go, it's how long you can go fast in control and safely.
One step at a time...

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Coz will have a lot of input too. He arguably has the most real track hours in an NSX.

450+ sessions in TT Big Bore, TA's, DE Ride Alongs and in various other capacities in the last 5 years alone in my NSX.
I guess you can say I spend a lot of time on track loving every minute of it. Where else can you have so much fun with your clothes on :-)
It's all about having fun and going home in one piece, no matter how fast you go there will always be some faster and some slower than you.
 
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Great Info above.
I hope my engine is the last thing I ever modify. It's bullet proof and perfect for my level of driving.

Aside from instruction and seat time, the most dramatic mod for me was a harness system because it holds me in place so I can steer and operate the pedals. Some say a harness system is the very first mod and I agree.

It's also like strapping the nsx on like a back pack - talk about feeling connected.

With the all the advise above, you'll:

Drive with the caman without additional horsepower
Pass lot's of higher HP cars
Have an engine that lasts
And have extra money for track time, instruction and maybe tastefull suspension/brake mods

Enjoying this thread even if I have yet to break my track cherry and am not in an express hurry to do so yet. My NSX's prior owner broke the car's cherry however, installing a comptech harness and taking it to 7/10th's two or three times at a track on or near Long Island while babying it somewhat in the turns to keep it off the run-out area... Silver2002's post really struck a chord with me and I was hoping to read more in this thread about "improving your car's performance with a harness." I totally get it. My NSX came with the Comptech harness installed and the PO insisted I buckle into it when I drove it home last May, for the "full enjoyment effect." I really couldn't absorb the effects of the harness because I was too busy being overwhelmed from finally driving "my" NSX as well as it really being the first time I'd driven any NSX for more than 10 minutes. After crossing into NJ and taking a quick pitstop, I didn't rebuckle back into the harness since my gut felt it wouldn't be smart to run the entire ride home across the state of PA on public highways while wearing a harness. Also I thought I'd feel like a complete tool even to myself since it was unlikely I'd pull more than 0.1g anywhere on the PA turnpike other than the final exit ramp 6 hours away. The NSX's seats are definitely the most comfortable yet grippy/isolating seats I'd ever experienced, but it was astounding how "loose" I felt in the seats w/o the harness. I can definitely see how much more connected one would feel when harnessed in while pushing the car towards the limit.

Somewhere above in this thread, someone talked about Senna's unbelievable feel for his car. Some or a lot of that has to be from being harnessed in. I love the idea of going faster "smartly" by pushing the limits first in simple things like driver education & tools like a harness and tires before paying up for power. Would love to read more about that here?
 
The rest of my 2 cents :-)

Low HP momentum cars vs high HP fast cars.

Much different, but yet so close to being the same. You drive each one differently but look to bring out the advantages of both.

I have been on track many times with low HP momentum cars that were harder than hell to catch and pass on shorter tracks. Some I never catch, LOL.

When I started racing tracking, I started off with low HP cars and became a momentum driver with the theory fast is smooth and smooth is fast. That's how I learned, that's how I teach new students.

When I stepped up to my current HP NSX, (TTU, 558 rwhp) I had to start learning to drive a little differently and it was a new learning curve I'm just now starting to fully understand. I'm being coached on track by our NASA-AZ Regional Director and Multi time NASA National TTU Champion Tage Evanson to understand the differences and how to get the best of both worlds out of it. You should never stopped being coached. You stop learning if you do.

A momentum driver depending on the track can stay on the throttle more, be on the throttle sooner and maintain more of a momentum of time and speed in & out of corners and on the track as a whole. Much better technique for a shorter track. Try keeping up with a well prepped Civic or Integra on a real short track with a high HP car, they are momentum driving since they have very little Torq and HP and they can be faster than hell. Watch Will's video's if you doubt that :-)

The HP car has the advantage of power, torq, coming out of corners thus giving the high HP car more momentum of speed and time down the straight to the next corner, longer tracks. A momentum car may have a faster entry speed than a high HP car, but where power comes into play is exit speed. The "In Slow, Out Fast" theory now enters the picture. That's only where part of the time is gained.

Then comes late threshold braking other wise you give that time right back, soooo... you have to have better brakes to slow the speed down you've just gained, not to mention learning new braking techniques at a much faster pace. More time picked up when you get it right and combine it with above.

The higher HP car you drive, the harder it is on the car and you, your reflexes have to be without thought and correct. Driving a high HP is not easy by any means as some people might think on track. The speed you carry off track is faster and you hit things harder. You can make mistakes in low HP cars and still recover that you cannot make in high HP cars and recover.

Many drivers actually run better times in a lower HP car than they do in a high HP car on the same track. I dropped 50 rwhp in 2013 and my times got 1 second better because I could get on the throttle sooner coming off the corners and the car was easier to control. Billy Johnson I'm not. I will be probably dropping another 25 to 30 later this year now that I'm learning to run slicks on track. I expect to to see a sub 2 minutes at Chuckwalla CCW next time out there or very close to it. I'm pretty sure that will be my 8/10th :-)

and.....as far as the "I" drive my NSX at 6/10, 8/10th stuff, who's are we talking about ? The 8/10th in MY own mind that's as far as I'm willing to risk my car, could be Regan's, Will's or Jim's 7/10th or 9/10th, who knows. So when someone says I drive my car at 8/10th, don't take it to heart because it really doesn't mean a whole lot from one to another.

So in my view there are two ways to get faster... learn to carry more speed through the corners (dangerous) or make the car faster down the straights (expensive but relatively safe).
 
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Lots of great advise here.
Better brake pads, tires, shocks, sway bars, non compliance front clamps, rear beam bushing and toe links.
Then learn to drive it. As others have said, it's all about seat time.
You'll know when it's time to step up the power level and then your skills will be ready to take on a whole new level of going faster.
Its not how fast you go, it's how long you can go fast in control and safely.
One step at a time...

This advice is gold, you don't need all the hot up parts however those mentioned above do not cost a lot, if you are on a budget just install different springs on the OEM shocks before going new shocks or coilovers.
I tracked my car before and after modifications the biggest thing on the car that made a difference to the handling was the rear beam bushings and the Eibach springs.
I have done everything else mentioned since but those two made the car so much more predictable at speed.
 
OP - solid driving for your first time! What have you done to your car, tires, etc...? Can't really add a whole lot to what others have said, so keep hitting the track and getting seat time.

The cayman didn't leave you from power. They are fairly even acceleration wise with an nsx. He was carrying a ton of speed through the corner as he caught you. Not sure what tires he was on but with equal tires, your car can do that.

Could anyone please recommend an instructor in the Tampa bay FL area?
Thanks.
I'm moving to West Palm in two weeks.
 
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I can tell you one in two weeks. Lance

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Billy, can you talk about the move to FL? Lance

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Billy, can you talk about the move to FL? Lance

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Billy, can you talk about the move to FL? Lance
 
haven't gone on this site for awhile and while this kind of "old topic" still drawing my attention, I'm surprised the opinions being different from time to time.

that of course, "Being a better driver" is the only stay true advise and no petrohead can argue that this is not anyone's goal, well at least at the track talk forum. I'm sure 100% people up here would not want to learn to be a worse driver.

As we all recall the joy of track driving at the very beginning... That excitement, I meant the night you loaded everything in the nsx. Going off your "to-bring" checklist. Losing sleep even you know you will be up 5am next morning. That pure excitement, I think everything else afterwards went downhill, soon after you gradually chasing lap times, modification improvements / headache, ego and others. Anyone here have good idea of how to start someone to keep that enjoyment longer??
 
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